GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #72

[MassGuy]

It's like poking one's head into a cesspool. One reason I won't buy that book is because I don't want to see it on my bookshelf and know that pure evil is right in there. I will read it, I know, a little hypocritical, I just don't want to run across the book on the shelf and be brought into that dirty but very sad place by accident.

I’ve read screenshots of the book, and it’s written almost as poorly as the stuff that hack Nick Van der Leek writes.

It’s horrible. Chris Watts’ letters are just as poorly written, and I’d be shocked if his true IQ doesn’t reflect that. Dude’s an idiot.

It’s a mass of contradictions from a man who wants to fool the world into believing that he’s a changed man, because he’s “found God.”

Basically, “the devil made me do it.”

It’s completely self serving, much like the book that John List published from behind bars.

 

[NuttMegg]

I agree, there will never be words diabolical enough to describe what he is.

He had at least 45 minutes watching his children scared, whimpering.... 45 minutes to calm down, think more clearly, and spare his own flesh and blood, and he still chose to snuff them out like they were nothing. He makes my blood boil, my skin crawl and my heart break for what he did to those innocent babies, and Niko and Shannan.

They weren't people to him by then, if they ever had been (see the Scott Reisch interview above, he had to look up why a man would not kill his own children). He cared more about his co-workers learning about his deeds, he showed more emotion at that time than any other during the 1st interviews.
Somehow he was born, grew up, getting completely skewed by the people who raised him, IMO. There must have been something evil in him from when he was conceived and then having his female relatives enact a tug of war over how to raise him must have been horrible, all that continuous reinforcement on being "sweet". IMO

 

[NuttMegg]

I’ve read screenshots of the book, and it’s written almost as poorly as the stuff that hack Nick Van der Leek writes.

It’s horrible. Chris Watts’ letters are just as poorly written, and I’d be shocked if his true IQ doesn’t reflect that. Dude’s an idiot.

It’s a mass of contradictions from a man who wants to fool the world into believing that he’s a changed man, because he’s “found God.”

Basically, “the devil made me do it.”

It’s completely self serving, much like the book that John List published from behind bars.

Thanks for the review. I'll probably read it if it turns up free in my browser, but I heard it doesn't even have the letters in it. I would be more interested in reading the raw letters rather than having her paraphrase the parts she finds interesting. She doesn't seem to have a knowledgeable background in the case.

 

[NuttMegg]

One more thing I want to address is the insane conspiracy theory about CPS being involved and Shanann only being allowed around her girls 90 minutes a day. CW wrote in his letter to Cadle that the first time he heard about this lie was from his parents.

He said there is no validity to this insane claim and that Shanann was alone with the girls on the weekends when he worked.

He said the reason (in addition to wanting to give her girls a head start in life) Shanann wanted them to go to preschool was so she could concentrate on building her Thrive business.

IMO instead of trying to discredit the author of "Letters From Christopher", the Watts should issue an official statement apologizing to the Rzucek family, admitting their son murdered his family, along with acknowledging that the insane conspiracy theories out there are outright lies.

FYI, here's where the conspiracy wackos got the lie about CPS from: On discovery page 1637 there is a letter dated 10/01/2018 from the Weld County Department of Human/Social Services addressed to CW informing him that he has been identified as the person responsible for fatal child abuse and outlines the appeal process.

On the previous discovery page 1636, there is a cover page to the same letter which was dated 10/15/2014, an obvious typo. It references the following attachment "CMI.4" which was of course, the letter dated 10/01/2018 to CW.

Good that it's in there. IMO it got spread around by representatives of the family, and by the sites they influenced who monetized it, I watched it develop, first that she never could be alone with her own children, and then, when it became obvious that she was frequently alone with her children, they turned it into "she could only be with them for 90 minutes at a time, or each day".

 

[MassGuy]

Thanks for the review. I'll probably read it if it turns up free in my browser, but I heard it doesn't even have the letters in it. I would be more interested in reading the raw letters rather than having her paraphrase the parts she finds interesting. She doesn't seem to have a knowledgeable background in the case, anymore than people on the street.

It does have some letters in their entirely. I’m not sure how many though.

He loves his exclamation points too.

 

[NuttMegg]

It does have some letters in their entirely. I’m not sure how many though.

He loves his exclamation points too.

I can't imagine the culture shock in a boy who grew up like he did, ending up with a woman like his mistress.

 

[gitana1]

8:08 (Scott Reisch) I mean parents have a job in life and that is to protect their children, I don’t care whether it’s us humans or anywhere in nature, but what do the parents or the mother always does is they protect their children throughout life and for a parent to actually do that, I think it makes just people, it shocks the conscience is what it really does…..

8:31 (Cadle) Right, it was interesting to me one time he made the comment to me that he had read and learned that parents just don’t kill children, their children, and of course we know it happens, but it was interesting that he had to look that up, he had to read about that without knowing his instinct should have been there to not to kill his children

…………..

9:49 (Cadle) he may be book smart, I don’t doubt that because I will tell you he has extreme recall of things that he reads, I have never heard anyone quote the bible like the guy does, he can quote scripture after scripture it…..amazing, anything that he reads..

10:18 (Cadle) but he doesn’t have common sense and what really struck me about his social skills is I think he was so controlled his whole life and I’m not talking Shannan, I’m talking before that his thoughts were controlled or at least were tried, they tried to control his thoughts to the point that he has leaned upon someone all of his life to tell him what to do, what to do next, and what decision to make, so if that’s common sense I don’t know.

1053: (Scott R) Well he’s definitely gonna get that in prison……continued

Bingo. I believe he was raised by a narcissist who subsumed his identity. Until he had no needs or emotions that didn’t mirror those around him.

Then he met NK. Felt strong sexual attraction which became obsession because it was a feeling. People raised by narcissists sometimes are so terrified of having their own needs that they just don’t have needs.

But I was just reading that if some crisis happens, they can suddenly experience need panic.

My feeling is that the crisis was falling for a woman who wouldn’t tolerate having a man who already had children and was about to have his first son. He was obsessed with being with her. I believe she punished him for having a family with petulance and withdrawing. That terrified him. He had a sudden overwhelming need to be with this woman. So he had to murder his family and get that need met.

His behavior from start to finish makes a lot of sense for me in the context of a person raised by a narcissistic parent. How he never expressed anger (according to his sister). How he was always just going along and in the background. A perfect child. Much like Scott Peterson.

How he met a strong woman and mated with her because that way he wouldn’t have to make decisions based on feelings he was never allowed to have.

How when he met NK and experienced a strong sexual attraction it not only broke the monotony of family life that almost everyone experiences at some point, it also caused him to have “a” strong emotion. Which was likely super foreign to him. And thus like a drug.

So if and when NK began indicating she might bail due to him having “firsts” she demanded with a mate, he may have experienced “need panic” and had to do whatever he could to get that need met.

“Narcissistic parents can make their children terrified of their needs, who bury them by becoming compulsive caretakers or simply falling silent. They may hum along for a while, seeming to need nothing from their partners or friends. Then, a crisis hits, and suddenly—in ways they find deeply unsettling—they call their friends incessantly or seek constant reassurance. The quickest way to eliminate a need, after all, is to get it met immediately; paradoxically, the people most afraid of their needs are apt to seem the most “needy.””

8 Common, Long-Lasting Effects of Narcissistic Parenting

 

[gitana1]

I think this was a fantastic post! I think the reason so many people are deeply invested in this case is because CW displayed no signs of being anything other than a hard working, loving husband and father.

We have a desperate need to find out why.... why did he do these atrocious things? What drives a "normal" loving husband and father to annihilate his whole family?

I'm disappointed CW has refused psychological assessment as he doesn't feel he's "mentally ill" I feel studying people who commit such unforseeable crimes like this can give us invaluable insight into how these people tick, and maybe help prevent it from happening again.

I believe he's letting the truth trickle through with every "confession" I believe he was so infatuated with NK and scared that even divorce wouldn't have been good enough for her, that he chose to eradicate his whole family so it could never be a problem for NK again.

Why couldn’t he have just divorced SW and become another “deadbeat dad” like we hear of so often when another woman comes on the scene? Because he couldn’t bear to lose his “good guy” image.

Edited to add MOO

Yeah. And I tend to believe a lot of his latest confession as well. Including that he may have tried to smother the girl’s first. We know he killed them via smothering. Bella’s eyes could’ve indeed appeared bruised from lack of oxygen. I don’t know how long something like that would be visible after death floating in oil for days.

 

[NuttMegg]

Bingo. I believe he was raised by a narcissist who subsumed his identity. Until he had no needs or emotions that didn’t mirror those around him.

Then he met NK. Felt strong sexual attraction which became obsession because it was a feeling. People raised by narcissists sometimes are so terrified of having their own needs that they just don’t.

But I was just reading that if some crisis happens, they can suddenly experience need panic.

My feeling is that the crisis was falling for a woman who wouldn’t tolerate having a man who already had children and was shot to have his first son. He was obsessed with being with her. I believe she punished him for having a family with petulance and withdrawing. That terrified him. He had a sudden overwhelming need to be with this woman. So he had to murder his family and get they need met.

His behavior from start to finish makes a lot of sense for me in the context of a person raised by a narcissistic parent. How he never expressed anger (according to his sister). How he was always just going along and in the background. A perfect child. Much like Scott Peterson.

How he met a strong woman and mated with her because that way he wouldn’t have to make decisions based on feelings he was never allowed to have.

How when he met NK and experienced a strong sexual attraction it not only broke the monotony of family life that almost everyone experiences at some point, it also causes him to have “a” strong emotion. Which was likely super foreign to him. And this like a drug.

So if and when NK began indicating she might bail due to him having “firsts” she demanded with a mate, he may have experienced need panic and had to do whatever he could to get that need met.

“Narcissistic parents can make their children terrified of their needs, who bury them by becoming compulsive caretakers or simply falling silent. They may hum along for a while, seeming to need nothing from their partners or friends. Then, a crisis hits, and suddenly—in ways they find deeply unsettling—they call their friends incessantly or seek constant reassurance. The quickest way to eliminate a need, after all, is to get it met immediately; paradoxically, the people most afraid of their needs are apt to seem the most “needy.””

8 Common, Long-Lasting Effects of Narcissistic Parenting

Gitana, reading between the lines of what we already knew, and what we are learning about his childhood and adolescence, IMO he was a virgin when he met SW.

 

[gitana1]

I’ve read screenshots of the book, and it’s written almost as poorly as the stuff that hack Nick Van der Leek writes.

It’s horrible. Chris Watts’ letters are just as poorly written, and I’d be shocked if his true IQ doesn’t reflect that. Dude’s an idiot.

It’s a mass of contradictions from a man who wants to fool the world into believing that he’s a changed man, because he’s “found God.”

Basically, “the devil made me do it.”

It’s completely self serving, much like the book that John List published from behind bars.

He has a lot of nerve daring to preach to the public after what he has done. Disgusting.

 

[gitana1]

They weren't people to him by then, if they ever had been (see the Scott Reisch interview above, he had to look up why a man would not kill his own children). He cared more about his co-workers learning about his deeds, he showed more emotion at that time than any other during the 1st interviews.
Somehow he was born, grew up, getting completely skewed by the people who raised him, IMO. There must have been something evil in him from when he was conceived and then having his female relatives enact a tug of war over how to raise him must have been horrible, all that continuous reinforcement on being "sweet". IMO

I read a book about Scott Peterson by a psychologist who described how he had to be this perfect “golden child” in order to survive and get any needs met by his narcissistic mother. Kid never cried. He appeared “perfect”. All the way until he killed his pregnant wife.

 

[gitana1]

Good that it's in there. IMO it got spread around by representatives of the family, and by the sites they influenced who monetized it, I watched it develop, first that she never could be alone with her own children, and then, when it became obvious that she was frequently alone with her children, they turned it into "she could only be with them for 90 minutes at a time".

That family has zero shame. No wonder a baby killer came from that. It’s incredible how they dare with this insane cruelty. It reminds so much of the Anthony family.

 

[gitana1]

Gitana, reading between the lines of what we already knew, and what we are learning about his childhood and adolescence, IMO he was a virgin when he met SW.

You’re probably right!

 

[MCDRAW]

Perfectly said! I couldn’t agree with you more.

The fact for almost all of us is if we looked hard enough at our own relationships we would see the “warning signs” some say SW could and/or should have seen. Frankly lots of us would probably see more “signs” than CW exhibited to his wife. Yet most of us are thankfully in normal, basically healthy relationships. And the vast majority of the ones who aren’t will simply get a divorce.

I think it’s easy for everyone who didn’t know SW and CW to believe there had to be something different, something worse, something telling about how he behaved. Or what he said. Something if you looked close enough into their lives or into his eyes you could see. But those of us who knew them are painfully aware that there wasn’t ANYTHING that indicated he was this sick. This evil. This different than other people we know or the loved ones in our own lives.

I know for a bit many of us wondered if we should be creeped out or frightened by things happening in our own homes. A spouse wants to get life insurance policies. A sibling starts watching true crime tv. A teenager gets moody and silent. We’d mostly joke about it, but deep inside we wondered. We got over it though, realizing if you look hard enough anyone might seem like a threat. Yet almost no-one actually is.

It’s comforting to think that CW was hollow, empty and dangerous from the get go. And maybe he was. Maybe he was just a tremendous actor. But IMO he found genuine joy in his girls and loved them and his wife as much as some people can love, and more than some others. Until he didn’t.

We can read 100 books about him and still may not know why he instead of one of the 1000’s of other unfaithful, unhappy spouses, was the one who callously harmed his family in such an unthinkable heinous way.

What I’d really like to know is if there was ever a time when he honestly believed he could never hurt his wife and babies. Like a “normal” person. Or if he aways knew he had this in him. If I had to bet, I’d say he would have found it unthinkable. Until it wasn’t.

Do you think his families hatred of Shanann, helped with his decision to kill them? Their hatred for Shanann shows plainly. They didn't appear to love those little girls very much. Just my opinion but they have only whined about their son and how Shanann caused this. Nothing about the babies. JMO

 

[NuttMegg]

You’re probably right!

Nothing wrong with being a 25 year old virgin, just that he never went through what the rest of us did in high school, ie the intense first obsession of sexual love, often ending in emotional disaster, but we learned from it.
He didn't go to dances or social events in high school, he stayed home watching tv with the parents. He thought even singing was wrong, along with dancing, drinking, etc. His mother heard him going through religious verbalizations in an OCD manner in the bathroom. His mother always quizzed him on what he was thinking. His mother and her mother, who took care of CW did not get along.

This fits into what you were saying, so far, he gets to 25 and never was in a situation where he would have to show individuality or anything out of the mold = nice guy. He occupies his place in his marriage while SW managed things, due to his lack of stepping up to the plate, except he had a job. Assumed her ambitions at least on the surface. Assumed her love of children, at least on the surface...it's comfortable if not "real".
So, eventually he runs into the mistress and all of that is suddenly on his plate, minus children, mortgages, he wants to just switch loyalty and obedience to her, but he simply can't. The family is in his way.

 

[DaisyKenny]

That family has zero shame. No wonder a baby killer came from that. It’s incredible how they dare with this insane cruelty. It reminds so much of the Anthony family.

It's much worse than them lying about Shanann. The insane lies out there implicate Shanann's family and friends in an elaborate conspiracy to frame CW and cover up the suicide of Shanann and that she was the 'real killer'.

The conspiracy wackos claim that everyone who worked on the case was in on railroading CW. They also use the lie about CPS involvement to accuse DA Rourke of fabricating evidence because he supposedly had dealt with the Rzucek family before.

All obvious lies that no sane person with an ounce of common sense would believe. But since the Rzuceks have been harassed and even received death threats, their lies can't go unchallenged.

And to think how the author of Cindy's book had the gall to compare hatred toward the Watts to the re-victimization that the Sandy Hook families have been through because of Alex Jones.

 

[gitana1]

It's much worse than them lying about Shanann. The insane lies out there implicate Shanann's family and friends in an elaborate conspiracy to frame CW and cover up the suicide of Shanann and that she was the 'real killer'.

The conspiracy wackos claim that everyone who worked on the case was in on railroading CW. They also use the lie about CPS involvement to accuse DA Rourke of fabricating evidence because he supposedly had dealt with the Rzucek family before.

All obvious lies that no sane person with an ounce of common sense would believe. But since the Rzuceks have been harassed and even received death threats, their lies can't go unchallenged.

And to think how the author of Cindy's book had the gall to compare hatred toward the Watts to the re-victimization that the Sandy Hook families have been through because of Alex Jones.

On my gosh that's super sick.

 

[NuttMegg]

It's much worse than them lying about Shanann. The insane lies out there implicate Shanann's family and friends in an elaborate conspiracy to frame CW and cover up the suicide of Shanann and that she was the 'real killer'.

The conspiracy wackos claim that everyone who worked on the case was in on railroading CW. They also use the lie about CPS involvement to accuse DA Rourke of fabricating evidence because he supposedly had dealt with the Rzucek family before.

All obvious lies that no sane person with an ounce of common sense would believe. But since the Rzuceks have been harassed and even received death threats, their lies can't go unchallenged.

And to think how the author of Cindy's book had the gall to compare hatred toward the Watts to the re-victimization that the Sandy Hook families have been through because of Alex Jones.

If the Watts hadn't done those interviews hateful towards dead Shan'ann, and weaponized youtube sites to spread rumors, and now the leaked hate-SW book (five chapters and almost no mention of the murdered kids), no one would be talking about them. I would have thought they were unfortunate people who should be regarded with pity but respect.

 

[MsBetsy]

I read a book about Scott Peterson by a psychologist who described how he had to be this perfect “golden child” in order to survive and get any needs met by his narcissistic mother. Kid never cried. He appeared “perfect”. All the way until he killed his pregnant wife.

Yes, that may be the book, "Inside the mind of Scott Peterson" by Keith Ablow, which has many parallels between the Watts case and the
Peterson case.
The family dynamics, including the family history on both sides, are very similar.
We are apparently not allowed to discuss it here, but the case history of both Peterson and Watts and the psychology behind it is fascinating. Imo

 

[Best of What's Around]

Bingo. I believe he was raised by a narcissist who subsumed his identity. Until he had no needs or emotions that didn’t mirror those around him.

Then he met NK. Felt strong sexual attraction which became obsession because it was a feeling. People raised by narcissists sometimes are so terrified of having their own needs that they just don’t have needs.

But I was just reading that if some crisis happens, they can suddenly experience need panic.

My feeling is that the crisis was falling for a woman who wouldn’t tolerate having a man who already had children and was about to have his first son. He was obsessed with being with her. I believe she punished him for having a family with petulance and withdrawing. That terrified him. He had a sudden overwhelming need to be with this woman. So he had to murder his family and get that need met.

His behavior from start to finish makes a lot of sense for me in the context of a person raised by a narcissistic parent. How he never expressed anger (according to his sister). How he was always just going along and in the background. A perfect child. Much like Scott Peterson.

How he met a strong woman and mated with her because that way he wouldn’t have to make decisions based on feelings he was never allowed to have.

How when he met NK and experienced a strong sexual attraction it not only broke the monotony of family life that almost everyone experiences at some point, it also caused him to have “a” strong emotion. Which was likely super foreign to him. And thus like a drug.

So if and when NK began indicating she might bail due to him having “firsts” she demanded with a mate, he may have experienced “need panic” and had to do whatever he could to get that need met.

“Narcissistic parents can make their children terrified of their needs, who bury them by becoming compulsive caretakers or simply falling silent. They may hum along for a while, seeming to need nothing from their partners or friends. Then, a crisis hits, and suddenly—in ways they find deeply unsettling—they call their friends incessantly or seek constant reassurance. The quickest way to eliminate a need, after all, is to get it met immediately; paradoxically, the people most afraid of their needs are apt to seem the most “needy.””

8 Common, Long-Lasting Effects of Narcissistic Parenting

Thank you - that helps a lot. What do you think makes him different from others who would go through all of this but the result is simply leaving their family versus actually murdering? Did he ever see them as something with a life outside his? Or were they prized objects like a vintage car he could dispose of when no longer adored?