CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #3

[MayraMM]

If Morgan had committed suicide, her being a writer and all, wouldn't she have left a note?

The suicide theory minus any proof is harsh and I'd like to know the exact reason they changed the cause to 'suicide'. Someone could have administered those drugs to Morgan without her knowledge. She mentioned to her dad that she didn't feel good before going to sleep.

Technically, right now suicide isn't a theory, but the COD. But, I for one would love to see a forensic analysis of her computer, phone, and camera. It's very possible she did leave a note (maybe even in photographic format) and it just hasn't been found yet, but even if she didn't leave one, a lot of people commit suicide without leaving a note. Perhaps her conversation with her father that night was all she needed.

But, if she has a secret file on her comp, a journal of some sort, then they need a professional to look at that. They should also look at that last text she sent out. If they hire a lawyer with an in-house investigator, that would go a long way to answering some of these questions. Barring that, a PI would be the way to go.

 

[raine1212]

Ok, theory one:

She was given part of the amitriptyline the night before, and it was enough to make her a bit off the next day... No appetite, somewhat moody, etc. During the day of her death she was given more of it mixed with the flexeril and some fruit juice. Before she went home, she was given the ground up Dalmane to mix with her water before bed to help her sleep to fight off the "cold" she thought she was developing. Once she fell asleep and all of the drugs kicked in, she quit breathing because of the pulonary edema and died. It may have been murder or someone who just didn't know what they were doing with the drugs.


NEXT!

or slowly several days before, had she started looking sick before her death

 

[MelissaDawn]

For one thing one of the small number of forensic pathologists in the country has stated that it wasn't handled properly.

Apparently Dr. Kurtzman, who did the original autopsy and report, is also one of the few forensic pathologists in the country - according to this site, anyway: http://coroner.mesacounty.us/mcweb/coroner/Robert Kurtzman CV.pdf

 

[Woe.be.gone]

It's a known and documented fact that 50% of suicides don't leave a "note"

I wasn't aware the percentage is that high. Regardless, Morgan was a writer per her mom - that was more my point. I'd lean more toward accidental overdose if other theories didn't pan out. Why jump to suicide unless there is evidence of that elsewhere (interviews with friends/ballet teacher, hints from her social media, etc.) that we don't know about.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

Technically, right now suicide isn't a theory, but the COD. But, I for one would love to see a forensic analysis of her computer, phone, and camera. It's very possible she did leave a note (maybe even in photographic format) and it just hasn't been found yet, but even if she didn't leave one, a lot of people commit suicide without leaving a note. Perhaps her conversation with her father that night was all she needed.

But, if she has a secret file on her comp, a journal of some sort, then they need a professional to look at that. They should also look at that last text she sent out. If they hire a lawyer with an in-house investigator, that would go a long way to answering some of these questions. Barring that, a PI would be the way to go.

The thing is, they might have this but the parents or mother won't accept it.

 

[raine1212]

I know I am not suppose to say this.. But it is posted in the Bullying threads. my 11 year old GD was being bullied and tried suicide twice and left no note either time. we are lucky we found her in time.. all i will say.. i hope I don't get into trouble for this

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Technically, right now suicide isn't a theory, but the COD. But, I for one would love to see a forensic analysis of her computer, phone, and camera. It's very possible she did leave a note (maybe even in photographic format) and it just hasn't been found yet, but even if she didn't leave one, a lot of people commit suicide without leaving a note. Perhaps her conversation with her father that night was all she needed.

But, if she has a secret file on her comp, a journal of some sort, then they need a professional to look at that. They should also look at that last text she sent out. If they hire a lawyer with an in-house investigator, that would go a long way to answering some of these questions. Barring that, a PI would be the way to go.

I posted another case, Rebecca Zahau in Coronado near San Diego, to give an example of where authorities label someone's death a suicide with little investigation and leaves one :waitasec:.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I know I am not suppose to say this.. But it is posted in the Bullying threads. my 11 year old GD was being bullied and tried suicide twice and left no note either time. we are lucky we found her in time.. all i will say.. i hope I don't get into trouble for this

Oh that's terrible. I'm glad you found her too. Also I hope she is being helped to discover ways to truly value herself regardless of what others say to her or about her. It makes me so sad to think of this happening to young people because of other young people who are so mean and sometimes relentlessly. Eleven is different than twenty though as to one's cognitive abilities. Still, regardless of age, it's case by case and some are clearly defined and some aren't.

 

[MelissaDawn]

Okay, I'm confused. This is from M's blog:

"A lot of you are pulling for the County to re-open this investigation, and I appreciate that. But I don’t agree. For Steve and I the relationship with the Sheriff’s department turned very adversarial when we had other experts review Morgan’s manner of death, that Dr. Kurtzman said was natural causes, and then had the gall to share the opinions of other experts with them, to suggest they were mistaken perhaps. It was the old, don’t confuse us with facts, our minds are already made up. And the Coroner Trey Holt is another story, he has been out of touch since day one. I was threatened that Morgan’s manner of death would be changed to suicide if I did not back off of trying to have her death changed to a homicide. And yes, I reported this verbal threat to the Sheriff’s department, just like I reported her missing jewelry."

Here's the link to the entry: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?m=20120910

In reading this, am I correct that Dr. Dobersen was actually the third(!) to review this case? Was there a problem with Trey Holt, then with Dr. Kurtzman, and then suddenly no problem with Dr. Dobersen?

I didn't find any information on whether or not Trey Holt has any medical qualifications, which apparently, depending on the county, is not a necessity. In which case I could definitely see questioning COD in a mysterious death if the first coroner has no medical degrees. However, by the statement quoted above, I'm not clear on who "threatened" to change the COD to suicide. Logic would have that the county coroner would be consulted first, which would be Trey Holt initiating the COD as natural causes; if questioned or just because of circumstances they bring in an ME. She says Dr. Kurtzman made the alleged threat, but then goes on about Trey Holt and the threat again. Now that, I think, is confusing.

 

[raine1212]

What we have is the death of a of a 20 year old woman, and we are seeing her through her mother's eyes. But if this was a suicide what drove this woman to do this... a stalker maybe maybe not, something tramatic happened to her and she could not tell her parents. Was she troubled by something, given up on life.. these are some of the questions we may never get answers to.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The thing is, they might have this but the parents or mother won't accept it.

On the flip side, a mother may know deep in her heart what sounds odd to everyone else. I believe that can be true because of mother's intuition.
Toni may have made up her mind because she knows what's true. We simply don't know and I hope for Toni's sake some evidence or someone takes notice that can help her get what she needs and uncover the truth.

 

[hambirg]

And you know how that the authorities didn't properly investigate this case? How do you know that this isn't a grieving mother that won't let go when everyone has tried to comfort her but she won't except it?

Once her COD was ruled natural causes all investigation would have ceased. Do we know what day that happened? While I think LE may have collected evidence, I don't think any of it was ever processed. COD=natural causes=case closed.

We have an independent forensic pathologist's report that he would have ruled her cause of death as "undertermined." Dobersen basically calls out Kurtzman and states it is unclear to him how Kurtzman arrived at his initial cause of death. Dobersen goes on to say that Kurtzman's failure to initially properly certify the cause of death prevented a proper investigation by LE.

So at best we have a ME that is incompetent or apathetic. At worst he is corrupt. I'm leaning towards incompetent myself. I think he jumped the gun with COD instead of waiting for the toxicology report, thus ceasing any investigation by LE. When the toxicology report came back as clearly amitriptyline intoxication. . .woops! Then the parents started asking questions and it was CYA and rule it a suicide.

The point isn't even whether someone believes it was a suicide vs a homicide. The point is is was clearly NOT natural causes and should have been investigated to determine which of those two it was. But it was not.

MOO

So I don't think it's just all in Mom's head.

 

[raine1212]

Okay, I'm confused. This is from M's blog:

"A lot of you are pulling for the County to re-open this investigation, and I appreciate that. But I don’t agree. For Steve and I the relationship with the Sheriff’s department turned very adversarial when we had other experts review Morgan’s manner of death, that Dr. Kurtzman said was natural causes, and then had the gall to share the opinions of other experts with them, to suggest they were mistaken perhaps. It was the old, don’t confuse us with facts, our minds are already made up. And the Coroner Trey Holt is another story, he has been out of touch since day one. I was threatened that Morgan’s manner of death would be changed to suicide if I did not back off of trying to have her death changed to a homicide. And yes, I reported this verbal threat to the Sheriff’s department, just like I reported her missing jewelry."


Here's the link to the entry: http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?m=20120910

In reading this, am I correct that Dr. Dobersen was actually the third(!) to review this case? Was there a problem with Trey Holt, then with Dr. Kurtzman, and then suddenly no problem with Dr. Dobersen?

I didn't find any information on whether or not Trey Holt has any medical qualifications, which apparently, depending on the county, is not a necessity. In which case I could definitely see questioning COD in a mysterious death if the first coroner has no medical degrees. However, by the statement quoted above, I'm not clear on who "threatened" to change the COD to suicide. Logic would have that the county coroner would be consulted first, which would be Trey Holt initiating the COD as natural causes; if questioned or just because of circumstances they bring in an ME. She says Dr. Kurtzman made the alleged threat, but then goes on about Trey Holt and the threat again. Now that, I think, is confusing.

'''
So does she want help or not. I am sorry but something is wrong.. Why not re-open the case, I thought this was what this was about

 

[Meri]

The stalking/harrassing could be a coincidence surrounding other pressing issues that Morgan was facing in her young life. I say this because not many nineteen year old peeps are 100 percent forthcoming with their parents regarding everything they're doing when they are out with their friends. I sure wasn't! Also, it would be nice to know what had been going on between Morgan and her boyfriends. How many guys come all the way from Australia to help an ex girlfriend's dad move his office ?

Snip/bold by me

I don't think he actually came here just to help the dad at his office. I think he was returning here and then came to visit them and that's what they did that day. It sounded like he had some sort of working relationship with Morgan's dad as when she came home he left to go do more work with the dad. I'm not sure if he is originally from Australia or if he was just visiting there and returning home, but either way, he had basically just returned.

 

[hambirg]

I'm sorry but that isn't what I saw!

It's all right here. . .

page 1
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?attachment_id=1135

page 2
http://morganingram.com/wordpress/?attachment_id=1136

 

[MelissaDawn]

'''
So does she want help or not. I am sorry but something is wrong.. Why not re-open the case, I thought this was what this was about

I think she means she wants it taken higher than the ones already involved, investigated by someone not involved with the original people who investigated and made the decisions.

 

[gitana1]

I wasn't aware the percentage is that high. Regardless, Morgan was a writer per her mom - that was more my point. I'd lean more toward accidental overdose if other theories didn't pan out. Why jump to suicide unless there is evidence of that elsewhere (interviews with friends/ballet teacher, hints from her social media, etc.) that we don't know about.

Myths
People who commit suicide always leave notes.

Truths
Most people don't leave notes. Only a small percentage leave any type of explanations about why they've chosen to kill themselves.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicidology

 

[raine1212]

night guys

 

[mysterygirl]

Until I see evidence of suicide, I'm not going with suicide.

I'd be more inclined to lean towards an accidental O.D.

It's bothering me that she felt bad that day..........

Where she went in the days preceding her death.....and what she could have been exposed to needs to be looked at IMO.

 

[Confusion]

Apparently Dr. Kurtzman, who did the original autopsy and report, is also one of the few forensic pathologists in the country - according to this site, anyway: http://coroner.mesacounty.us/mcweb/coroner/Robert Kurtzman CV.pdf

Actually, he's an Anatomic Pathologist, even if he did study some forensics.
http://www.ucomparehealthcare.com/drs/robert_kurtzman/

Dr.Doberson is an actual Forensic Pathologist.
http://www.michaeljdobersen.org/education.html

Forensic pathologists receive specialized training in determining the cause of death and other legally relevant information from the bodies of persons who died suddenly with no known medical condition, those who die from non-natural causes, as well as those dying as a result of homicide, or other criminally suspicious deaths. A majority of the forensic pathologists cases are due to natural causes. Often, additional tests such as toxicology, histology, and genetic testing will be used to help the pathologist determine the cause of death. Because of this, it is necessary for forensic pathologists to have a strong background in anatomical pathology before becoming forensic pathologists. Forensic pathologists will often testify in courts regarding their findings in cases of homicide and suspicious death. They also play a large role in public health, such as investigating deaths in the workplace, deaths in custody, as well as sudden and unexpected deaths in children. Forensic pathologists often have special areas of interest within their practice, such as sudden death due to cardiac pathology, deaths due to drugs, or Sudden Infant Death (SIDS), and various others.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatomical_pathology"]Anatomical pathology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]