Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #32

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Just as I am unwilling to internet diagnose SW as being bi-polar or having borderline personality disorder based on some FB videos, I can't diagnose CW as being a compulsive liar based on one situation in which he was trying to cover his hiney. Compulsive and pathological lying is way more complicated than that. He'd have to have demonstrated a history of lying not just to defend himself, but over seemingly insignificant things, and not just things that are associated with the murders. He'd lie to his co-workers and friends about what he had for breakfast, what movie he saw over the weekend, who his friends were, what kind of house he grew up in, funny things his girls said...The lying would be a literal compulsion and would serve no other purpose than to feed the compulsion he was feeling. Conversely, the lying in the interview DID serve a purpose-to hopefully get him out of trouble.

And sure, this may very well be him. But until we start hearing these stories from people who actually met him and knew him, it's not an opinion I can make.

That is what I am wondering. Did he lie all of the time.

That liar article talks about narcissism which many posters have discussed on here.

I don’t think many of us are verified on here as to our credentials so we are all throwing out ideas as to what kind of person could do this.

I find it interesting. It certainly helps me in real life hopefully to not get sucked into these kind of people because I can examine signs and make determinations on if a relationship is going to be hazardous
 
Here is an exerpt from the liar info I pisted above which talks about some of the things people have brought up on WS. Interesting how some noticed this.
————-

"One of the most interesting theories about pathological liars is that they may have the opposite ratio of cortisol and testosterone than most people," Bill Eddy LCSW, a licensed therapist, tells Bustle. "This allows them to be highly aggressive without concern for the risks involved, such as blatantly lying about something which could have serious consequences if they were caught."

And this might connect them to yet another personality disorder. As Eddy says, "The most successful pathological liars are sociopaths, also known as 'antisocial personality disorder' to mental health professionals."

These different hormone levels may play a part in that. As Eddy says, "For most people, cortisol stops them from being overly aggressive and taking unreasonable risks. But for those with antisocial personality disorder, they may have a higher level of testosterone and a lower level of cortisol than the average person ... This may result in the person lying outrageously, but convincingly." Just to be clear, not all pathological liars are sociopaths, but there is evidence to suggest that most sociopaths are pathological liars.
 
That is what I am wondering. Did he lie all of the time.

That liar article talks about narcissism which many posters have discussed on here.

I don’t think many of us are verified on here as to our credentials so we are all throwing out ideas as to what kind of person could do this.

I find it interesting. It certainly helps me in real life hopefully to not get sucked into these kind of people because I can examine signs and make determinations on if a relationship is going to be hazardous
Mindhunter13, a Verified Forensic Psychology Expert weighed in on the question of narcissism in Thread 18:

CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #18

For MerryB and PommyMommy,

Since I hate to give any diagnosis without formal assessment, I can comfortable say that I don’t really see signs of narcissism. I more so see signs of someone who is knowingly telling a lie and is hoping he is telling it convincingly enough for it to be believed.

There are many different cues I picked up on while watching the interview. Subtle moments where C.W. appeared to suppress a smile or smirk, others where he appeared to be thinking more than would be reasonable for facts that should have been readily available. There were other little ‘tells” but overall:

I would have to say that there is nothing overtly present to suggest extreme emotional disturbance but that is only assessed by viewing the video interviews and reading what he has publicly stated. There is no possible (nor legal) way I could offer an actual diagnosis without having performed an actual evaluation on C.W. for myself.

Please feel free to ask any questions!
 
This is so easy to read and I think explains a lot about him. It is about liars.

11 Fascinating Scientific Facts About Pathological Liars

That’s a very good article. Thank you. Lots of insight (and compassion) in it.

A rumination: I didn’t see much mention of something, (unless it falls under the “compulsive” category:

They tell lies that don’t seem to benefit them in any way. They lie about inconsequential things, like what they brought for lunch or what brand of paper towels they use.

There are lies that, IMO, make sense. Lying about work experience on a resume, lying about working late instead of being with a mistress, lying about the dog eating your homework. People lie in order to gain or avoid something. There’s a clear benefit to the liar.

Anyway, the pointless lies are the most pathological IMO. It’s like the difference between people who steal food because they’re hungry and kleptomaniacs who steal things they don’t even want.

My husband and I had a friend who lied about absolutely everything. If he said the sky was blue, you’d have to go outside to verify. We think it made him feel superior, that he had knowledge that others didn’t. Even if it was about the sandwich he brought for lunch. SMDH.

For the record, (and to get back on topic!) I do believe Chris lied about SO many things.
 
Mindhunter13, a Verified Forensic Psychology Expert weighed in on the question of narcissism in Thread 18:

CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #18

For MerryB and PommyMommy,

Since I hate to give any diagnosis without formal assessment, I can comfortable say that I don’t really see signs of narcissism. I more so see signs of someone who is knowingly telling a lie and is hoping he is telling it convincingly enough for it to be believed.

There are many different cues I picked up on while watching the interview. Subtle moments where C.W. appeared to suppress a smile or smirk, others where he appeared to be thinking more than would be reasonable for facts that should have been readily available. There were other little ‘tells” but overall:

I would have to say that there is nothing overtly present to suggest extreme emotional disturbance but that is only assessed by viewing the video interviews and reading what he has publicly stated. There is no possible (nor legal) way I could offer an actual diagnosis without having performed an actual evaluation on C.W. for myself.

Please feel free to ask any questions!

Where is Mindhunter? Have not seen forever. Someone else asked a question recently and there was no response.

So no narcissism. Ditch that idea. Not a sociopath?

He is just an ordinary person that snapped?
 
Where is Mindhunter? Have not seen forever. Someone else asked a question recently and there was no response.

So no narcissism. Ditch that idea. Not a sociopath?

He is just an ordinary person that snapped?
There is also this from Mindhunter13:

Pommy,

I was looking for signs of internal conflict, any signs of emotional guilt, repression of anger, hostility or rage. All in all, I was simply left with the impression that he's just another average guy who thought he was smart enough to get away with telling his lies. I didn't see any overt signs of any of these I mentioned.

CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #18

This was in response to my question: Thank you so much, MindHunter13. I just have one question for you regarding the BBM above. Could you describe what (as a bare minimum, perhaps) would have to be overtly present for you to conclude CW was under the influence of an EED?
 
I thought CW was quite convincing at lying considering what he'd been through. This has got to come from somewhere or maybe he's so arrogant, he can carry it off?

I didn't... I thought those interviews were absolutely terrible. Both for his case later and for him as a human.

In fact... what part was 'convincing' for you that he was actually concerned about his 'missing' family.

He convinced me that he was lying and also convinced me that a killer should never give an interview.
 
There is also this from Mindhunter13:

Pommy,

I was looking for signs of internal conflict, any signs of emotional guilt, repression of anger, hostility or rage. All in all, I was simply left with the impression that he's just another average guy who thought he was smart enough to get away with telling his lies. I didn't see any overt signs of any of these I mentioned.

CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #18

This was in response to my question: Thank you so much, MindHunter13. I just have one question for you regarding the BBM above. Could you describe what (as a bare minimum, perhaps) would have to be overtly present for you to conclude CW was under the influence of an EED?

What is EED?

That is scary to think that an ordinary person can do this.

I do not believe it,however.

I don’t know where they are, but there were discussions about him as a teen and a young adult.

He was good looking in high school and as a young adult yet he did not date even though girls were interested in him.

Yet when it came to SW, he was rather aggressive in his pursuit of her which seems such a contradiction to his shy introvert self that we hear about.

SW said that he had no game, but for sure he had one affair going.

These are some things that lead me to believe that there is something there that is not ordinary
 
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An excerpt of an article about family annihilators - The likelihood of suicide increases as guilt increases, and decreases the more you can be convinced other people won't know/won't care.

The Last Psychiatrist: 8 Characteristics of Family Annihilators

This applies with CW imo, and of course, SP, CL and JMacD.

SW doesn't feel guilty, thought he could get away with it and was convinced people just wouldn't care enough about his missing family.
 
What is EED?

That is scary to think that an ordinary person can do this.

I do not believe it,however.

I don’t know where they are, but there were discussions about him as a teen and a young adult.

He was good looking in high school and as a young adult yet he did not date even though girls were interested in him.

Yet when it came to SW, he was rather aggressive in his oursuit if her which seems such a contradiction to his shy introvert self that we hear about.

SW said that he had no game, but for sure he had one affair going.

These are some things that lead me to believe that there is something there that is not ordinary
Extreme Emotional Disturbance
Extreme Emotional Disturbance (Forensic Psychology) - iResearchNet

A number of states in the United States provide by statute that defendants charged with murder or attempted murder may seek to mitigate the charges against them by claiming, and proving, that when they intentionally murdered or attempted to murder their victim, they did so under the influence of an extreme emotional disturbance (EED) for which there was a reasonable explanation or excuse.

The EED defense can be contrasted with the (also partial) defense of provocation, which exists in other states.
 
I didn't... I thought those interviews were absolutely terrible. Both for his case later and for him as a human.

In fact... what part was 'convincing' for you that he was actually concerned about his 'missing' family.

He convinced me that he was lying and also convinced me that a killer should never give an interview.
Hmmm, maybe I'm using the wrong word, not convincing, but he has the 'ordinary guy in an extraordinary situation' down pat. He wasn't fluttering his eyes or touching his face or gulping excessively. It's only after watching the videos several times and posters here transcribing what he actually said, that's where he comes undone.
 
What is EED?

That is scary to think that an ordinary person can do this.

I do not believe it,however.

I don’t know where they are, but there were discussions about him as a teen and a young adult.

He was good looking in high school and as a young adult yet he did not date even though girls were interested in him.

Yet when it came to SW, he was rather aggressive in his pursuit of her which seems such a contradiction to his shy introvert self that we hear about.

SW said that he had no game, but for sure he had one affair going.

These are some things that lead me to believe that there is something there that is not ordinary
Evil is not ordinary, IMO.

You might also be interested in stereopticons (Verified Psychologist) remarks from Thread 30:

MassGuy said:
To your last point, do you think it is likely that CW went into an “acute psychotic phase,” based on his postoffense behavior?

Does one commonly commit a crime like this, and then act so rationally and purposefully after the fact?

stereopticons said:
I think it's extremely unlikely that CW experienced acute psychosis at the time of the murders. My main reason for this is his actions and interviews in the days after. He didn't exhibit any bizarre behavior or thinking during his interviews. It's extremely unlikely he would have fully recovered that quickly and without treatment. Additionally, 33 is pretty old for an onset of a psychotic disorder with no prior indications. Of course, he could have had symptoms we don't know about, but again, I think it's very unlikely.

I should point out when I refer to bizarre behavior, I mean what's clinically considered bizarre behavior, which is things like tics, referring to your delusions, talking to hallucinations, etc.

gitana1 said:
How about disassociative fugue? People have wondered about that. What is it? How does it work? Could he conceal certain things like an affair, and know things like his name, address, identity, while in a fugue state by remembering his wife killed his kids?

What are the characteristics of someone in such a state? Do they match with how he looked and sounded and what he said during his three porch interviews!

stereopticons said:
Basically, a dissociative episode is when you separate from your thoughts and actions.
Dissociation is possible, and more likely than psychosis, but honestly, also not likely at all. Dissociation can range in severity and may resolve more quickly than active psychosis, but it's not usually selective. If he said he blacked out and came to and found his wife and kids were dead, I'd be more likely to consider dissociation, but he didn't seem to have any memory loss at all. If he indeed did experience dissociation, he wouldn't remember a false (IMO!) memory of his wife killing the kids. He would almost certainly remember none of it.

The other thing to note about dissociation is that it is usually a response to trauma. For example, you see it most often in children who were sexually abused. It's hypothesized that dissociation is a form of a coping mechanism. It is possible that the dissociative episode could have been triggered by seeing SW strangling the girls, but if that were the case, he'd likely not remember any of his actions later on.

Dissociation also tends to be associated with numbness. I know we've debated how much emotion he's expressing in his interviews after the murders, but honestly, I think it's too much for him to have experienced a dissociative episode.

As always, my caveat is that you can't diagnose over the internet and I don't have all the information. But in my opinion, CW did not experience either active psychosis or a dissociative episode.

Found Deceased - CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *Arrest* #30
 
What is EED?

That is scary to think that an ordinary person can do this.

I do not believe it,however.

I don’t know where they are, but there were discussions about him as a teen and a young adult.

He was good looking in high school and as a young adult yet he did not date even though girls were interested in him.

Yet when it came to SW, he was rather aggressive in his pursuit of her which seems such a contradiction to his shy introvert self that we hear about.

SW said that he had no game, but for sure he had one affair going.

These are some things that lead me to believe that there is something there that is not ordinary

How was he aggressive in his pursuit of her? He sent her a friend request on facebook. (Per SW's video) A lot of people can be braver on the internet than in person.
 
she indeed is a victim but perhaps she is a catalyst to her murder by strangling her babies

There is no evidence whatsoever that she strangled her babies.
We have CW’s confession that he murdered SW.
That confession is proof that he lied to NUA, LE, the media and the Thayers because he told them all completely different story.
The only person who has been charged is CW.
If LE believe that she strangled the babies, they would have downgraded his charges and they have not done so.
 
@whisperOFwings can it be disabled so CW did have to key in the number to open garage door, or he used a key?

@The Saint I'm wondering if it was disabled by CW, and if so, it would be interesting to know when he did it.
I know when our door pad needed new batteries, it HOUNDED us to replace batteries (the inside door pad flashed red... the 'home control panel' reprimanded us a few times a day (beepbeepbeep) and our phones wouldn't leave us alone until we replaced the batteries.
Same with smoke/fire/carbon detectors.
Disabled? I don't know, never needed to do that. Lololol
 
Hmmm, maybe I'm using the wrong word, not convincing, but he has the 'ordinary guy in an extraordinary situation' down pat. He wasn't fluttering his eyes or touching his face or gulping excessively. It's only after watching the videos several times and posters here transcribing what he actually said, that's where he comes undone.
A 'ordinary' guy doesn't: wake up the day after killing people, shave, put in contacts and a cool new Tarheel shirt... then smile, smirk and talk in circles about his 'missing' family.
Really, he should have been fluttering, gulping, and crunching up his eyes and face. Then he might have been more convincing. He was basically nonchalant when he should have been... well, chalant.
 
An excerpt of an article about family annihilators - The likelihood of suicide increases as guilt increases, and decreases the more you can be convinced other people won't know/won't care.

The Last Psychiatrist: 8 Characteristics of Family Annihilators

This applies with CW imo, and of course, SP, CL and JMacD.

SW doesn't feel guilty, thought he could get away with it and was convinced people just wouldn't care enough about his missing family.

This article is very good. I agree that it can be applied to CW.
 
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