CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #16

[Bill Carson]

It was Drew Peterson.

I looked up that case, as I was unfamiliar with it. It sounds like it was very, very unorthodox for Drew Peterson 's defense attorney to call as a witness an attorney that his late wife had spoken to about a divorce. HOWEVER, the court of appeals upheld Peterson's conviction, and ruled that the attorney-client privilege did not apply to the communication between Stacy Peterson and lawyer Harry Smith because Smith had made it plain to Stacy Peterson at the beginning of the consultation (or discussion) that he would not represent her in a divorce case.

Here's an article about it.
Illinois Supreme Court upholds Drew Peterson's murder conviction

Edited for clarification

 

[MerryB]

I haven’t had a chance to watch the video of the funeral. It was shocking to hear that FB posters acted up during the live stream and posted horrible messages in the chat. The funeral home has to delete all of that nastiness before posting the video toothier website.

What is the world coming to if people can’t control themselves at such a solemn time?!

This may have been previously discussed but I was surprised at the bare nature of the funeral.
Where are the flowers on the caskets? Why no eulogies? What’s with the plain white sheets on the little girls’ caskets?

It was pointed out to me that the Watts funeral followed very much the Roman Catholic tradition.
For non-Catholics (like me), it’s important to know that the Funeral Mass is not a “celebration of life.”

I have been to memorial services of Catholic friends where there were eulogies from family and friends but I realized that I had never been to a traditional Funeral Mass.

The Vigil and the Wake are times where people speak up and share nice memories of the departed not the Funeral Mass.

The covering with the cross on it that was on SW’s casket is called the “pall” and is meant to evoke
baptism. Perhaps the girls’ palls had something on top that wasn’t visible to me in the stills.

Flowers are not sent to the church but to the Vigil or family home.

You only partake of the communion during the Mass if you have been baptized into the Catholic Church.

What Every Catholic needs to know about funerals

Roman Catholic funeral

These things may be really obvious to WS Catholic members but for non-Catholics, I’ve heard
people complain, “This funeral couldn’t have cost $100,000 of the money??!!”

The funeral wasn't chintzy. It followed the dictates
of SW and her family's faith.

I hope that Shahann’s family is able to use the money collected to support themselves during the
trial which I’m sure is going to be very long. SW’s dad, brother and mother will have to miss a lot of work. They will have to stay in a hotel, buy meals, rent cars, etc.

Does CO have a victims’ fund that helps out families in situations like this?

I believe someone commented that Anadarko paid for the funeral. Has this been confirmed? If so, I think that’s a wonderful gesture.

 

[Shekkiec]

I believe someone commented that Anadarko paid for the funeral. Has this been confirmed? If so, I think that’s a wonderful gesture.

I’m not in CO but I do see there’s a Colorado Organization for Victim Assistance.

That would be great if they did . I bet they felt really awful bc the bodies were placed there. Horrible for their employees that may have had to be there to help drain tank

 

[The Saint]

I saw pictures of the graves and each grave had the traditional casket spray of flowers on top of the dirt. So the flowers just must not be used in a Catholic Service.

With the cost of flowers, do many people send funeral flowers? I went to a funeral last week of a very affluent person, and was surprised to see only the casket spray.
Here in the South in this heat, flowers just do not survive
.
Fl or plants had not been sent to family members either.

I agree, in the South, you’ve got to have silk floral arrangements for the grave. Fresh flowers last less than 2 days in the heat. A lot of people think silk flowers are tacky but in the South, you have to have them at least in the summer.

I think NC is having a heatwave like many parts of the country. During the 5 week stay in NC, SW showed her car temperature as being 106 degrees.

For our non-Catholic family funerals we had a mixture of silk and real flowers for the funeral. I think the big standing Wreaths and sprays were real flowers.


But for other times, we order silk gravestone bridles (arrangements that hang over the top of the headstone) for Christmas (snow and freezing temperatures would wreck real flowers), birthdays and Decoration Day (what most people elsewhere call Memorial Day).

At the funerals, there were small baskets of living flower plants and evergreen plants that our families take back to their houses. I imagine SW’s family had those at the Vigil or Wake and took them back home.

This case has so many followers that I believe, SW’s family think that money donations to the favored charities is more important than buying flowers for the grave or family.

Of course, food is a major part of Southern funerals. Not only to feed mourners but to help
The family in the coming days so they don’t have to cook or worry about going grocery shopping or ordering takeaway.

Frequently in the South the funeral times are published in the newspaper and now on the internet,
so crooks use this an opportunity to rob the home of the bereaved family while they are at the funeral.

Our relatives always have someone stay home to guard against getting robbed.

 

[MerryB]

That would be great if they did . I bet they felt really awful bc the bodies were placed there. Horrible for their employees that may have had to be there to help drain tank

Yes, I’m sure whoever witnessed that is scarred for life. Horrific.

 

[PommyMommy]

I believe someone commented that Anadarko paid for the funeral. Has this been confirmed? If so, I think that’s a wonderful gesture.

I haven't seen that, but fundraisers were mentioned in this article.

Chris Watts case: Everything to know so far about the alleged murders of his wife, daughters
Shanann’s brother starts fundraisers for funeral expenses
Shanann’s brother, Frankie Rzucek, pointed out two fundraisers created to help find the missing family that have now been turned into efforts to raise money for funeral expenses. There is a Facebook fundraiser and one on PayPal.

 

[Jennifer17]

I agree, in the South, you’ve got to have silk floral arrangements for the grave. Fresh flowers last less than 2 days in the heat. A lot of people think silk flowers are tacky but in the South, you have to have them at least in the summer.

I think NC is having a heatwave like many parts of the country. During the 5 week stay in NC, SW showed her car temperature as being 106 degrees.

For our non-Catholic family funerals we had a mixture of silk and real flowers for the funeral. I think the big standing Wreaths and sprays were real flowers.


But for other times, we order silk gravestone bridles (arrangements that hang over the top of the headstone) for Christmas (snow and freezing temperatures would wreck real flowers), birthdays and Decoration Day (what most people elsewhere call Memorial Day).

At the funerals, there were small baskets of living flower plants and evergreen plants that our families take back to their houses. I imagine SW’s family had those at the Vigil or Wake and took them back home.

This case has so many followers that I believe, SW’s family think that money donations to the favored charities is more important than buying flowers for the grave or family.

Of course, food is a major part of Southern funerals. Not only to feed mourners but to help
The family in the coming days so they don’t have to cook or worry about going grocery shopping or ordering takeaway.

Frequently in the South the funeral times are published in the newspaper and now on the internet,
so crooks use this an opportunity to rob the home of the bereaved family while they are at the funeral.

Our relatives always have someone stay home to guard against getting robbed.

BBM. I have lived in three countries and every place that I have lived do that when someone dies.

 

[mtnlites]

It’s fine I was just sharing my experience of my life in a domestic voilent relationship . So many people don’t understand it unless they live in it. One example is that I was opening a store chain and doing training 5 hours away . My job paid more than his. He drove there the night I told him I needed to stay longer than expected . He demanded I quit accused me of abandoning the family . Told me I wasn’t a good mother if I stayed . He would assign me tasks at home but act like he was a manager rating my performance when I got home . The way I see him on her social media she was in charge. Maybe I am jaded from too many broken bones and black eyes but I would have never been “allowed” to go out of town and he would have never helped with the kids to further my career . He kept it as hard as possible for me to succeed. I think SW was amazing at her job and in life however IMO with an abusive husband it would have been impossible until they divorced for her to have the freedom to achieve.

When I first heard about this case, I naturally believed that this was going to be a case of DV coming to a head. I figured that if the home checks and arrests weren’t made public soon, then we’d at least have exes or family friends coming forward to talk about CW’s history of domestic violence. I thought we’d hear about police reports and investigations and perhaps stories about friends who had pleaded with SW to leave. Honestly, however, I no longer see this as DV. I, too, was in a relationship like that and I have worked as a therapist with other women who have so I can totally understand what you are saying. I think that a history of violence, or even emotional abuse, would provide us with “answers” that we’re seeking but I don’t think that’s going to factor into this crime. This seems to be something else and I don’t have enough info yet to settle on any one thing.


Different topic: many people talk about how SW presented herself on SM but from what I saw on CW’s IG, he wasn’t that much different. We don’t have his FB for comparison’s sake, which is a pity because it’s really hard to be able to conclude that he didn’t like her videos, pictures, posts, etc when we can’t see what his end looked like.

 

[borndem]

I’m watching some old new clips from local news channels, and noticing that even the reporters can not hide their disbelief of CW’s story. Nobody is buying his story and reporters themselves are even weighing in on the ridiculousness of his story (my how news has changed from the old days -before they used to just report the news. Now they interpret the news (and wear fancy outfits).

With that being said, I think a jury could definitely agree to a snapped type scenario, more so than they might be able to unanimously agree on a premeditated scenario.

Therefore, it might be more strategic for the prosecutution to go with this approach, unless they really think that premeditation occurred and that this can be proven.

How would the charges and punishments/outcome differ between a snapped vs premeditated approach by the prosecution?

Sorry if this has already been asked.
<modsnipped off topic comment>

I think the murder of SW might possibly have been 2nd degree -- he got angry and just went at her, but I think the killing of the girls was certainly 1st degree. Or whichever one of the three was killed first being 2nd degree and the other 2 being 1st degree. I am just assuming he launched into SW first, then decided to wipe out the rest of his family and get a fresh start.
I think if the prosecution sees that it could have occurred that way -- they've still got a lot of investigation, interviews, evidence, etc., to deal with -- then I think they could present it that way and have a good chance of a jury understanding it and agreeing. If they do propose a 2nd, 1st, 1st, I think they should have 2nd, 2nd, 2nd on the jury ballot also. I don't see the jury finding him innocent of any of it, but we don't want a hung jury in this thing. JMO

<modsnipped off topic comment>

 

[The Saint]

I don't see how it would come as a suprise to CW that SW wanted to separate and move back to NC. She was posting real estate listings. One was a $500,000 house in Hilton Head, I think. It had a pool. SW posted something like, "I could sit by the pool and do my business. I can do it pretty much anywhere." The last sentence may have been in a different post.

Later, SW posted a another house in NC that was cheaper.

Could it be that at first, CW was going to move with them (expensive house) then she decided she wanted to split from CW and he wouldn't live with the 3 of them (cheaper house)?

 

[The Saint]

When I first heard about this case, I naturally believed that this was going to be a case of DV coming to a head. I figured that if the home checks and arrests weren’t made public soon, then we’d at least have exes or family friends coming forward to talk about CW’s history of domestic violence. I thought we’d hear about police reports and investigations and perhaps stories about friends who had pleaded with SW to leave. Honestly, however, I no longer see this as DV. I, too, was in a relationship like that and I have worked as a therapist with other women who have so I can totally understand what you are saying. I think that a history of violence, or even emotional abuse, would provide us with “answers” that we’re seeking but I don’t think that’s going to factor into this crime. This seems to be something else and I don’t have enough info yet to settle on any one thing.


Different topic: many people talk about how SW presented herself on SM but from what I saw on CW’s IG, he wasn’t that much different. We don’t have his FB for comparison’s sake, which is a pity because it’s really hard to be able to conclude that he didn’t like her videos, pictures, posts, etc when we can’t see what his end looked like.

I believe that SW was writing CW's Thrive posts. Either she had his password or he was copying and pasting text that she gave him.

 

[MerryB]

I don't see how it would come as a suprise to CW that SW wanted to separate and move back to NC. She was posting real estate listings. One was a $500,000 house in Hilton Head, I think. It had a pool. SW posted something like, "I could sit by the pool and do my business. I can do it pretty much anywhere." The last sentence may have been in a different post.

Later, SW posted a another house in NC that was cheaper.

Could it be that at first, CW was going to move with them (expensive house) then she decided she wanted to split from CW and he wouldn't live with the 3 of them (cheaper house)?

I believe the NC house she posted was her friend’s house that the friend was trying to sell.

 

[dixiegirl1035]

No, the attorney could not disclose any communications that would be covered by the attorney-client privilege.

The attorney-client privilege covers consultations with potential clients, and other situations where the attorney-client relationship is established. The privilege extends beyond the death of a client, so the fact that SW has died doesn't terminate the privilege. If either party had a consultation with a lawyer regarding divorce or actually retained a lawyer regarding a divorce, then all of the communications between the lawyer and the client would be confidential.

There are exceptions to the attorney-client privilege in Colorado that allow an attorney to reveal information related to the representation in certain specific situations, including the following situations: the extent the lawyer reasonably believes necessary: (1) to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm; (2) to reveal the client's intention to commit a crime and the information necessary to prevent the crime; (3) to prevent the client from committing a fraud that is reasonably certain to result in substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another and in furtherance of which the client has used or is using the lawyer's services.

So for instance, if CW had gone to a lawyer and said, "I'm going to kill my wife and children this weekend," then the attorney would have the right to call the police. (This didn't happen as far as we know.)

Thanks, as it happened in another case (Drew Peterson) that I followed. The defense actually called the divorce lawyer that his wife had met with prior to him murdering her.

Drew Peterson defense witness called 'a gift' to prosecutors

Peterson Defense Witness Testimony May Have Backfired

Divorce Lawyer Testimony in Drew Peterson Trial: 4th Wife Mulled Accusing Him of Murdering 3rd Wife

ETA.. I see above that bill has already addressed how this one is different. That the lawyer was never hired and that is how he testified. Thanks Bill!

 

[MerryB]

I believe that SW was writing CW's Thrive posts. Either she had his password or he was copying and pasting text that she gave him.

Agree.

 

[AbbyG]

I have been reading these threads sporadically and have changed my mind about what occurred. I had felt it most likely that he snapped and killed one of his children while Sha'nann was away, necessitating in his sick mind all the other murders. But now I feel certain (well, as certain as one can be before a proper trial and evidence!) that this was a premeditated crime, in the works for days if not weeks or longer. If he had snapped, there would be some show of emotion after, there would be guilt, there would be regret after coming to one's senses, and there would be devastated mourning. He has exhibited none of that. I think his hard drive/phones will turn up a lot of searches indicating premeditation, plans, secrets, a life he thought he would be leading. He has been so sloppy throughout, he probably only superficially covered his searches. As I mentioned in one other post, this bears a lot of similarities to the Chris Vaughn case (more so than to Scott Peterson's): a cold-blooded faux-family man threatened by an increasingly successful wife, planning an alternate lifestyle once unburdened of the family he seemed to love, and then blaming the wife for the deaths of the children.

One other thing that may have been mentioned - in one of his interviews, he said he briefly saw Sha'nann when she arrived (mentioning the very specific time), and in another interview that same day, he admits to the emotional confrontation ("let's leave it at that"). He doesn't really answer when asked if he saw his kids, just flinches a bit and mentions monitors. And as has been pointed out, he mentions that the garage is never locked, and even postulated that a car could have backed up to the garage and taken them - just what he did!! He gives so much away, including speaking of his children in past tense at one point; we can keep going, he reveals it all. I think the emotional confrontation may have been Sha'nann discovering her children, alas. I believe he had already killed them, and then lost a crucial three hours with her plane delay. That was three hours he planned to clean and organize. But he felt he would get that time on the other end, carefully monitoring his Ring video and never dreaming that cops would be called to his home before he called them himself later that night. All MOO, of course.

 

[Shekkiec]

Agree.

Yea under most MLM recruitment and team sales numbers are crucial . Some people not only help friends and relatives post marketing but sell under their name to ensure the pay system will continue for them . You can be a incredible sales person but your team must generate as well. So much pressure!! In most MLM cases cars you “win”are actually leased under your name only. If you do not meet strict guidelines you are responsible for the entire lease alone . I admire the dedication SW had . I can’t imagine the stress of such a hard job on her level .

 

[The Saint]

I was shocked to read that Chris earned $147,000 as a mechanic at the car dealership when he first moved to CO. SW later got hired as an internet salesperson. Their boss said she was good at it.

People wonder why CW would leave a high-paying job
at the dealership for the job at Anadarko where he grossed significantly less ($60,000).

Their former boss, Greg Alore, provided a few clues. He said that his salesguys were leaving to work in the oil business.

I think that CW's first year's salary at the dealership coud have included a hefty signing bonus, moving expenses and maybe housing expenses until the Watts family could find a permanent home.

CW & SW could have released that people are living paycheck to paycheck and aren't in the market for a new car, so they both left the dealership. CW went to work for Anadrak and SW went to the kids hospital.

I know that many businesses across the nation have trouble with their employees quitting and going to work for Amazon (very, very punishing work).
Being in sales is really hard work and earnings can fluctuate wildly if a big portion of your salary is based on commissions. Some people perfer to have a steady income even if it's lower than their last salary.

SW would be on commission w/ a base at the car dealership. CW may have felt a fear of being laid off as a mechanic if the dealership wasn't making a lot of sales and profit.

 

[Jennifer17]

I was shocked to read that Chris earned $147,000 as a mechanic at the car dealership when he first moved to CO. SW later got hired as an internet salesperson. Their boss said she was good at it.

People wonder why CW would leave a high-paying job
at the dealership for the job at Anadarko where he grossed significantly less ($60,000).

Their former boss, Greg Alore, provided a few clues. He said that his salesguys were leaving to work in the oil business.

I think that CW's first year's salary at the dealership coud have included a hefty signing bonus, moving expenses and maybe housing expenses until the Watts family could find a permanent home.

CW & SW could have released that people are living paycheck to paycheck and aren't in the market for a new car, so they both left the dealership. CW went to work for Anadrak and SW went to the kids hospital.

I know that many businesses across the nation have trouble with their employees quitting and going to work for Amazon (very, very punishing work).
Being in sales is really hard work and earnings can fluctuate wildly if a big portion of your salary is based on commissions. Some people perfer to have a steady income even if it's lower than their last salary.

SW would be on commission w/ a base at the car dealership. CW may have felt a fear of being laid off as a mechanic if the dealership wasn't making a lot of sales and profit.

I find it difficult to believe that he was making that kind of money in a private business as a mechanic.
Was it a new car dealership? Why do new cars need such a highly paid mechanic?

 

[Tricia]

We are closing for the night my friends.

CLICK HERE to continue the discussion tomorrow. The new thread will open on or before 8:30 AM Mountain Tuesday morning

 

[Layla123]

Yea under most MLM recruitment and team sales numbers are crucial . Some people not only help friends and relatives post marketing but sell under their name to ensure the pay system will continue for them . You can be a incredible sales person but your team must generate as well. So much pressure!! In most MLM cases cars you “win”are actually leased under your name only. If you do not meet strict guidelines you are responsible for the entire lease alone . I admire the dedication SW had . I can’t imagine the stress of such a hard job on her level .

The thing we haven’t really discussed is that Shannan’s team seemed to genuinely love and care about her. Both Nicole Utoft and Amber Thayer sell Thrive, too. They are all a tight knit group of friends who support and encourage one another. They also socialize and have fun together. Their children play together, they babysit for one another. It wasn’t all work. I watched one of her live stream product introduction videos, and people actually watched it when it was live. There were tons of comments and likes and hearts floating up the screen. She might well have loved what she did.