CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #15

[Bill Carson]

You know, maybe if LE really does have physical evidence proving that SW could not have killed Bella and CeCe, CW just might confess. When confronted with the facts that LE had located the bodies, found the sheet in the field, and they knew he was having an affair, CW confessed a little bit, so maybe when confronted with irrefutable evidence disputing the rest of his false statements, he’ll tell the truth about everything. Maybe, he’s different than Scott Peterson, who when confronted with the Marina evidence, with Amber Frye truth, and his humiliating Paris phone call, continued to deny, deny, deny, and to this day, still does deny.

Was that a death penalty case? I didn't follow it.

 

[Layla123]

Was that a death penalty case? I didn't follow it.

He’s on death row, has been for years, and he’s still denying.

 

[TexasTS]

We know about cadaver dogs but does the average citizen? He may have put everyone in plastic right away and thought that took care of any issues

But remember, in CW's mind, he is the smartest one in the room and he probably figured he took care of the dog problem somehow. He seems to have been thinking that none of his actions could be connected to him in any way. Did the guy never watch ID, CSI, or any crime news? Or do these people feel they are immune to being caught or accused of anything based on their perception of their own intelligence?

 

[BeanieBod]

The trash could be ditched as he drives through Colorado searching for them. Are there mountains there? He would be strong enough to throw stuff a distance. Or deep rivers?

Maybe another oil tank or something else of that nature in his work.

I don’t know that a ransom note would work. They don’t have that kind of money

Colorado also has very aggressive littering laws as compared to other states. Heck, anyone can report littering via the internet.

From the time that SW was strangled (for the sake of argument, let's say 2:00 AM) and the time that he left the house at 5:15 AM, why was he not cleaning up the murder scene?!? I seriously doubt that he would have been able to sleep after that encounter. It would seem logical that he would have disposed of her belongings (shoes, purse, keys, phone), put the sheets in the washer instead of the trash can,, made the girls' beds, etc. He should have taken her luggage to her closet upstairs. His mistakes were mind boggling but we know from websleuths that murderers do slip up and he did so over and over and over.

 

[mtnlites]

For me it's the fact they hugged immediately. It would have been different if they had just taken the fight inside, that's a more "normal" reaction IMO.

I don't see 30 seconds to a minute later as being "immediately." That is plenty of time to say, "Ugh, they're watching. Let's just talk about this later."

 

[Bill Carson]

He’s on death row, has been for years, and he’s still denying.

Would they have spared his life if he admitted guilt?

 

[dgfred]

Layla... you got me on my knees. EC

good post

 

[BeanieBod]

But remember, in CW's mind, he is the smartest one in the room and he probably figured he took care of the dog problem somehow. He seems to have been thinking that none of his actions could be connected to him in any way. Did the guy never watch ID, CSI, or any crime news? Or do these people feel they are immune to being caught or accused of anything based on their perception of their own intelligence?

He was probably thinking a bottle of Febreze would take care of it!

 

[Coolmomof4]

I only know about cadaver dogs from following these cases, so you're right maybe run of the mill people don't.

True. I think if police said "we're bringing in dogs," most people would assume tracking dogs, not cadaver dogs.

 

[Layla123]

But remember, in CW's mind, he is the smartest one in the room and he probably figured he took care of the dog problem somehow. He seems to have been thinking that none of his actions could be connected to him in any way. Did the guy never watch ID, CSI, or any crime news? Or do these people feel they are immune to being caught or accused of anything based on their perception of their own intelligence?

I thought about that and checked SW’s favorite tv shows. She’s got Law and Order SVU there. He must not have watched with her!

 

[wyldcynic]

I 100% believe CW killed his whole family. His claim that SW killed the girls seems ridiculous to me, based on what we've seen and know about SW, the details he included don't seem accurate or likely, his reaction to her supposedly strangling them is nonsensical and implausible, the great lengths he took to cover up a crime implicate him further than what his story suggests, and on and on. But...I've watched his interviews a few times now and some of the things he says - specifically, the things he says regarding his own feelings - I don't know. They seem to have a ring to truth to them. And that's what confuses me.

There's some major dissociation going on. He says three times in one interview "I don't feel like this is even real right now/It doesn't feel like it's real/This doesn't seem real at all." Three times in the span of a few minutes. There's some psychological distress there, possibly some shock, but mostly it sounds like disbelief and denial of what happened, which I think would be less likely if the events were planned out. In another interview, "It's not something I can even fathom in my lifetime" and "It scares the living crap out of me right now just knowing that it's come to this." Then, the multiple mentions of it feeling like a "ghost town," and that staying in the house was "traumatizing," and that it felt like he was "living in a nightmare." It doesn't sound like remorse or regret to me, per se, but it sounds more like a violent episode escalated and he felt (for whatever reason - here's where logic completely fails me) he had to see it through to a terrible end.

Maybe I just can't let my brain go there; maybe it's wishful thinking. But I struggle with believing with confidence this was premeditated in a planned for weeks/months in advance kind of way. I don't know that he just snapped, but I do question if his actions went farther than his initial intentions. It seems like he almost shows some emotion when he speaks about his daughters. Not so much SW.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

I’ll add to your list of ORs..

I get the sense Shanann was the best thing that ever happened to CW. He seemed to have a social disability which prevented him from meeting people or having close intiment relationships. When she took a chance on him due to his “persistency” I think it’s possible this was the first time he felt like a hero, or was recognized as one from other people due to “loving”/“supporting” her through her health problems e.g lupus

As their relationship continued, he received more and more praise because Shanann made him more likable. She instilled confidence in him, she motived him be healthier, she motived him to lose a tremendous amount of weight and to become fit/toned/muscular— he doesn’t even look like the same guy from several years ago.

Lastly, she made him a father to two beautiful girls.

He was admired because of Shanann.
He was respected because of Shanann.
He progressed because of Shanann.
He became a man in people’s eyes because of Shanann

Whatever the trigger(s) was/were he couldn’t be the bad guy. He couldn’t go back to everyone viewing him for what he is— a shell of a man.

Super.

 

[NanZDrew]

That really surprises me, it will be on FB it says. But I guess the family agreed to it.

You are right. The stream will be on the funeral home's Facebook page. Thank you for clarifying that.

 

[Jennifer17]

I feel that he was shocked and could not believe that it was getting so much attention.

 

[MerryB]

One thing I like about the puzzle analogy is how the picture can change over time as we get more "pieces."

Keep in mind that this case is a huge puzzle; imagine 5,000 pieces, and we've only been allowed to see 500 pieces so far. And we know what "image" the prosecution thinks the puzzle will show because we can see what CW has been charged with. And we can tell that there is going to be no way that these pieces will make the picture look like what CW has told us---that SW killed the kids and he killed her---it just doesn't look like that at all, and the pieces he has given us don't even belong in this puzzle, we need to throw those pieces out entirely.

But then we get handed more pieces: CW had a gay sex relationship for 10 months, for instance. And now we've got to determine how those pieces will change the picture we were expecting, or even if those pieces belong to this puzzle at all.

And it can really hurt the prosecution when they promise that the image will look like one thing and fail to prove it. Do you remember the OJ Simpson case? The prosecution was trying to paint a scene of OJ as the killer, and they wanted the pictures in the jurors' minds to be vivid. And they sounded confident and convincing. But . . . then they overstepped. They took an unorthodox move of having OJ try the glove on. And they wanted the jurors to envision OJ wearing the gloves and stabbing Nicole and Ron over and over. But the gloves . . . didn't . . . fit. And there went the prosecution's credibility. And I can still hear Johnny Cochran's famous argument, "If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit." And that mental image of OJ the killer just evaporated in the minds of the jurors.

Excellent point. And there is much, much more to the story. We can't assume we know everything at this stage, and become close-minded to other observations or possible scenarios that don't fit our schema.
Some of us have seen things that have alluded to potential mitigating factors in this crime. Does it change what CW did? No. But might it change how this case is presented to a jury? Absolutely. Bill gives an excellent example with OJ. I think most of us agree he was guilty.

 

[Bill Carson]

They should go for the death penalty, can't they have a second, alternate, penalty of life w/o parole? Not sure how that works. But, thinking of being a normal citizen in the jury, I think I would be a little upset if they didn't at least figuratively try to kill him.

I am a lawyer in Colorado, but I don't practice criminal law, so I can't say for sure how it works. Keep in mind that Colorado has only executed one person since 1977.

There's two stages to a criminal trial: guilt/innocence and punishment. From what I've heard, if he is found guilty of the murders, then the punishment is a mandatory life without parole. (It seems very odd to me that this is the case, that nobody would have discretion to allow him the chance of parole or a range of years, but that's the way I understand it.)

If the State seeks the death penalty, and he is found guilty, then the jury (I think) would have to decide whether to sentence him to death or if he should get life w/o parole instead. So, to answer your question, yes, they can go for death with LWOP as the alternate. It would also be an enticement for CW to plea to LWOP rather than risk the DP.

Death penalty cases are more expensive to try because there are extra due process protections that must be afforded when the State wants to take a person's life. That means extra lawyers and automatic appeals and years of waiting for finality and closure. (OTOH, ISTM that if the State is going to take away a person's liberty until they die, then that should merit nearly the same safeguards.)

 

[AgeofAquaruis]

He probably planned to come back and scour his house for evidence and pick things up and that plan was interrupted. The sheet was probably just a careless oversight on his part. Could be at that point he was in a panicked hurry. I can't believe that through it all he maintained his composure 100%. After the murders, I would think he had some mental clarity issues; more from a getting caught standpoint versus a what have I done standpoint. Should have made a to-do list I guess like alot of criminals do.

If you watch him he does not maintain 100% composure. So many tell tale signs,and cues. He sure was worried about the sniffer dogs being there. The facial,and neck twitches,and eyes darting around,and slurring over his words. He kept looking in the Windows while being interviewed, he was worried about what the dogs were finding. Stumbling to find the words he thinks people want to hear.

 

[gitana1]

Could this be it? He felt shame over her finding out he had male sexual partners and ended up killing them all because of it? JMO, actually not even my real opinion - just speculating.

My best guess - I really don't know- is a combo of factors.

Before he blamed Shanann I got the sense that there was some slight remorse or at least bad feelings associated with what he had done. I predicted a quick confession.

The sense for me was that he was probably reacting poorly due to a defect of character, to financial issues and likely his wife's possible burgeoning independence. So shame and rage over loss of control of his life and family. Most of those types, BTW, also kill themselves.

But he didn't kill himself or even make an attempt from what we know. And once we found out about the affairs and he blamed his dead wife for killing his kids, I switched pretty strongly to thinking he's probably a sociopathic narcissist type who really just wanted to be free.

I think he's probably manipulative but like scott peterson and neil entwhistle, wanted to maintain his golden Boy image for his family.

I don't know if he was motivated by deep shame over his secret life, like in a religious or cultural way. I think it's more he probably enjoyed being free to engage in as many "experiences" as he wanted, and free from the shackles of his family, without looking like a creep in front his folks and siblings.

His allegation against his wife really swayed me to thinking he is a sociopathic type. It's so devastatingly cruel to her, to her kids and all who loved them, IMO. But there is so much we don't yet know. And I'm no psych expert.

My assumptions are based on comparing this cat to past family annihilators who were either diagnosed or who experts sort of arm-chair diagnosed. And the characteristics as listed on websites.
So it's all super speculative for me. I'm no pro.

 

[Bill Carson]

I thought about that and checked SW’s favorite tv shows. She’s got Law and Order SVU there. He must not have watched with her!

That's it!! It was this sound that drove him to commit the murders!!

(Kidding! Kidding! We need to lighten things up a little.)

 

[cottonweaver]

I 100% believe CW killed his whole family. His claim that SW killed the girls seems ridiculous to me, based on what we've seen and know about SW, the details he included don't seem accurate or likely, his reaction to her supposedly strangling them is nonsensical and implausible, the great lengths he took to cover up a crime implicate him further than what his story suggests, and on and on. But...I've watched his interviews a few times now and some of the things he says - specifically, the things he says regarding his own feelings - I don't know. They seem to have a ring to truth to them. And that's what confuses me.

There's some major dissociation going on. He says three times in one interview "I don't feel like this is even real right now/It doesn't feel like it's real/This doesn't seem real at all." Three times in the span of a few minutes. There's some psychological distress there, possibly some shock, but mostly it sounds like disbelief and denial of what happened, which I think would be less likely if the events were planned out. In another interview, "It's not something I can even fathom in my lifetime" and "It scares the living crap out of me right now just knowing that it's come to this." Then, the multiple mentions of it feeling like a "ghost town," and that staying in the house was "traumatizing," and that it felt like he was "living in a nightmare." It doesn't sound like remorse or regret to me, per se, but it sounds more like a violent episode escalated and he felt (for whatever reason - here's where logic completely fails me) he had to see it through to a terrible end.

Maybe I just can't let my brain go there; maybe it's wishful thinking. But I struggle with believing with confidence this was premeditated in a planned for weeks/months in advance kind of way. I don't know that he just snapped, but I do question if his actions went farther than his initial intentions. It seems like he almost shows some emotion when he speaks about his daughters. Not so much SW.

Fascinating post, forces me to rethink my assumptions. Have read so many interpretations of these interviews - ours here & then experts elsewhere . That's a fresh take on his phrases which I haven't heard before.

Whilst I've assumed this was long planned , it's good to hear a different take and I am open, a little anyways, to this option of escalation/trigger.