GUILTY CO - Shanann Watts (34), Celeste"Cece" (3) and Bella (4), Frederick, 13 Aug 2018 *CW LWOP* #72

[girlhasnoname]

Perfectly said! I couldn’t agree with you more.

The fact for almost all of us is if we looked hard enough at our own relationships we would see the “warning signs” some say SW could and/or should have seen. Frankly lots of us would probably see more “signs” than CW exhibited to his wife. Yet most of us are thankfully in normal, basically healthy relationships. And the vast majority of the ones who aren’t will simply get a divorce.

I think it’s easy for everyone who didn’t know SW and CW to believe there had to be something different, something worse, something telling about how he behaved. Or what he said. Something if you looked close enough into their lives or into his eyes you could see. But those of us who knew them are painfully aware that there wasn’t ANYTHING that indicated he was this sick. This evil. This different than other people we know or the loved ones in our own lives.

I know for a bit many of us wondered if we should be creeped out or frightened by things happening in our own homes. A spouse wants to get life insurance policies. A sibling starts watching true crime tv. A teenager gets moody and silent. We’d mostly joke about it, but deep inside we wondered. We got over it though, realizing if you look hard enough anyone might seem like a threat. Yet almost no-one actually is.

It’s comforting to think that CW was hollow, empty and dangerous from the get go. And maybe he was. Maybe he was just a tremendous actor. But IMO he found genuine joy in his girls and loved them and his wife as much as some people can love, and more than some others. Until he didn’t.

We can read 100 books about him and still may not know why he instead of one of the 1000’s of other unfaithful, unhappy spouses, was the one who callously harmed his family in such an unthinkable heinous way.

What I’d really like to know is if there was ever a time when he honestly believed he could never hurt his wife and babies. Like a “normal” person. Or if he aways knew he had this in him. If I had to bet, I’d say he would have found it unthinkable. Until it wasn’t.

ITA and what a beautifully thoughtful post. It really made me think long and hard and brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing your honest opinions here CO303.

 

[DaisyKenny]

2 out of my 3 prescriptions right now are in white bottles.

I've recently learned pharmacies will dispense in the manufacturer's bottle if the prescription matches the bottle count. However a 100 count 80mg oxy bottle would be more than a one month supply from what I've read.

Anyway, it should be easy enough to determine whether it was Shanann's prescription because opioids are a controlled substance. When the vet gave me a even a few tiny doses for my cat after his surgery, they had to see my license and create a record.

But I still don't believe it was Shanann's prescription because CW said he gave her the 80mg oxy whole and she took it thinking it was over-the-counter pain reliever. (source "Letters From Christopher")

Since he gave her the tablet after she claimed to have a bad headache and told her he would get something for it, I now believe he got the oxy in NC.

As for how he got it, I think it probably more a situation like @Colorado303 suggested: "Or he was complaining of back pain and said he didn’t have time to go to the doctor ...."

 

[MsBetsy]

I've recently learned pharmacies will dispense in the manufacturer's bottle if the prescription matches the bottle count. However a 100 count 80mg oxy bottle would be more than a one month supply from what I've read.

Anyway, it should be easy enough to determine whether it was Shanann's prescription because opioids are a controlled substance. When the vet gave me a even a few tiny doses for my cat after his surgery, they had to see my license and create a record.

But I still don't believe it was Shanann's prescription because CW said he gave her the 80mg oxy whole and she took it thinking it was over-the-counter pain reliever. (source "Letters From Christopher")

Since he gave her the tablet after she claimed to have a bad headache and told her he would get something for it, I now believe he got the oxy in NC.

As for how he got it, I think it probably more a situation like @Colorado303 suggested: "Or he was complaining of back pain and said he didn’t have time to go to the doctor ...."

There is no evidence that either Shannan or Chris had a prescription for oxycodone, or that he gave her an 80 mg pill.

Starting dose for this medication is 5-15 milligrams. Even 20 or 30 mg is considered an overdose and would cause someone to be very ill.



It would take a very long time to build up enough tolerance to be able to take 80 mg.

Usually the dose would be increased every six months by no more than 15 milligrams. So even after a year the appropriate dose would be about 45 milligrams. And that's only for patients with chronic pain, who need to take it every day.

If someone took 80 mg, there is no way it could be mistaken for over the counter medication. Shannan would have ended up in the hospital if she had taken 80mg of oxycodone.

There is just no way that this is possible. Imo

 

[DaisyKenny]

There is no evidence that either Shannan or Chris had a prescription for oxycodone, or that he gave her an 80 mg pill.

Starting dose for this medication is 5-15 milligrams. Even 20 or 30 mg is considered an overdose and would cause someone to be very ill.



It would take a very long time to build up enough tolerance to be able to take 80 mg.

Usually the dose would be increased every six months by no more than 15 milligrams. So even after a year the appropriate dose would be about 45 milligrams. And that's only for patients with chronic pain, who need to take it every day.

If someone took 80 mg, there is no way it could be mistaken for over the counter medication. Shannan would have ended up in the hospital if she had taken 80mg of oxycodone.

There is just no way that this is possible. Imo

Yes, it could be yet another lie from CW, but that's what he told Cadle. Just like we're supposed to believe that he didn't preselect CERVI 319.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes, it could be yet another lie from CW, but that's what he told Cadle. Just like we're supposed to believe that he didn't preselect CERVI 319.

Yeah, for him to claim he gave her that much would be like saying he gave her 10 shots of whiskey and she never noticed. Imo

 

[DaisyKenny]

Yeah, for him to claim he gave her that much would be like saying he gave her 10 shots of whiskey and she never noticed. Imo

All I know is there have been insane conspiracy theories out there about the oxy for many months. One suggesting Shanann tried to abort using it in NC and another suggesting Shanann committed suicide from overdosing instead of being strangled.

CW also told Cadle he gave it to Shanann before strangling her, claiming the medical examiner found evidence of oxy (no evidence in autopsy). He later told Cadle that wasn't true and he only gave it to her in NC.

CW also supposedly said in a recording released a few days ago that he got the oxy from the basement bin. In the book he claims that he would never reveal the source and take it to his grave.

So there seems to be a lot of disinformation, some of it getting back to CW, which he uses to embellish his lies.

Then again, we have to remember Cadle said that the Watts tried to push her into selling the narrative that Shanann was the 'real killer'.

 

[Gardenista]

Perfectly said! I couldn’t agree with you more.

The fact for almost all of us is if we looked hard enough at our own relationships we would see the “warning signs” some say SW could and/or should have seen. Frankly lots of us would probably see more “signs” than CW exhibited to his wife. Yet most of us are thankfully in normal, basically healthy relationships. And the vast majority of the ones who aren’t will simply get a divorce.

I think it’s easy for everyone who didn’t know SW and CW to believe there had to be something different, something worse, something telling about how he behaved. Or what he said. Something if you looked close enough into their lives or into his eyes you could see. But those of us who knew them are painfully aware that there wasn’t ANYTHING that indicated he was this sick. This evil. This different than other people we know or the loved ones in our own lives.

I know for a bit many of us wondered if we should be creeped out or frightened by things happening in our own homes. A spouse wants to get life insurance policies. A sibling starts watching true crime tv. A teenager gets moody and silent. We’d mostly joke about it, but deep inside we wondered. We got over it though, realizing if you look hard enough anyone might seem like a threat. Yet almost no-one actually is.

It’s comforting to think that CW was hollow, empty and dangerous from the get go. And maybe he was. Maybe he was just a tremendous actor. But IMO he found genuine joy in his girls and loved them and his wife as much as some people can love, and more than some others. Until he didn’t.

We can read 100 books about him and still may not know why he instead of one of the 1000’s of other unfaithful, unhappy spouses, was the one who callously harmed his family in such an unthinkable heinous way.

What I’d really like to know is if there was ever a time when he honestly believed he could never hurt his wife and babies. Like a “normal” person. Or if he aways knew he had this in him. If I had to bet, I’d say he would have found it unthinkable. Until it wasn’t.

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are many, many people who suffer from domestic abuse and no one on the outside of the relationship has the slightest clue.

 

[Colorado303]

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are many, many people who suffer from domestic abuse and no one on the outside of the relationship has the slightest clue.

That’s certainly true, and there’s no way to be absolutely sure SW wasn’t hiding abuse. However, I think it’s much less likely in her case because she shared virtually everything w/her close girlfriends. The good, the bad, the mundane. We saw some of that in the texts that were released as evidence.

I respect your opinion and your right to have it. But as someone who knew SW and CW personally and know some of her closest friends very well, I’m quite confident there was no physical abuse. However I’m sure it’s less unsettling to be convinced her friends, family, neighbors, co-workers and the coroner are ALL mistaken instead.

 

[MummyRatcliffe]

Respectfully I actually disagree with a lot of what you've said here. I do agree he was symbolically killing his mother. I said early on I felt she annihilated his identity and due to the deep enmeshment of his family of origin, he didn't see his kids and wife as separate from himself (which, having an apparently narcissistic mother, means her) so he annihilated his family (and thereby annhilated his non-existent self and his mother).

But I very much disagree with most of the balance. Shanann could not have prevented the murder. There was no working on the marriage or herself as a means to prevent that psychopath from killing her and her girls.

His "mousiness" was not within her control. And if he was unhappy it was up to him to speak up, not up to her to know something was wrong and change herself.

I see nothing much wrong with Shanann. Of course not perfect but she didn't seem controlling to me. She had a strong personality and filled the void his annihilated soul created. Which is why he picked her. He had no identity so he liked women who had strong ones.

But no one could ever really make up for what he lacked.

Regardless, he didn't exhibit psychopathic behaviors, IMO. In fact that was discussed on here by one of our psych experts.

He exhibited nothing much until he annihilated his family.

But Shanann very much knew their marriage was in trouble. She discussed that a lot in text messages and other correspondence.

So? That couldn't have saved her and her kids' lives because no one can keep a marriage at a fever pitch at all times and someone like CW with an annihilated soul likely went through life feeling a lot of nothingness. So he would be prone to equating the heady excitement of a new sexual relationship with love and life. It would've obsessed him. Because it caused him to feel something. Something strong admidst years of gray blandness.

His marriage could've been perfect and never could have competed with that because no marriage can ever sustain that level of excitement. So he was obsessed.

And then, NK wanted a man who didn't have kids or baggage.

So even if Shanann had left him, he was still going to kill his wife and kids, IMO. Because NK was pressuring him not to have a family, as inexplicable as that is.

I believe it would have been impossible for Shanann to realize the danger he posed or signs that something that dark was within him, because the very thing about these types of family annihilators that is so insanely shocking to everyone is that: There. Are. No. Signs.

There are millions of quiet, unhappy men who let their wives run their lives, who sit in the shadows and don't express themselves and pretty much none of them do what CW did.

Most family annihilators in general have a history of mental illness or criminal records/domestic abuse histories. What sets apart a man like CW is there are no signs. There's nothing that could remotely have warned anyone who knew him, including his wife, that there was something that dangerous within him.

They're masters of the mask.

I believe this line of thinking (that had she just been more sensitive and self-reflective she would possibly be alive) comes from fear. She wasn't sensitive and self-reflective. She wasn't a good wife. So she got killed. But I'm sensitive and self-reflective.
I'm a good wife. So this won't happen to me.

Meh. I believe this can happen to anyone. It's rare but when it occurs it comes out of the blue and cannot typically be predicted nor stopped. Maybe a random sixth sense might help someone now and then but the inexplicable doesn't lend itself to protective measures.

The value of learning about these people is about solving crime. Based on studies this is too complex and the signs are too vague and too common to help prevent a family from being annihilated by this particular kind of family annihilator.

I think this was a fantastic post! I think the reason so many people are deeply invested in this case is because CW displayed no signs of being anything other than a hard working, loving husband and father.

We have a desperate need to find out why.... why did he do these atrocious things? What drives a "normal" loving husband and father to annihilate his whole family?

I'm disappointed CW has refused psychological assessment as he doesn't feel he's "mentally ill" I feel studying people who commit such unforseeable crimes like this can give us invaluable insight into how these people tick, and maybe help prevent it from happening again.

I believe he's letting the truth trickle through with every "confession" I believe he was so infatuated with NK and scared that even divorce wouldn't have been good enough for her, that he chose to eradicate his whole family so it could never be a problem for NK again.

Why couldn’t he have just divorced SW and become another “deadbeat dad” like we hear of so often when another woman comes on the scene? Because he couldn’t bear to lose his “good guy” image.

Edited to add MOO

 

[Gardenista]

That’s certainly true, and there’s no way to be absolutely sure SW wasn’t hiding abuse. However, I think it’s much less likely in her case because she shared virtually everything w/her close girlfriends. The good, the bad, the mundane. We saw some of that in the texts that were released as evidence.

I respect your opinion and your right to have it. But as someone who knew SW and CW personally and know some of her closest friends very well, I’m quite confident there was no physical abuse. However I’m sure it’s less unsettling to be convinced her friends, family, neighbors, co-workers and the coroner are ALL mistaken instead.

I don't think there was physical abuse either.

 

[smallfry345]

Did they ever find the girls' stuffed animals and blankets?

 

[MsBetsy]

I don't think there was physical abuse either.

I doubt there was either and emotional abuse can be very subtle. It can take years for even the person in the marriage to recognize mental abuse.
I don't know if this occurred in their marriage but I do think Chris tried to appear to be a loving husband and father.

We know it's likely he didn't feel emotions like most people do based on the things that he googled about how one feels when they're in love.
I think for a long time CW invested everything he had in his marriage and was disappointed when he didn't feel adored by his wife and kids any longer.

He probably equated physical feelings and sex with love and this is why he was so obsessed with his lover and couldn't bring himself to be affectionate with his wife anymore.

It wasn't until this time that Shannan felt something was very wrong in her marriage.
It's so sad and unfortunate that she tried so hard to repair their relationship in the days before her murder.

If only Chris had been honest and faced reality instead of pretending everything was going to be ok.
He made a conscious decision to get rid of his entire family instead of giving Shannan and his children a chance to go on living their lives without him.
He thought only of himself, with no regard or empathy for his wife and daughters. It was easy to kill them because he had already distanced himself from them and objectified them.

These are the things he needs to admit if he has anything to say at this point at all. He needs to take full responsibility for the murder.

Instead, he has decided to be the focus of attention again by making up new and shocking details about the murder.

Does he really think this is what Shannan's family and loved ones want to hear?

He is just catering to all the people who read gossip magazines or are still obsessed with the case or believe Shannan somehow brought this all on herself.

Imo

 

[DaisyKenny]

Did they ever find the girls' stuffed animals and blankets?

I think in the book he told Cadle that he left those at the murder site, but they were not recovered. I believe he threw them away with his murder clothes.

Because he did take their stuff animals and blankets, that's another indication that Bella and Cece were alive when they left the house. He also told Cadle that he thought the jig was up when he was at the neighbor's watching the footage of himself loading the truck. He saw the shadow(s) because he knew what happened.

Colorado District Attorney: Chris Watts' recent murder confession mostly 'truthful, credible'

Rourke said some pieces of evidence match Watts' most recent confession, including footage from a neighbor's security camera that shows another shadow aside from Watts' by his truck when he was loading Shanann's body into the back seat.

In the video released by the Weld County District Attorney's Office, Watts is seen standing by his work truck when another shadow appears to be moving toward him, and Watts leans down to pick something up, likely one of the girls.

That video "would be consistent with his statements that the girls were alive when they left the house and walked out to the truck," Rourke said.​

 

[MummyRatcliffe]

I think in the book he told Cadle that he left those at the murder site, but they were not recovered. I believe he threw them away with his murder clothes.

Because he did take their stuff animals and blankets, that's another indication that Bella and Cece were alive when they left the house. He also told Cadle that he thought the jig was up when he was at the neighbor's watching the footage of himself loading the truck. He saw the shadow(s) because he knew what happened.

Colorado District Attorney: Chris Watts' recent murder confession mostly 'truthful, credible'

Rourke said some pieces of evidence match Watts' most recent confession, including footage from a neighbor's security camera that shows another shadow aside from Watts' by his truck when he was loading Shanann's body into the back seat.

In the video released by the Weld County District Attorney's Office, Watts is seen standing by his work truck when another shadow appears to be moving toward him, and Watts leans down to pick something up, likely one of the girls.

That video "would be consistent with his statements that the girls were alive when they left the house and walked out to the truck," Rourke said.​

I'm so relieved the DA has confirmed they believe at least one of the girls was alive as you could clearly see her shadow appear on that tape, so many people mocked everyone that believed it. Although it is all the more heartbreaking that they had to travel at least 45 minutes with their mothers dead body below them, I can't imagine the fear and terror they felt in those last minutes. RIP beautiful angels

 

[DaisyKenny]

One more thing I want to address is the insane conspiracy theory about CPS being involved and Shanann only being allowed around her girls 90 minutes a day. CW wrote in his letter to Cadle that the first time he heard about this lie was from his parents.

He said there is no validity to this insane claim and that Shanann was alone with the girls on the weekends when he worked.

He said the reason (in addition to wanting to give her girls a head start in life) Shanann wanted them to go to preschool was so she could concentrate on building her Thrive business.

IMO instead of trying to discredit the author of "Letters From Christopher", the Watts should issue an official statement apologizing to the Rzucek family, admitting their son murdered his family, along with acknowledging that the insane conspiracy theories out there are outright lies.

FYI, here's where the conspiracy wackos got the lie about CPS from: On discovery page 1637 there is a letter dated 10/01/2018 from the Weld County Department of Human/Social Services addressed to CW informing him that he has been identified as the person responsible for fatal child abuse and outlines the appeal process.

On the previous discovery page 1636, there is a cover page to the same letter which was dated 10/15/2014, an obvious typo. It references the following attachment "CMI.4" which was of course, the letter dated 10/01/2018 to CW.

 

[human]

I'm so relieved the DA has confirmed they believe at least one of the girls was alive as you could clearly see her shadow appear on that tape, so many people mocked everyone that believed it. Although it is all the more heartbreaking that they had to travel at least 45 minutes with their mothers dead body below them, I can't imagine the fear and terror they felt in those last minutes. RIP beautiful angels

All of that time driving with his children. He is more monstrous than a serial killer.

He is a nothing. Food in, food out. Gimme gimme gimme. Just me

 

[DaisyKenny]

All of that time driving with his children. He is more monstrous than a serial killer.

He is a nothing. Food in, food out. Gimme gimme gimme. Just me

Completely agree. He even wrote than he felt nothing but relief after doing away with the burden that was his family.

 

[Ravenesque]

I am thankful that the only place where I ever hear CWs name is on this site. I live in CO and news of him has disappeared.

 

[NuttMegg]

I am thankful that the only place where I ever hear CWs name is on this site. I live in CO and news of him has disappeared.

It's like poking one's head into a cesspool. One reason I won't buy that book is because I don't want to see it on my bookshelf and know that pure evil is right in there. I will read it, I know, a little hypocritical, I just don't want to run across the book on the shelf and be brought into that dirty but very sad place by accident.

 

[MummyRatcliffe]

All of that time driving with his children. He is more monstrous than a serial killer.

He is a nothing. Food in, food out. Gimme gimme gimme. Just me

I agree, there will never be words diabolical enough to describe what he is.

He had at least 45 minutes watching his children scared, whimpering.... 45 minutes to calm down, think more clearly, and spare his own flesh and blood, and he still chose to snuff them out like they were nothing. He makes my blood boil, my skin crawl and my heart break for what he did to those innocent babies, and Niko and Shannan.