CO - The Stalking and Mysterious Death of Morgan Ingram #4

[ScotsPaddy]

Just a quick THANKS to all the posters in this thread,i have been reading all the posts but keep forgetting to press the 'thanks' button..

 

[MelissaDawn]

From wiki article 'tricyclic antidepressant overdose' (and the reference articles in the footnotes are well-respected, peer-reviewed medical journals)
Tricyclics have a narrow therapeutic index, i.e., the therapeutic dose is close to the toxic dose.[3] In the medical literature the lowest reported toxic dose is 6.7 mg per kg body weight. Although there are differences in toxicity with the drug class, ingestions of 10 to 20 mg per kilogram of body weight are a risk for moderate to severe poisoning, however, doses ranging from 1.5 to 5 mg/kg may even present a risk. Most poison control centers refer any case of TCA poisoning (especially in children) to a hospital for monitoring.[5] Factors that increase the risk of toxicity include advancing age, cardiac status, and concomitant use of other drugs.[6] However, serum drug levels are not useful for evaluating risk of arrhythmia or seizure in tricyclic overdose.[7]

So, assuming Morgan weighed in the neighborhood of 50kg, a dose of only 75 to 250 mg. MAY have caused a fatal arrhythmia. I am trying to track down some other info - but I believe that the toxicology report would have reported blood levels in nanograms per DECIliter - not millimeter. VERY different - and would change a lot about the coroner's report as reported per mom.

I too wondered about the ng/mL as opposed to ng/dl - that could be as simple as a typo in the letter.

 

[mysterygirl]

From wiki article 'tricyclic antidepressant overdose' (and the reference articles in the footnotes are well-respected, peer-reviewed medical journals)
Tricyclics have a narrow therapeutic index, i.e., the therapeutic dose is close to the toxic dose.[3] In the medical literature the lowest reported toxic dose is 6.7 mg per kg body weight. Although there are differences in toxicity with the drug class, ingestions of 10 to 20 mg per kilogram of body weight are a risk for moderate to severe poisoning, however, doses ranging from 1.5 to 5 mg/kg may even present a risk. Most poison control centers refer any case of TCA poisoning (especially in children) to a hospital for monitoring.[5] Factors that increase the risk of toxicity include advancing age, cardiac status, and concomitant use of other drugs.[6] However, serum drug levels are not useful for evaluating risk of arrhythmia or seizure in tricyclic overdose.[7]

So, assuming Morgan weighed in the neighborhood of 50kg, a dose of only 75 to 250 mg. MAY have caused a fatal arrhythmia. I am trying to track down some other info - but I believe that the toxicology report would have reported blood levels in nanograms per DECIliter - not millimeter. VERY different - and would change a lot about the coroner's report as reported per mom.

Good post.

She was certainly a tiny little thing. We need to know the exact numbers for sure.

 

[polly1]

Thank you! I appreciate your link and I will go there pronto. Also, excellent idea, about taking hairs from Morgan's brush. !!!:rocker: Hope the Ingrams will do that with Dr. Doberson.

 

[ChunkyMonkey]

Hey!

It just hit me. I wonder if Morgan's mom has any left over hairbrushes that Morgan used.

Your hair holds results for months and she could have it tested for substances!

I *think* mom mentioned that she did keep a hairbrush and a few other things in a ziplocked bag, but I could be wring.

 

[laurafairlie]

She had lived for years with chronic abdominal pain and the after-effects of the CO poisoning, including the cognitive impairment (which, again, contradicts some of mom's claims of her accomplishments -- M may have felt inadequate). She was finally put on 25 mg of ami, which seemed to control her symptoms (all this, of course, per mom). When she turned 18, she took herself off the medication. Perhaps she found it too sedating, didn't want to be tied down by meds, or just didn't like how they made her feel. If the meds were controlling her pain, then it stands to reason being off the medication could have caused a relapse. Here she is young, wanting to be healthy, and either in pain or on medication. Maybe neither option was acceptable to her. We'll never know, unless, as you state, she confided in someone or kept a journal of some sort.

I like your question about the last book she read.

And I, too, would like to know if her friends felt she commit suicide or was killed. Their silence is deafening.

Respectfully, we don't know to what degree the abdominal pain and cognitive impairment were present in the year leading up to her death if at all, unless I've missed where that was stated. I can see how one could think it could be a factor, but I see nothing concrete to suggest this was the case.

 

[rollinginit]

I still think it's possible somebody slipped into her room and chloroformed her. Then stuck a long tube down her throat of all their grounded up medicine. Or maybe even held a gun or knife to her throat, threathing her if she screamed. Stayed around to make sure everything was taken care of...then slipped out the door. All bc they were scared of her talking to the LE the next week.
JMO! JMO! JMO! JMO

 

[Cazzie]

The hairbrush idea was discussed (last thread?) but someone said that (paraphrasing bigtime) not all drugs will show up in the hair or it needs to be prolonged usage (makes sense).

Not discouraging another look at this, tho. I'm open-minded, maybe there was prolonged usage. Either voluntarily or not (e.g., poisoning).

 

[rollinginit]

Hey!

It just hit me. I wonder if Morgan's mom has any left over hairbrushes that Morgan used.

Your hair holds results for months and she could have it tested for substances!

Mom says that she still has everything in a bag....bedcover, hairbrush. Etc....

 

[MelissaDawn]

I still think it's possible somebody slipped into her room and chloroformed her. Then stuck a long tube down her throat of all their grounded up medicine. Or maybe even held a gun or knife to her throat, threathing her if she screamed. Stayed around to make sure everything was taken care of...then slipped out the door. All bc they were scared of her talking to the LE the next week.
JMO! JMO! JMO! JMO

Forced by threat with gun/knife, possible. To have stuck a tube down her throat though, unless they were skilled at intubating people that would leave definite signs of throat trauma that would have been discovered on autopsy.

 

[MelissaDawn]

Mom says that she still has everything in a bag....bedcover, hairbrush. Etc....

Why don't they have those items independently tested? I mean, I certainly would if I were in their position - that alone could be grounds enough for reopening the case.

 

[Cazzie]

Forced by threat with gun/knife, possible. To have stuck a tube down her throat though, unless they were skilled at intubating people that would leave definite signs of throat trauma that would have been discovered on autopsy.

BBM.

Or should have been?

 

[cluciano63]

She had lived for years with chronic abdominal pain and the after-effects of the CO poisoning, including the cognitive impairment (which, again, contradicts some of mom's claims of her accomplishments -- M may have felt inadequate). She was finally put on 25 mg of ami, which seemed to control her symptoms (all this, of course, per mom). When she turned 18, she took herself off the medication. Perhaps she found it too sedating, didn't want to be tied down by meds, or just didn't like how they made her feel. If the meds were controlling her pain, then it stands to reason being off the medication could have caused a relapse. Here she is young, wanting to be healthy, and either in pain or on medication. Maybe neither option was acceptable to her. We'll never know, unless, as you state, she confided in someone or kept a journal of some sort.

I like your question about the last book she read.

And I, too, would like to know if her friends felt she commit suicide or was killed. Their silence is deafening.

I too am curious about what her friends think, or other people who knew Morgan, i.e. other relatives etc. When my sister was getting much worse before she died (not suicide but anorexia) we all saw it clearly and that she was close to death, but not my mom. She was in deep denial, I guess, because she couldn't do anything-she was over 18, and lied about eating to my mom all the time, etc...so my mom chose to believe her. I think back now and cannot recall ever seeing her actually putting a bite of food all the way into her mouth, but somehow she reduced the amount on her plate well enough. Later even napkins with food in them hidden here and there did not convince my mom, until much, much, later, long after she was dead. By then, her brain had cleared a bit (my mom's that is) and unfortunately she went back to blaming herself.

 

[MelissaDawn]

BBM.

Or should have been?

True, but Dr. Kurtzman has been in his position for a long time and I would think that much gross incompetency would have gotten him booted a lot earlier in his career. Missing an injection site under a fingernail is a different story, but missing severe throat damage, not so likely.

 

[rollinginit]

Why don't they have those items independently tested? I mean, I certainly would if I were in their position - that alone could be grounds enough for reopening the case.

Money, I would suspect.???????

 

[marycarney]

OK - according to the Mayo Clinical Medical Laboratory - you ADD TOGETHER the amitriptyline and nortriptyline levels - anything over 1000 nanograms per milliliter is considered 'toxic' - in other words, capable of causing lethal arrhythmia.

And I verified it IS measured in nanograms per milliliter.

A therapeutic dosage is 80-200 nanograms per milliliter. And so, only five times a therapeutic dose can be fatal. So, rather than 50+ pills......... it would be a much, much lower number, possibly only 5-10.

Source: http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/500509

 

[mysterygirl]

How about just lightly applied a transdermal patch..........waited, removed it as they left?

Or..........given cocktail right before coming home and going to bed.

 

[SmoothOperator]

I was unaware that questions were being deleted on the blog.

Is there a particular reason? Were they offensive or accusatory?

I'm really curious about this.

First noone's posts are being posted and then deleted..when you submit a post it does not immediately post but rather awaits approval..as do the vast majority of blogs each comment awaits approval by the blog owner before it ever is posted..so, yes there are comments that she did not approve and I suppose that is due to a wide variety of reasons and those reasons differ from each comment to the next..

I personally can attest to having posted comments that did not ever get publicly posted..from what I can tell its due to the way in which they are worded and the possible tone that could be correctly or incorrectly misconstrued by the reader(Toni) and totally different than what the writer(myself) intended or was meaning for the tone of the comment to actually be..

I found that in all instances but one that if i simply reworded my comment and was acutely aware and cautious of how my words may possibly come across as accusatory or confrontational and in doing so made certain to be extremely clear that neither of those were my intent..after having done so I found that those comments as well were publicly posted and most even answered with a reply from Toni..

I can say that from personal experience of posting comments on Morgans blog that it all boils down to appearing that Toni wants to keep the tone non-confrontational but does not at all mind anyone asking questions about any of the issues that anyone is unclear on.. I certainly find it to be appropriate that each comment awaits approval and that the blog owner only post that which she feels comfortable posting..again it appears as tho tone and nature of how the questions are asked are key and once I made certain that my words did not come across as accusatory or confrontational that regardless of what my question was about that Toni approved it and publicly posted it as well as answered several of them..

Atleast thats my personal take on the issue regarding the comments and due to my having actually experienced my posts not being approved I can attest to what seems to be the key issue with what/why Toni possibly does/does not post some of the submitted comments and questions..

Jmo..

 

[JBean]

:seeya:
Please: I am new too, posted some posts, not many. I keep reiterating how I feel: We need EVIDENCE instead of making suppositions based on one source. But now I have a VERY SINCERE QUESTION THAT I REALLY HOPE ONE OF YOU CAN ANSWER: IF we had access to the original toxi results/lab results, is there anyone on WS who is CERTIFIED to medically interpret the results correctly?
Thanks very much!:blushing:

No there is not.

 

[mysterygirl]

OK - according to the Mayo Clinical Medical Laboratory - you ADD TOGETHER the amitriptyline and nortriptyline levels - anything over 1000 nanograms per milliliter is considered 'toxic' - in other words, capable of causing lethal arrhythmia.

And I verified it IS measured in nanograms per milliliter.

A therapeutic dosage is 80-200 nanograms per milliliter. And so, only five times a therapeutic dose can be fatal. So, rather than 50+ pills......... it would be a much, much lower number, possibly only 5-10.

Source: http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/500509

And her level was 790?

I wonder why the parents were told it was one of the highest levels they had ever seen then?