CO - Tim Watkins, 61, shot to death, Mount Herman, 14 Sept 2017 #1

[ocgrad]

They found a gun in his possession, bought recently according to KN around the time of her birthday. I don't think we know the exact date.
My point is if DN shot TW he wouldn't still have the gun 11 days later would he? Especially with his propensity for getting pulled over.

Maybe the murder weapon was swopped or pawned to get a different one? There would be records of that right?

Moo

There should be records if he or she pawned it. But sometimes pawn shops break the law too. If he sold it to a private individual there would be no record. Likewise no record if he bought the one they had upon arrest from a private individual.

 

[Hatfield]

With CO willing to let him go it really makes me wonder how much evidence CO ended up getting from the crime scene and the body.

Did they look for gun casings all around that location where the body was located?

The body was likely moved from where the shot happened. So did they identify the location where shot was taken?

Did they recover an intact and not deformed bullet from the body where they could compare bullets to the known weapon he had?

If they did then what happened in the balistic test? No match or was the test never done?

It has been so quiet and then we hear CO is letting him go so it really makes me wonder how thorough of a job the investigation was. Wondering if we will we ever get any answers to questions like that.

 

[kizzykat]

They found a gun in his possession, bought recently according to KN around the time of her birthday. I don't think we know the exact date.
My point is if DN shot TW he wouldn't still have the gun 11 days later would he? Especially with his propensity for getting pulled over.

Maybe the murder weapon was swopped or pawned to get a different one? There would be records of that right?

Moo

Below is a portion of KN's youtube interview that I transcribed & posted in Libby & Abby's thread (Thread #73, post #329, 10/28/2017). It's the part about the gun and DN's access, in it she states when it was purchased.

Interview with Colorado Springs Gazette published 10/21/2017:
Katelyn bought a gun for protection. Daniel just got mad, she said. ...She's also not sure Daniel ever had access to her .22 caliber rifle, which she kept locked in the trunk of the car.
On the few times he'd leave them to find a new campsite, Katelyn said she often kept the gun with her for protection. She can't say whether she removed it every time Daniel took the car.
http://gazette.com/menacing-suspect-...rticle/1613703
http://www.jconline.com/story/news/2...des/788115001/

Youtube video interview published 10/26/17, 38:10 mark:
"Interviewer: Now the rifle...When did you buy the rifle?
KN: Um...around my birthday, so it was like the first week of September.
Interviewer: Of this year?
KN: Yes sir.
Interviewer: Now, did he have access to any other uh, like a pistol or rifle?
KN: Well we didn't have a pistol, we just had the .22 rifle....and he had access to it as much as I did."
https ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrB3vjyxFsw
(video link places a big pic on post so to remove it I put a space in the link )
<BBM>

So in less than a week's time she went from being unsure DN ever had access to the gun to DN having as much access as she did. (MOO: that's a pretty abrupt about-face. Wonder what prompted it?)

Short timeline of the .22 rifle presence per above:
First full calendar week of Sept was 9/3 - 9/9/2017. Or if referring to 1st week as first 7 days then 9/1-9/7/17.
So per KN gun was purchased sometime between 9/1-9/9/17.
TW went missing 9/14/2017
DN arrested 9/25/2017 on a weapons charge Woodland Park, CO

 

[Shiressleuth]

With CO willing to let him go it really makes me wonder how much evidence CO ended up getting from the crime scene and the body.

Did they look for gun casings all around that location where the body was located?

The body was likely moved from where the shot happened. So did they identify the location where shot was taken?

Did they recover an intact and not deformed bullet from the body where they could compare bullets to the known weapon he had?

If they did then what happened in the balistic test? No match or was the test never done?

It has been so quiet and then we hear CO is letting him go so it really makes me wonder how thorough of a job the investigation was. Wondering if we will we ever get any answers to questions like that.

I have wondered if all the belongings are going to Indiana along with DN?

 

[minazoe]

Perhaps they don"t think the TW case can be tried on circumstantial evidence only. This is so horrible. I know cops and others are very dismayed by the way this is playing out.

how ever we just don't know because they can have an end game and they are only playing along for sake of the media.

I hope so.

MOO

 

[Daey34]

Unless this is being pursued federally, in which case they bring those charges when he is extradited. National forest. Federal. State lines=federal.

It isn’t as simple as everyone is making it out to me.

IMO

Colorado has (DN's):
his gun
his hatchet
his car
his belongings
his phone (likely IMO)
his DNA from every orifice on his body (likely IMO)
his boot prints
his fingerprints

Co likely has (TW):
touch DNA from moving the body
fingerprints from moving the bike
footprints from the above activity
shell casings
other evidence

What more do they need to convict DN:
???

IMO DN did not kill TW, Abby or Libby.

 

[emptybottles]

Not a clue, but it's a thought. I'd think if a pawn shop did trade (don't know if they do that kind of thing) they'd have contacted LE. If he traded with another transient they might not be aware of the murder?

moo

He would still have to complete a firearm transfer and go through the background check even if he went to a pawn shop and traded it.

If KN purchased it then there would be a record of her purchase with the state.

For those reasons I doubt the weapon was purchased legally.

FWIW the Woodland Park police were notified because DN tried to pawn something in Woodland Park without an ID. DN was trying to pawn something, the pawn shop notified LE and then that's how they found DN.

 

[ocgrad]

I have wondered if all the belongings are going to Indiana along with DN?

They would have to pay impound fees on the car. I'm not sure if they remove all the stuff and let them come pick it up or if it remains in the car. I'm pretty sure her mom didn't send money to get the car because she says she's not talking to her. Maybe she got a job. If the car is still in impound in CO I believe it will stay there. Not sure how long before they sell it at auction.

 

[Shiressleuth]

They would have to pay impound fees on the car. I'm not sure if they remove all the stuff and let them come pick it up or if it remains in the car. I'm pretty sure her mom didn't send money to get the car because she says she's not talking to her. Maybe she got a job. If the car is still in impound in CO I believe it will stay there. Not sure how long before they sell it at auction.

But isn't that stuff potential evidence for Delphi too? He is a POI there after all.

 

[ocgrad]

But isn't that stuff potential evidence for Delphi too? He is a POI there after all.

I would think if they are investigating him for A&L then the whole car needs to be checked for evidence. I would assume they did the same for TW investigation. How that would affect the IN case I don't know. Maybe the FBI already processed it there in CO.

 

[emptybottles]

When you say the ride up is slow, couldn't that frustrate someone in a vehicle on MHR who can't get around a biker who is going so slow?

It's really not that bad a road to pass on. So yes possibly, but TW was an experienced rider and I think he would have waved them by when it was safe and moved over IMO.

Then it seems strange to think that if attacked on the road that TW would ride or run up a very steep trail to get away, unless he had already started on the trail where the altercation continued or escalated.

Yeah, the distance and steepness of the trail kind of make that scenario unrealistic. There's no way a flatlander would have been able to follow TW up that climb and meet him at the top. DN would have had a heart attack The only people faster than a bike going up are trail runners.

Even looking at if he had passed him on Mt Herman rd then it would mean that DN would have to had passed TW, known what trail he was going up, then run 1/2 mile up a 10% grade and waited. I just don't think road rage is part of the equation considering where the body was found.

MTB's are quiet and make it easy to sneak up on animals and people. That's why I lean more to that scenario.

Would there have been anywhere else to go less steep and difficult?

Yes IIRC the trail goes down on the opposite side of the road. That would have been the escape option.

Or is going on up the only option? His body was said to be several feet off the trail. So when you get off the trail is the surrounding terrain less steep leveled out some or even down a bit. It also seems unlikely that DN would carry his body up a very steep trail if he had another alternative but I can imagine he would have been worried of being seen on the road.

I think he was found near the crest or summit of the trail. So maybe a few spots are less steep, but nothing out here is level.

I had not heard both shoes were found. That is new info. Was the first shoe found there at the end of MHR where the trail begins?

I thought they found both. One the day before they found his body and then one the day of. Not sure where but I don't think they were found together.

I saw on a forum that his bike had a flat. Several scenarios are possible there, but if the killer were shooting at him, missed and got his tire that would be a pretty obvious thing and it seems would have been mentioned in those early posts on FB and the biking forum don't you think? Or if it was whacked with a hatchet it didn't look much different than another type of puncture. Or maybe the killer tried to ride it down and without skill hit a rock and punctured the tire himself. If so, the more interaction he had with TW and his bike and shoes and stuff the more chance he should have left prints and DNA.

In general MTB tires are run with very low psi. A heavy rider(190 lbs) with extra gear, gun, etc.... hopping on a bike could have very easily caused a pinch flat just rolling up and over a root or rock. Some people ride with more air though. It's just hard to say why he had a flat without actually seeing the tire and rim.

Like I said before. Those tiny clipless pedals are a PITA to ride on with normal shoes. He/they may have tried to steal the bike but probably flatted and/or crashed once they got going. It would have been very difficult to keep a boot on those pedals. Surely it had fingerprints on it.

The more I think about it the more I feel that poaching was probably a big part of DN's existence. Could have played into both DN and Delphi.

Has anyone else looked at the new mugshot on vinelink? That guy changes his beard weekly.

 

[ocgrad]

He would still have to complete a firearm transfer and go through the background check even if he went to a pawn shop and traded it.

If KN purchased it then there would be a record of her purchase with the state.

For those reasons I doubt the weapon was purchased legally.

FWIW the Woodland Park police were notified because DN tried to pawn something in Woodland Park without an ID. DN was trying to pawn something, the pawn shop notified LE and then that's how they found DN.

I was reading reports on his arrest after the pawn shop visit. I came across a statement from Leazenby that was a little different than I have seen before.
[FONT=&quot]"A combination of relief along with some added stress because obviously once we do take someone into custody, our job in essence from a sheriff office perspective begins because we're charged with taking custody and incarcerating that individual," Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said.[/FONT]
http://www.abc57.com/news/isp-inves...-colorado-for-possible-link-to-delphi-murders

 

[foxbluff]

Thinking about a possible encounter scenarios something just occurred to me, there was MSM mention of finding TW's belongings, but no mention that I can recall of them finding his parked vehicle somewhere. Does anyone recall seeing anything about that? I'm wondering if he would he have driven his vehicle to the trail and unloaded his bike or if he lived close enough that he could've just ridden his bike from home to the trail?

I recall us discussing whether he drove car to a trailhead or left home on the bike. At the time of that discussion, we weren't able to reach a conclusion.

However, I later came to be 90% sure that he left home riding his bike, because I never saw any mention of his car having been found.

Imho, if TW had left by car, the CAR would have been the FIRST item found by LE after recieving report that TW had not returned home from trail riding.

 

[emptybottles]

I was reading reports on his arrest after the pawn shop visit. I came across a statement from Leazenby that was a little different than I have seen before.
[FONT=&amp]"A combination of relief along with some added stress because obviously once we do take someone into custody, our job in essence from a sheriff office perspective begins because we're charged with taking custody and incarcerating that individual," Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said.[/FONT]
http://www.abc57.com/news/isp-inves...-colorado-for-possible-link-to-delphi-murders

That's an odd statement.

FWIW if I were looking for where that gun came from I would be looking at the burglaries in Douglas County from June through September. And I would look at places like Palmer Park, Perry Park, Deckers and Sedalia.
http://www.dcsheriff.net/community/search-neighborhood-crimes/
(I started to, and there is an increase during that time period, just not enough time to find out details for each one. Several assaults also.)

Then I would look at trailhead auto breakins up and down Rampart Range Rd. And that's something not mentioned yet. TW could have stumbled across someone breaking into vehicles at trailheads. One person may have been a lookout sitting up the trail waiting and ready to phone his accomplice who was down at the trailhead, or vice versa in TW's case. Maybe he spooked somebody.

 

[emptybottles]

I recall us discussing whether he drove car to a trailhead or left home on the bike. At the time of that discussion, we weren't able to reach a conclusion.

However, I later came to be 90% sure that he left home riding his bike, because I never saw any mention of his car having been found.

Imho, if TW had left by car, the CAR would have been the FIRST item found by LE after recieving report that TW had not returned home from trail riding.

He left from home at 9 or 10 am.

 

[ocgrad]

That's an odd statement.

FWIW if I were looking for where that gun came from I would be looking at the burglaries in Douglas County from June through September. And I would look at places like Palmer Park, Perry Park, Deckers and Sedalia.
http://www.dcsheriff.net/community/search-neighborhood-crimes/
(I started to, and there is an increase during that time period, just not enough time to find out details for each one. Several assaults also.)

Then I would look at trailhead auto breakins up and down Rampart Range Rd. And that's something not mentioned yet. TW could have stumbled across someone breaking into vehicles at trailheads. One person may have been a lookout sitting up the trail waiting and ready to phone his accomplice who was down at the trailhead, or vice versa in TW's case. Maybe he spooked somebody.

I was surprised to see that the gun they found on him was a .22 long rifle. I had thought it was an AR platform. Just assumed. I think if he had an AR it would not be difficult to find someone to trade for the long rifle.

 

[emptybottles]

I was surprised to see that the gun they found on him was a .22 long rifle. I had thought it was an AR platform. Just assumed. I think if he had an AR it would not be difficult to find someone to trade for the long rifle.

I can't remember where I saw it but somebody said it was a Kel-tec plr22

 

[sumzero]

Unless this is being pursued federally, in which case they bring those charges when he is extradited. National forest. Federal. State lines=federal.

It isn’t as simple as everyone is making it out to me.

IMO

Is there anything in MSM reports to indicate federal agencies have been involved in the TW case? Anything at all?

 

[ocgrad]

I can't remember where I saw it but somebody said it was a Kel-tec plr22

See this reports description.
http://www.abc57.com/news/isp-inves...-colorado-for-possible-link-to-delphi-murders

 

[emptybottles]

See this reports description.
http://www.abc57.com/news/isp-inves...-colorado-for-possible-link-to-delphi-murders

LOL
They contradict themselves in the same article. Pistol or rifle they can't decide....
I have a Savage 64. It's about the least expensive 22 you can buy. A kid size rifle.