Found Deceased CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW GUILTY* #51

[MsBetsy]

I am very concerned she will attempt, at least somewhat underhandedly, to take her Cindy Show to the courtroom on Monday during her victim impact statement. I do hope the Judge will shut her down if so. But I just cannot imagine her getting up there and, despite any well placed attorney advice beforehand, her not taking an opportunity to at least subtly bash SW and question CW's guilt re the children. I hope I am wrong.

I just can't imagine her having the nerve to do that. She may claim that she believes her son didn't get a fair trial, but I just can't imagine her going beyond that. Yet just by her saying that I guess it's the same thing, so she would do better to keep her mouth shut. I can't imagine it being any worse than what she has already done. Although she seems to have no filter so you never know. Imo

 

[x_files]

They don't think so. They think it shows he was in a rage - not premeditated- because she had killed their kids.

They don't understand that family annihilators are often very violent in the killings of their families.

I think you can premeditate a murder and still carry it out with extreme rage.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Is it me, or does 6-8 weeks not seem long enough for CW to get deeply involved enough with NK to, what?, then kill Shanann and the girls? I understand that the marriage might have been on the rocks for a longer amount of time, but why would CW kill his family over someone he had been seeing for not even two months? Especially when she said she wanted to take things slowly. Would CW have killed his family if there were no affair partner? So is the affair partner (only) the partial motive? Or does the DA have something else entirely? If a 6-week affair is the motive, I’m sorry, but that is like high-school-type LAME.

Well if you listen to Mrs W he was the long suffering victim of domestic psychological abuse who finally snapped.....

 

[Best of What's Around]

This letter the podcast hosts mentioned Chris wrote is very brief and written 7 days before the murders. They supposedly will discuss it tonight.

That says more premeditation to me, the fool, assuming it was actually written when they say it was. I don't trust CW's family personally. And I doubt they see that it is a double edged sword to put it out, real or not. IMO

 

[MassGuy]

This letter the podcast hosts mentioned Chris wrote is very brief and written 7 days before the murders. They supposedly will discuss it tonight.

Here’s the thing. If that letter existed, it would have been taken as evidence. It wasn’t.

That means that it wasn’t considered important (unlikely), or doesn’t exist (far more likely).

God bless these women, because their time in the spotlight it quickly coming to an end.

They are grasping at straws, wildly speculating, and likely completely fabricating “evidence.”

When this case ends, so does their (minor) relevance.

Good riddance.

 

[MsBetsy]

Exactly like FRAN -- but made infinitely more annoying because she is flippantly discussing heinous murder and casually tossing out ludicrous conspiracy theories, bashing the victim something fierce, and praising herself for her hard work "cultivating" her varied "sources." It is almost too much to bear to listen at this point. IMO

And is this the same person who wrote the letter to the judge?

 

[sun16]

For some people it doesn't take long to get obsessed with somebody. Even if she wanted to take it slow he could have already fallen deeply in love with her. But I wouldn't be suprised if there had been also many other reasons/affairs/whatever.

Do we know how long CW and SW dated before CW proposed?

 

[Best of What's Around]

Yes, it wouldn't explain what he did to their bodies and how he behaved after they were dead. I never saw or considered him as a loving father after the knowledge and the interview. But Nichol didn't seem to have a problem with him having kids. And my major thought was, that this was his entire problem. His family (including the babies) stood in his way. That was my reason just to overthink it a bit. So maybe he didn't thought of killing them first place but later had no problems doing it, because he "had" to?

You know, should he ever actually truly admit to killing his daughters, I would not be surprised if he irrationally rationalized to himself that the girls would be better off since they would no longer have their mother. We've seen that kind of ridiculous sanctimonious thinking from FA's before. Now, I actually think he didn't want the "work" involved with rearing them, and/or they reminded him too much of someone he now wanted gone (SW), but I could see him telling himself they just had to go as well because they wouldn't have a good life growing up with a "missing" mother. Just a thought. Crazy - but I would not be surprised, either. IMO

 

[MassGuy]

Do we know how long CW and SW dated before CW proposed?

I think they started dating in 2010, and were married in 2012. If my math is correct, that’s about two years.

 

[LittleFleurDeLys]

Totally agree. I think we need to keep that perspective too. He cold bloodedly killed his daughter's and unborn son. I think going down the path of whether he did it on the spur of the moment as they were witnesses starts to justify what he did in some way. Eg he's not as bad as if he set out to kill them. I get that we are all struggling to understand and that's because what he did is unfathomable.

If he truly loved and wanted his kids he would not have killed them. He would have not desecrated their precious wee bodies by dumping them in oil tanks, standing in front of media without one ounce of emotion and lying to the AP and from what is reported by the Thayer's was not acting like a man whose beloved children died.

That is not the response of a man whose children died in a domestic crossfire gone wrong IMO

Hell, no! I would never justify what this monster did! Neither to his wife nor to his beautiful children. Do you believe, that in this case, this would be excusable? Because I never wrote that!!!

 

[sun16]

I just can't imagine her having the nerve to do that. She may claim that she believes her son didn't get a fair trial, but I just can't imagine her going beyond that. Yet just by her saying that I guess it's the same thing, so she would do better to keep her mouth shut. I can't imagine it being any worse than what she has already done. Although she seems to have no filter so you never know. Imo

I think she’ll sound exactly like she does in interviews and keep saying the same things. She’s not going to change by Monday. If she writes something and reads directly from it and STICKSTO IT, it might be less of a meltdown. But I’m still expecting it to be ...not pretty.

 

[Mitch11]

You know, should he ever actually truly admit to killing his daughters, I would not be surprised if he irrationally rationalized to himself that the girls would be better off since they would no longer have their mother. We've seen that kind of ridiculous sanctimonious thinking from FA's before. Now, I actually think he didn't want the "work" involved with rearing them, and/or they reminded him too much of someone he now wanted gone (SW), but I could see him telling himself they just had to go as well because they wouldn't have a good life growing up with a "missing" mother. Just a thought. Crazy - but I would not be surprised, either. IMO

Fully agree!

 

[violet101]

I must be missing something here. If someone had killed him it would be relevant, but he's alive. So what is their point?

They have followers that still think that SW killed girls. That the mistress is just more proof that SW was in a rage when she came home and he said he wanted a divorce. It is just mind boggling to me how people can still support a murderer after so many of his lies are proven. Maybe on Monday they finally will

 

[Thepoet]

My personal issue with the theory that the girls were killed at the last minute - and not planned - is with his reactions the next day and days following. Going to work like nothing is wrong. If he truly loved those children in his own way and did not plan for their demise, I personally cannot reconcile both the dumping in crude oil tanks AND, even more importantly, his superhuman ability to go on immediately like nothing happened. I just can't believe it was unexpected as a result. I could be wrong - maybe he didn't plan to kill the girls and his lack of empathy/sociopathy (after all, he was planning to kill his wife) made it easy to "get over" their becoming collateral damage, so to speak, but I am unconvinced. Also, did he ever actually put anything down on a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment? That would be interesting to know. Maybe it was just all talk. IMO

NK said that CW was a good listener. I don't doubt that, it goes with his ability to be a manipulator/user, and his ability to tell people what they want to hear. It was ALL just talk, just more lies to create a façade. CW, the loving father. I wonder if she had told CW she liked kids or conveyed to him she admired a caring "Dad"?

I believe CW wanted all of his family gone. No worries, no responsibility. And later, when there were no more daughters, he would blame SW and say; "See, I wanted my girls to be with me, you (NK) and I were looking for an apartment for all of us." And I believe the girls were murdered after the birthday party, but before CW's grilling.

 

[x_files]

Extended Interview: Cindy Watts, Chris Watts' mother, questions son's plea deal

It is my understanding that Cindy Watts reached out to news media to give interviews about her concerns in her son CW's plea agreement. I feel conflicted watching those interviews and making comment, knowing that she is both a surviving-victim of terrible crimes that will impact her for the rest of her days, and the parent of the admitted perpetrator who is simultaneously trying to help and save him as much as she can, and at terrible cost to one of his victims and her survivors.

Looking at her from the perspective of the parent of a family inhalator, two things from the extended interview stand out to me sharply:
1. Only the briefest mention in passing of her other child, and nothing in particular in relationship to the childhood of the perpetrator and any sibling impact/influence/experience

2. No substantive answer to the question how did S.W. come into C.W.'s life
Transcript (start at 2:20)
Interviewer: "When and where did he meet Shan'ann?"

Cindy Watts: "They met and he liked her, she liked him, but, it didn't, I don't think, it was like love at first sight or anything, they. They took a little while, and I guess got to know each other, and uh, you know, dated." Then Cindy Watts drives her response toward her negative perceptions of Shan'ann from the beginning. I'm not going to transcribe that.

The answer, to a short question, has no "when" and no "where".

Are there psychology professionals on the board who use the Adult Attachment Interview and have any thoughts about how Cindy Watts conveys the narrative of her son's growing up?

One of the main reasons I ask is because I grew up with a parent like Cindy Watts who couldn't give a straight answer to the most innocuous of questions and still immediately contradicts bold statements, as in Cindy's statement that when she finally did see her son near the time of his plea (paraphrased for 11:05) C.W. was crying, split second changed to he wasn't crying, changed to you could see he was holding back tears. Just preceding in that section of the interview she says "they" wouldn't let her talk to him, and then describes how she talked to him... But to editorialize... it wasn't when/where/how/what she wanted, so it doesn't seemed to have counted in her thinking, because she keeps repeating that she wasn't allowed to talk to him, and that is the misnomer that gets picked up and amplified by others who don't have time to look past tweets and headlines.

I've seen other people on here posting about their experiences as children in families where parents talk this way. I was hoping a professional might give us a bit of food for deeper thought. It seems like there is a very disorganized attachment going on there. Not that it would excuse Cindy's or Chris' behavior, but I thought it might help other forum members help to understand their experiences that sound so similar.

eta: link to Adult Attachment Interview Protocol http://www.psychology.sunysb.edu/attachment/measures/content/aai_interview.pdf

I had to deal with a guy I was dating's mother. She encouraged him to cheat then when I complained she suggested that he kill me. I heard her say it. She actually told her son to kill me to shut me up. Not break up but murder. So, I've dealt with enmeshed mothers with their NP Golden Boys before and frankly, it's scary! She went on for years afterward to leave me threatening phone calls and emails. She wanted to see me dead.

 

[Best of What's Around]

Is it me, or does 6-8 weeks not seem long enough for CW to get deeply involved enough with NK to, what?, then kill Shanann and the girls? I understand that the marriage might have been on the rocks for a longer amount of time, but why would CW kill his family over someone he had been seeing for not even two months? Especially when she said she wanted to take things slowly. Would CW have killed his family if there were no affair partner? So is the affair partner (only) the partial motive? Or does the DA have something else entirely? If a 6-week affair is the motive, I’m sorry, but that is like high-school-type LAME.

Scott Peterson (oh, the parallels to this case!) had only known Amber Frey for a very short time. I think in both cases, while we can never know, that it is just something that would have happened anyway once they tasted freedom and a new relationship coupled with a new child on the way anchoring them more financially and publicly to their wife/family. So personally, I think it is an important factor - but would have come along sooner or later anyway. These guys are NUTS, however, and rarely admit to what they have done (exception: Longo - but many years after being found guilty) - and are such prolific liars anyway, that it must be difficult to study as they may never be truthful as to their true motivations and thoughts. They care too much about what others think of them. And these are the ones who don't commit suicide...which the majority of FAs do. IMO

 

[Mitch11]

For some people it doesn't take long to get obsessed with somebody. Even if she wanted to take it slow he could have already fallen deeply in love with her. But I wouldn't be suprised if there had been also many other reasons/affairs/whatever.

Totally! Didn't he pursue SW like crazy when they first got together... Something Mrs Watts avoided mentioning in her interviews

 

[Thepoet]

They have followers that still think that SW killed girls. That the mistress is just more proof that SW was in a rage when she came home and he said he wanted a divorce. It is just mind boggling to me how people can still support a murderer after so many of his lies are proven. Maybe on Monday they finally will

I'm afraid CW will continue to have some followers no matter what is proved. Almost fifty years later, despite an avalanche of proof including DNA, Jeffrey MacDonald still has some followers!

 

[Madison418]

I think you can premeditate a murder and still carry it out with extreme rage.

I'm sure he let the rage build and build until SW got home. I think the flight delay enraged him even more.

 

[Mitch11]

I had to deal with a guy I was dating's mother. She encouraged him to cheat then when I complained she suggested that he kill me. I heard her say it. She actually told her son to kill me to shut me up. Not break up but murder. So, I've dealt with enmeshed mothers with their NP Golden Boys before and frankly, it's scary! She went on for years afterward to leave me threatening phone calls and emails. She wanted to see me dead.

Oh my gosh that is horrendous!