Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #24

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A couple of things...

1. IMO Bella seemed to be so nurturing to Cece (one video of SWs showed Bella comforting/soothing Cece during a movie scene SW said scares Cece) it may be that Cece sometimes crawled in bed with Bella. So IMO both girls could have been in the same room that night. I know my youngest did that with her sibling once in awhile. Would that change any sleuth's scenario?

2. When my ex and I bought our Calif. house, I had to sign papers quitclaiming any interest in the property to him. This allowed him to obtain a mortgage using only his income and debt to qualify. If CW got the mortgage in his name only, his income would have had to be high enough by itself to satisfy the mortgage co. I don't think any of SWs income could have been counted. Of course that doesn't mean SW couldn't or didn't contribute financially.

3. I keep seeing the open garage door issue being raised, like why didn't police/NUA go in that way. I really believe to unlocked garage door was the interior door from the house into the garage that SW kept unlocked. FWIW,the security system also announced when that door was used. You can hear it on the Santa video when SW goes out to the garage to get CWs phone, and then back in.

4. Who is our third VI, besides Trinket78 and Colorado303?

Thanks!
To address #3: It is my understanding that all of the outer accessible doors to the house were locked. I believe the "garage door being open" remark was referring to the inside garage door that leads from inside the house to inside the garage. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

*edited for clarity
 
It sounded to me like his story was that Bella was "spread out" and blue, as seen on the monitor, which would lead me to not consider that they were both in bed together that night. But who knows.

You are probably right @NuttMeg, but I think CW could try to get around the question of why didn't he immediately go check on Bella, and why would he stare at a "blue" distressed/dying child for 8 seconds before seeing SW strangling Cece, and only THEN react.
If he tries to say they were in the same room, he could also claim to have taken it all in quickly and then claim to have gone straight to the one place where all three were.
I'm NOT saying that's what I believe happened, just trying to figure out what CW and his legal team could say to introduce reasonable doubt and make his story believable. All MOO.
 
I’m not sure if this comment is even directed towards me, but in the case that it is, I’d like to clarify:

When I encouraged posters to keep an open mind, I did not mean we should ignore evidence. I was responding to the posters who attacked anyone who expressed a view different from their own. Many accused others of “victim-shaming” when any kind of alternate theory or observation was made.

I suggested we try to be open to all aspects of this case, just as a jury would, and try to lay aside our biases until more information comes out. Right now we know very little. So, I was actually saying, let’s wait for the evidence before we get set in one specific theory.

If you go back & review my posts, you’ll see I’ve never expressed a theory about who murdered the children. I’ve noted my observations & ideas up to that point, but have reserved judgement until the scientific evidence & more unreleased information comes out.
I’m not 100% certain who killed the children because I realize we don’t have all the information we need to reach that conclusion without reasonable doubt, and I’m not going to make scenarios up to fit my theories on how it could have happened. I need facts. There’s nothing in the Warrantless Affidavit to justify First Degree murder, or that definitively describes exactly what happened to the children. I think the DA has more evidence than has been revealed so far, or some of those charges would have been dropped by now, but I don’t know for sure. However, I can’t get past how C.W. lied those first few days. How he stood before LE, his family, and his community begging for their help. Asking them all leave their busy lives to get out and search while he stood in front of everyone lying. He knew where they were. I can’t think of anyone in his situation, who has ever lied like that, who turned out to be innocent. But let’s wait and see. CW’s confession sounds eerily like that movie, True Blue. I’d love to know if he saw that movie.
 
Google the guy, a couple of days ago, who donated $15,000 to a , when he meant to donate $15. And is having a heck of a time getting that worked out. Apparently he entered "15" and then didn't finish the field and his characters got carried over into other fields, something like that.

Lol well lucky for me that 15,000 payment would bounce....:p:D:D
 
OK, this case is really bothering me, and there are so many points I want to make, I think I'll just go on an epic rant. Maybe part of this is because I made the horrid mistake of reading some other forums discussing this which is full of CW fan girls (and a few fan boys) but there are things here too that make me sigh deeply.

Here is my list, not limited to but including:

A: For all those who say "I know he killed SW but he wouldn't have killed the children" ...why yes. Yes he would. Yes he did. By his own admission he killed Nico. I don't want to hear "Oh he temporarily forgot there was a Nico." Uhmmmm, has anyone hear ever forgotten they were having a baby, for the length of time it takes to strangle someone? I don't think so. Here is a man who could, at the very least, kill his wife and a tiny innocent baby, and give a clear-eyed, smiling interview afterwards.

B: And of course no way do I think he "only" killed SW and Baby NW. Every single thing points to him killing little CCW and BW. Every. Single. Thing. It makes me nuts that anyone can say "we have to give both possibilities equal consideration." Uhmmm why would we give a very sensible theory and a very nonsensical theory the same consideration? What about space aliens? That can be a theory. Do we give it equal time? Maybe the family dog did it...then SW and CW had an emotional discussion regarding the proper punishment for the family dog, so he had to kill her (and Nico) for that. Be sure and give that equal time to the other theories. No, let's use our brains and common sense , and maybe Occam's Razor. And maybe even trust that the LE has a few more bits of evidence than we do, and that the evidence was taken into consideration when deciding what charges to bring against CW.

C: And finally, what the actual heck , concerning people who feel that some of SW's less likable qualities should mitigate the crime of murdering her? Yes, I've seen the videos when she seems a little snarky or condescending. I've seen clips of her seemingly ignoring the girls' needs while making a video, or of encouraging less than stellar behavior.
( I actually know someone IRL who looks and acts so much like SW it is spooky. She is into MLM and has three children and some people love her, and others...well, she gets on their nerves.)
And my answer to that is "So?" Does any man or woman (and yes I would feel the same if genders were reversed) have the right to take a human life, because that human is imperfect? Seriously? If SW was a bank-robbing, tax-evading, kleptomaniac with a mean attitude and a smart mouth, does that warrant the death penalty?
Ask yourself....if your son or daughter talked smack about their spouse, or spent a lot of money, or was caught up in MLM....and their spouse became fed-up with it all, and murdered them, would you say "Well, i won't excuse it, but it is certainly understandable." Of course not! There is no excuse! SW is someone's daughter...someone's sister...and was someone's mother (THREE someones). It is not understandable that she was killed, any more than it would be if you or if I were killed, regardless of our annoying behaviors and human foibles.
A very important part of adulting is being able to control our reactions, and to walk away from potentially combustible situations.

And a bonus thought/question.
What is it about certain women who want to come to the defense of every cheating, lying, violent slimy man out there, who has good teeth or muscles or any iota of good looks? As a fellow member of the female gender, just why?? What is lacking in you, that you had rather align yourself with a man like that, than with his wife, with whatever issues she may have? Would you be as forgiving of YOUR husband, if he was cheating and lying and killed (at the very least) YOUR unborn baby? Just something to think about.
 
B: And of course no way do I think he "only" killed SW and Baby NW. Every single thing points to him killing little CCW and BW. Every. Single. Thing. It makes me nuts that anyone can say "we have to give both possibilities equal consideration." Uhmmm why would we give a very sensible theory and a very nonsensical theory the same consideration?
BBM. I won't follow the admonitions that we have to weigh everything equally, ie was she "emasculating" (my unfavorite) I can see the Affidavit and everything else that has been disclosed, and I have a brain. Nothing wrong with trusting LE on this until something proves LE to be wrong. Also think he tipped his hand with the notion that both parents would simultaneously think of strangling before any other method of murder.
 
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OK, this case is really bothering me, and there are so many points I want to make, I think I'll just go on an epic rant. Maybe part of this is because I made the horrid mistake of reading some other forums discussing this which is full of CW fan girls (and a few fan boys) but there are things here too that make me sigh deeply.

Here is my list, not limited to but including:

A: For all those who say "I know he killed SW but he wouldn't have killed the children" ...why yes. Yes he would. Yes he did. By his own admission he killed Nico. I don't want to hear "Oh he temporarily forgot there was a Nico." Uhmmmm, has anyone hear ever forgotten they were having a baby, for the length of time it takes to strangle someone? I don't think so. Here is a man who could, at the very least, kill his wife and a tiny innocent baby, and give a clear-eyed, smiling interview afterwards.

B: And of course no way do I think he "only" killed SW and Baby NW. Every single thing points to him killing little CCW and BW. Every. Single. Thing. It makes me nuts that anyone can say "we have to give both possibilities equal consideration." Uhmmm why would we give a very sensible theory and a very nonsensical theory the same consideration? What about space aliens? That can be a theory. Do we give it equal time? Maybe the family dog did it...then SW and CW had an emotional discussion regarding the proper punishment for the family dog, so he had to kill her (and Nico) for that. Be sure and give that equal time to the other theories. No, let's use our brains and common sense , and maybe Occam's Razor. And maybe even trust that the LE has a few more bits of evidence than we do, and that the evidence was taken into consideration when deciding what charges to bring against CW.

C: And finally, what the actual heck , concerning people who feel that some of SW's less likable qualities should mitigate the crime of murdering her? Yes, I've seen the videos when she seems a little snarky or condescending. I've seen clips of her seemingly ignoring the girls' needs while making a video, or of encouraging less than stellar behavior.
( I actually know someone IRL who looks and acts so much like SW it is spooky. She is into MLM and has three children and some people love her, and others...well, she gets on their nerves.)
And my answer to that is "So?" Does any man or woman (and yes I would feel the same if genders were reversed) have the right to take a human life, because that human is imperfect? Seriously? If SW was a bank-robbing, tax-evading, kleptomaniac with a mean attitude and a smart mouth, does that warrant the death penalty?
Ask yourself....if your son or daughter talked smack about their spouse, or spent a lot of money, or was caught up in MLM....and their spouse became fed-up with it all, and murdered them, would you say "Well, i won't excuse it, but it is certainly understandable." Of course not! There is no excuse! SW is someone's daughter...someone's sister...and was someone's mother (THREE someones). It is not understandable that she was killed, any more than it would be if you or if I were killed, regardless of our annoying behaviors and human foibles.
A very important part of adulting is being able to control our reactions, and to walk away from potentially combustible situations.

And a bonus thought/question.
What is it about certain women who want to come to the defense of every cheating, lying, violent slimy man out there, who has good teeth or muscles or any iota of good looks? As a fellow member of the female gender, just why?? What is lacking in you, that you had rather align yourself with a man like that, than with his wife, with whatever issues she may have? Would you be as forgiving of YOUR husband, if he was cheating and lying and killed (at the very least) YOUR unborn baby? Just something to think about.
It's early yet, but ^^this^^ post right here gets my vote as Post of the Day.post of the day.jpg
 
I think death would be the ultimate abuse, which is what he did to her. I won't go through all the obvious reasons, as they have been posted over and over. He could have tried to save his family had he wanted to, instead of making sure they got no help, making sure they were dead instead of getting help from professionals at 911.

Imo, there's a hopefulness that this family tragedy is going to be different, unique, because CW says it's so. CW will go down in history as one of the first to avenge his children's death by killing his wife in the exact same manner as she killed the children. No trial and prison sentence for pregnant SW, no chance for a new life brought into the world after the tragic death of Bella and Cece, CW made sure of that.

SW, 15 weeks pregnant, tired and exhausted after a weekend away and a flight delay of 3 hrs, (the early months of pregnancy can be the most tiresome) returns home at 1.48 am, she has a doctor's appointment at 10am, therefore, she needs her sleep. Who's more likely rested and ready for confrontation, SW or CW?

His version, at 4 am, all hell breaks loose ever so quietly and SW bursts into an absolute 'silent' murderous rage because she can't bear his words, and kills her children while CW has wandered off somewhere for a moment, suddenly he's back in the master bedroom and witnesses via the monitor, one obviously dead child by his account and the other dying as SW strangles her, (very difficult to write, must detach), CW immediately runs to the child's bedroom and strangles SW to death!

CW's got 3 (4) dead bodies in the house and 1 hour to decide what to do, he doesn't think he'll be believed and the 'perfect' cover up is planned. CW lugs their bodies downstairs one by one, cloaked in something (sheets, trash bags??) and carts them off to his vehicle he's backed up to the house around 5.15am. CW's drives them to their final destination 40 miles away, separate oil tanks for the girls and a clandestine grave nearby for SW. CW carries on a usual work day, afaik.

CW wanted to steer LE's attention to different scenarios, SW left of her own accord or was taken. When asked by the reporter what does he want people to believe, he answers, 'he wants PEOPLE to believe that he wants them back and safe'. A good question and a truthful answer from CW, he wants PEOPLE to believe. Why didn't he call 911 and explain was happened, why go to all the effort of a cover up when forensics would reveal the truth? Why does he think a cover up is more believable than the truth?

In his desperation, he subtly hints that someone took them against their will and are holding them, which is just as low a blow as blaming SW, if he'd had another 24 hours to tidy up loose ends before reporting them missing, one or more persons may have been implicated if they were seen in the vicinity.
CW is prepared for anyone to do the time for his crime! JMO
 
Imo, there's a hopefulness that this family tragedy is going to be different, unique, because CW says it's so. CW will go down in history as one of the first to avenge his children's death by killing his wife in the exact same manner as she killed the children. No trial and prison sentence for pregnant SW, no chance for a new life brought into the world after the tragic death of Bella and Cece, CW made sure of that.

SW, 15 weeks pregnant, tired and exhausted after a weekend away and a flight delay of 3 hrs, (the early months of pregnancy can be the most tiresome) returns home at 1.48 am, she has a doctor's appointment at 10am, therefore, she needs her sleep. Who's more likely rested and ready for confrontation, SW or CW?

His version, at 4 am, all hell breaks loose ever so quietly and SW bursts into an absolute 'silent' murderous rage because she can't bear his words, and kills her children while CW has wandered off somewhere for a moment, suddenly he's back in the master bedroom and witnesses via the monitor, one obviously dead child by his account and the other dying as SW strangles her, (very difficult to write, must detach), CW immediately runs to the child's bedroom and strangles SW to death!

CW's got 3 (4) dead bodies in the house and 1 hour to decide what to do, he doesn't think he'll be believed and the 'perfect' cover up is planned. CW lugs their bodies downstairs one by one, cloaked in something (sheets, trash bags??) and carts them off to his vehicle he's backed up to the house around 5.15am. CW's drives them to their final destination 40 miles away, separate oil tanks for the girls and a clandestine grave nearby for SW. CW carries on a usual work day, afaik.

CW wanted to steer LE's attention to different scenarios, SW left of her own accord or was taken. When asked by the reporter what does he want people to believe, he answers, 'he wants PEOPLE to believe that he wants them back and safe'. A good question and a truthful answer from CW, he wants PEOPLE to believe. Why didn't he call 911 and explain was happened, why go to all the effort of a cover up when forensics would reveal the truth? Why does he think a cover up is more believable than the truth?

In his desperation, he subtly hints that someone took them against their will and are holding them, which is just as low a blow as blaming SW, if he'd had another 24 hours to tidy up loose ends before reporting them missing, one or more persons may have been implicated if they were seen in the vicinity.
CW is prepared for anyone to do the time for his crime! JMO

Great post! It all seems quite clear when laid out like this, doesn't it?!
 
Here is a really good article in Newsweek magazine about Family annihilators. According to this article the kids are usually killed first.

Check it out here:
Why Ordinary People Murder Their Families

Here are some tidbits of the article.

Known as "family annihilators", these people, most always men, have a profound need for control that drives them to destroy their family when they can no longer provide for them financially or when the family has been divided by divorce. (With men who commit murder-suicides there tends to be a catalyst such as a financial or personal defeat that they view as catastrophic, while women who kill loved ones are more likely to have a history of mental-health conditions like postpartum psychosis, as in the case of Andrea Yates, the Texas mother who drowned her five young children in 2001.)

Can you explain how seemingly average people wind up committing such an extreme crime?
There are certain factors that we find in almost every annihilation, especially the ones where the motive is revenge: There's a catalyst that is seen as catastrophic in the mind of the killer. The percipient is usually a nasty divorce or child-custody battle. There's a loss of a relationship. There's an externalization of blame. The killer believes that the spouse is responsible for the destruction of the family unit. The children are killed because the husband blames the wife and kills everything associated with her … first the children go and then the wife—everything associated with the person is considered evil.
 
Oh I see. But if that's true I wonder how many seconds it toggles between the two rooms. He would have to happen on Bella first and stand there staring at her sprawled and blue and then eventually see SW in Cece's room. He seems to tell it in the opposite order. This whole scenario sounds very hinkey to me no matter how you look at it.
Does anyone know what type of baby monitor it was or at least how good the color is on the newer ones? I've only seen the old ones and the images were never very good. If anyone has one it might be useful to do some kind of experiment. I didn't even think you could see skin tone at all but who knows how much clearer they are now. I don't even remembering them have any color at all. Jmo
 
You are so right. I was getting so invested in an argument here, based on my perception vs other people’s perceptions, and it’s pointless.

NONE of us know the truth, and there are very few actual facts.
See, I think there are many actual facts! Far more than what we have available in most cases. For a great list of those facts, see the list by @gitana1 pinned to the top of this thread.
 
When they bought the house in 2013, CW was working as a mechanic at a Ford dealership and SW was working as a nanny. She also began her job in the call center of a hospital that year & worked there until 2017.
Actually, the family home you speak of was purchased in 2012 directly from builder during construction by CW, prior to marriage (emphasis added). The "permanent financing" and or FHA mortgage loan was obtained in 2013, and loan already sleuthed beyond measure. Take note CW and SW were not yet married when the house was under contract, and SW was the processing of reading her own home for sale.
 
You are so right. I was getting so invested in an argument here, based on my perception vs other people’s perceptions, and it’s pointless.

NONE of us know the truth, and there are very few actual facts.
We don’t know enough to say how it happened, but we have enough evidence to make an educated guess, atleast in terms of the bigger picture.
 
OK, this case is really bothering me, and there are so many points I want to make, I think I'll just go on an epic rant. Maybe part of this is because I made the horrid mistake of reading some other forums discussing this which is full of CW fan girls (and a few fan boys) but there are things here too that make me sigh deeply.

Here is my list, not limited to but including:

A: For all those who say "I know he killed SW but he wouldn't have killed the children" ...why yes. Yes he would. Yes he did. By his own admission he killed Nico. I don't want to hear "Oh he temporarily forgot there was a Nico." Uhmmmm, has anyone hear ever forgotten they were having a baby, for the length of time it takes to strangle someone? I don't think so. Here is a man who could, at the very least, kill his wife and a tiny innocent baby, and give a clear-eyed, smiling interview afterwards.

B: And of course no way do I think he "only" killed SW and Baby NW. Every single thing points to him killing little CCW and BW. Every. Single. Thing. It makes me nuts that anyone can say "we have to give both possibilities equal consideration." Uhmmm why would we give a very sensible theory and a very nonsensical theory the same consideration? What about space aliens? That can be a theory. Do we give it equal time? Maybe the family dog did it...then SW and CW had an emotional discussion regarding the proper punishment for the family dog, so he had to kill her (and Nico) for that. Be sure and give that equal time to the other theories. No, let's use our brains and common sense , and maybe Occam's Razor. And maybe even trust that the LE has a few more bits of evidence than we do, and that the evidence was taken into consideration when deciding what charges to bring against CW.

C: And finally, what the actual heck , concerning people who feel that some of SW's less likable qualities should mitigate the crime of murdering her? Yes, I've seen the videos when she seems a little snarky or condescending. I've seen clips of her seemingly ignoring the girls' needs while making a video, or of encouraging less than stellar behavior.
( I actually know someone IRL who looks and acts so much like SW it is spooky. She is into MLM and has three children and some people love her, and others...well, she gets on their nerves.)
And my answer to that is "So?" Does any man or woman (and yes I would feel the same if genders were reversed) have the right to take a human life, because that human is imperfect? Seriously? If SW was a bank-robbing, tax-evading, kleptomaniac with a mean attitude and a smart mouth, does that warrant the death penalty?
Ask yourself....if your son or daughter talked smack about their spouse, or spent a lot of money, or was caught up in MLM....and their spouse became fed-up with it all, and murdered them, would you say "Well, i won't excuse it, but it is certainly understandable." Of course not! There is no excuse! SW is someone's daughter...someone's sister...and was someone's mother (THREE someones). It is not understandable that she was killed, any more than it would be if you or if I were killed, regardless of our annoying behaviors and human foibles.
A very important part of adulting is being able to control our reactions, and to walk away from potentially combustible situations.

And a bonus thought/question.
What is it about certain women who want to come to the defense of every cheating, lying, violent slimy man out there, who has good teeth or muscles or any iota of good looks? As a fellow member of the female gender, just why?? What is lacking in you, that you had rather align yourself with a man like that, than with his wife, with whatever issues she may have? Would you be as forgiving of YOUR husband, if he was cheating and lying and killed (at the very least) YOUR unborn baby? Just something to think about.
I want to think like you, but I know C.W. was having an affair, and I know there have many instances when a wife found out about an affair, and wanted to hurt him as badly as he hurt her, so she killed their children. It is possible that SW murdered those children. I think it’s possible that discovering CW’s affair could have destroyed everything she believed in, everything she worked so hard for. CW’s story seems highly unlikely, but because there’s been no evidence otherwise, I just don’t know for certain who killed them. I do think it’s going to take a lot more than I have right now to get me to believe she killed them with 100% certainty, though, like a text she sent to C.W. threatening to kill them. That would do it.
 
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