CocoaMom's Church Theory

[cocoamom]

Hey Katz, are you starting a list of search areas for the group? If so, please add woods and area by that "other house" (wink, wink)...

PS, loved searching with you today! You are fun!

 

[TakeNote]

wow....this is sooo awesome you guys doing some real foot work! Thanks for sharing

wish with all my heart ....I could join you....if I lived any where near you guys I would be there in a heart beat! Im in Washington state but will be in CA starting sunday for a week......going to Disney...to bad we didnt do Disney W instead can you just hear my hubby....when I tell him Im off sleuthing and he has to take the kids to the park...LOL...

 

[FSU_Girl]

Sounds like you two had a good time. Amazing how such a young child can bring so many people together.

 

[Pink Panther]

Did you mean Fabian Ave ? Right off hwy. 50 ?

Yes. Across the street from the Amscott. If you follow Fabian Avenue south it extends into what looks like a smaller road and coasts along a treed area that runs parallel to a retention pond. Right about smack in the middle there, one could park and not be seen from the major roads nearby.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

But WHICH Church? lol

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&c...es&fb=1&sa=X&oi=local_group&resnum=4&ct=image

Faith Assembly of God on Goldenrod. It's about 1/2 mile from 50 and the Amscot where Casey dumped her car. The church is on the left and it round. There's a large cemetery even with the church going toward Blanchard Park if you're looking at a map or on Google Earth.

 

[FloridaKatz]

Hey Katz, are you starting a list of search areas for the group? If so, please add woods and area by that "other house" (wink, wink)...

PS, loved searching with you today! You are fun!

Loved searching with you to CCM ! C U again on T'giving weekend !

Yes - I'm starting a list of potential search areas that anyone wants us to look at. Please note - we ARE NOT doing these searches on behalf of or in the name of WS, or in conjunction with TES or LE or any other organization. We are doing this as a bunch of local folks (and/or out of towners) who are getting together for friendship, who want to help find this baby. (just had to get that disclaimer out there so we don't get into trouble).

Also if you would like to join us, please PM either CCM or I. We "roll" with a mobile laptop, GPS, cell phones, cameras, ability to do mini videos, maps, flashlights, bug spray, golf clubs, lots of water, snacks, lots of love for Caylee, and the phone numbers of YM, LP and all of the assignment desks for 2, 6, 9, 13 & 54 news.

If you have an area that you are interested in but are not local, please send CCM or I a PM, and we'll add it to the list.

When we look at a place, we try and think about the area as KC would. Does it have easy vehicle access for a Pontiac Sunfire or a Jeep ? How far from where I park the car can I carry or push or roll 30 lbs. of dead weight to the final resting spot ? How likely would it be that someone could easily stumble across this spot ? Is the location in an area that is in the path of "least resistence" ? Meaning in her comfort zone or right off her normal travel path and or her ping path, where she could easily check the location from time to time, to make sure nothing has been found by anyone else ? Could she put Caylee in this spot and then perhaps check on her from time to time, without being seen during the day or night ? If someone did stumble upon it, what's my story where I can blame it on someone else ???

Here's where we've gone so far:
Bella Vita Subdivision
West side of Econ Trail
JBPark (again)
Chapel Hill Cemetary

Interesting Area(s) we've looked at so far :
Amscot
TonE's apts. at Sutton Place

Locations to be searched :
Church on Goldenrod (Hawks Hollow)
Fabian Avenue (south side of 50, across from where Amscot is)
Area off of TM Ranch Rd. and Bunkhouse Rd.
Wooded area off Gregory Rd., Berry Dease Rd.
Wooded area off of the "east parallel" of Eagle Feather & Black Canyon Drives

As we get PMs on areas of interest, I'll post the list on this thread every so often, so you can see where we're going, where we've been, etc.

 

[lastchance]

Way to go, Cocoamom and Floridakatz--if I didn't live in the hinterlands of Ohio(I actually don't know what a hinterland is, but it sounded sort of cool) I would definitely join you. Please be careful--and thank you--we are all taking this so personally, for looking for this precious baby.

 

[MamaBird]

Kudos to you that are searching! I only wish that I could make that long trip to FL to join with you. Caylee has touched so many of us in so many ways. I wish you all the luck and good fortune in finding anything that could bring Caylee the justice that she so greatly deserves! :blowkiss:

 

[IWannaKnow]

When we look at a place, we try and think about the area as KC would. Does it have easy vehicle access for a Pontiac Sunfire or a Jeep ? How far from where I park the car can I carry or push or roll 30 lbs. of dead weight to the final resting spot ? How likely would it be that someone could easily stumble across this spot ? Is the location in an area that is in the path of "least resistence" ? Meaning in her comfort zone or right off her normal travel path and or her ping path, where she could easily check the location from time to time, to make sure nothing has been found by anyone else ? Could she put Caylee in this spot and then perhaps check on her from time to time, without being seen during the day or night ? If someone did stumble upon it, what's my story where I can blame it on someone else ???

Ok, please forgive me if this has already been covered and I missed it (I did a forum search, really, I swear) but this has made a bell go off for me. Are we SURE TL drove a Jeep Cherokee and not a Wrangler? 'Cause I drive a Wrangler, and I can go ANYWHERE I WANT! Terrain is no problemo. This may seem insignificant at first glance, but a Wrangler will fit in many places a Cherokee would not! Plus, they are built for "off-road", not that Cherokee isn't, just very different. If magic-cat (I think it was) is correct in the theory that KC wrapped Caylee in plastic after the 2.6 days and put her in a container, she could have gone anywhere in that Jeep. Would the dog's have alerted with her wrapped that way? I think she would have been able to keep the Jeep clean, so no worries there. HMMMMMM.....................Plus, the Wrangler has........ on the back............wait for it..........GAS CAN HOLDERS!!!!! Two of them!!!!! At least mine does. Will go check for new models.................

 

[IWannaKnow]

My Trixie is a '97, and she has the bumper gas can holders. Just checked with a office mate (sshhhhh, I'm supposed to be working) whose son has a 2007, his does not have gas can holders. Guess they stopped automatically putting them on the newer models, don't know exactly when..............however................you can buy all kinds of things for after market parts for Jeeps............gas can holders galore!

 

[IrishSweetOne]

So, I got no feelings, saw nothing, and was generally dis-enchanted with the whole Bella Vida subdivision. One red dumpster, playground and everywhere, even new construction pretty clean work going on. The "nature preserve" area had high grasses that were all tromped down and if I was to venture a guess, this place has been gone through but good...so we left.

On to Blanchard Park. Drove around, looked at stuff by where LP searched and saw a red rose in the water - guess that Dennis guy missed one! Went to Econ trail access to the "path" parked and walked under the overpass where the official trail goes, over a wooden footbridge, nothing. walked down on the grass beside the foot bridge all the way to the water, looking under the bridges and everywhere - nothing. While we were there a golf cart with a security guard came across the foot bridge and didn't even see us although we were talking, walking and wearing red hat...

Off to the Chapel Hill Cemetery. Huge circle drive. Beautiful. Pond in center. Some people around, backs up to the woods but so open it didn't seem viable at all that she would or could haul something for that walk from where you would stop the car to go to the woods. Kind of a long walk and very open. Woods very, very thick. The children's portion of this cemetery was very sad too. Memorial benches with names and sayings all around but didn't see any with Bella Vida or anything. Warming up by now so we opened the car windows as we drove around. Very quiet except for the tinkle tinkle of windchimes people had hung in the trees. I couldn't decide if it was sad, happy or spooky.

Decided to "be Casey" for a few minutes (we couldn't stand it any longer than that) and drove N. on Goldenrod to University and West a couple blocks to Tony's apt complex. Drove in and around. Seem like really nice apartments chock FULL of young adults. Made a note that it is gated and to be there "cooking dinner" and such with no one else home, she would have had to have a key card or code to get in.

Just like her statement about Sawgrass apts, over 2 speed bumps and just to the right is the building that is apts 209-215 and the building just to the South of that has apts 201-208. There is a breezeway through the center of each building that goes all the way through and contains the metal stairs. Kind of Spanish looking place and lots of trees - nice. Very large pond with fountain on the East side that backs up to an extremely large ditch/ravine thing with water that runs for what looks like miles North and South. No fence. Playground at the apts. 2 story bldgs at the front, 3 story ones in the back.

Still "playing Casey" we left and went back down Goldenrod. It's creepy driving the same road she must have traveled so many times with poor Caylee. Passed the church down to Hwy 50/Colonial and up Dorris. Saw the woods, the path looking area from the maps, my eyes got big - LOTS OF VERY HIGH "STUFF" to get through. We drove past the back fenced entrance to the church. Didn't see anyone. Lots of cars, no people, no kids on playground - back gate open hmmmm??? NO! Pulled up to a house and Katz asked the man if we could park at his house so we could search for Caylee. What a nice guy!! Everyone wants her found...walked back to the woods noting the big semis in back of church and I showed her the sign/entrance to Hawk's Hollow that you can see from the road.

We found where the fence for the church property ended and just stared at the downed trees, huge logs, vines, grasses and that 50 foot (seemed like that) tall grass stuff! As I scrunched my face and lips, Katz dove in! She's done lots of stuff like this before and I was a Girl Scout for about 150 years so we knew to what to watch for. Doesn't mean we were gonna enjoy it though! Wasn't too bad for me (she stomped everything down and I just followed her steps)!!! LOL We couldn't see squat so we just headed towards the kids voices.

Then she stopped to let me go first - OH GREAT! I take one step, try to step over a tree on the ground and wound up in the bow down and pray to Katz position (on my knees, face almost in dirt sunglasses somewhere over there, hat sideways). She laughed - I laughed we kept going (darn, it didn't work, I'm still leading). Nope, more down trees, I stop, we stop, what now around that way back this way up that way shshhhhhhhh, DUCK. Clear as day we see about 3 guys talking facing us through a clearing loading Christmas trees into or out of a truck. I have to pee. Too bad, hold it Cocoa...

Guys start moving around again and I think we need to use the kids noise to help us get there and cover our crunching, cracking, and noisy approach (but we didn't talk hardly at all - just whispered). We look ahead - NO WAY this is happening - we will never get there. I notice she is leading again - how did that happen? :crazy:

We decide we are leaving - can't get in there and we didn't give up easily. We head out through a way that looks easier. I see those down trees covered in whatever that dried fat viney stuff is and wince. Katz plows on so I follow - she tells me to put the sunglasses in my mouth - whew! now I can use TWO hands. I'm right behind her. Crunching along and occasionally squatting to avoid the Christmas tree guys seeing us we make our way over and around 5,000 downed trees and 400 tons of concrete chunks and soffit and crap that is hidden under about 6 inches of dried viney stuff. Step, sink, twist ankle, repeat. Still gotta pee!

I just followed Katz. We were almost out! another really wide down tree - Geez! Need to be a lumberjack! Katz steps left foot on tree and steps on what we think is another 4 inches of dried viney stuff right before another tree trunk. Not 4 inches of viney stuff, it's 4 inches of viney stuff covering a cavern that goes to the center of the EARTH!! I am stuck with foot in between concrete chunks - reach out to catch her, nope can't reach - oh crap!!

She sinks, foot dangling into the abyss (lived here all my life and NEVER have I seen a hole this deep in the middle of the jungle) all I can see is her top half!!! How she made this next move I will NEVER know but remember that left foot of hers on the first tree trunk? Somehow she swung it up to the trunk of the down tree in front of the hole and stood back up on the tree trunk. WHEW! By now I had caught up but am I following her? Don't think so!!!

I ask if she's OK and she says yeah - ( I make note of her bravery) turns and takes another step on that dried viney stuff, down she goes again into the hole from HE** - I guess it's bigger than I thought...., this time I could reach her and helped her up, as she gets up I'm telling her that it's so deep I can't even see the bottom (and that was true, but it was dark). I don't know what happened next but as I was navigating around, over and through this abyss, I looked up and she was GONE!!! Outta there like a lightning bolt!

Whap, whack, ugh everything started hitting me in the face like it had been doing to her the whole time. I just prayed she hadn't fallen into some hole and disappeared with the car keys! I was really hoping I wouldn't have had to call the Christmas Tree Guys over to help me find her. I was glad I had my cell phone and was imagining the call to the hubby.

"Ummm, can you leave the Rocket Ranch, go by the house, get your truck, the pull rope, first aid kit, truck, winch, dogs, helicopter and whatever else you can think of an come save us? We'd call the Websleuths, but the laptop is in the car!"

I bust out into the real world by the street and Katz is alive!!! YEA! We pretty much silently walked back to the car, noticing that Christmas Tree Guys were watching us....if they only knew!

Went to food place, bathroom, eat, post quickly, cupcake store and home - had my camera phone but didn't take pictures - they wouldn't have been pretty - think you got the idea?

OK, next assignment please?

PS Why do the A's have so many rosaries around their house if they attend Baptist Church?

LOL I love you guys...............I wish I could be there to join you . I hated living in Florida (Sanford) but now that we've moved and Caylee missing is wish I still lived there so I could search too .

 

[MsMacGyver]

Don't forget to take into account that KC had scratches on the side of her car near the trunk area. I thought I read somewhere that LE suspected these happened when she backed or drove into a location...You girls are awesome!

 

[FloridaKatz]

I keep going back to the issue of us not being able to get into the hollow yesterday. I would like for us to take a closer look at the property map around the hollow. Do we know for sure that area is on that particular church property ? The only property map that I saw that someone had put up on this thread that has the red outline on it, doesn't make it look like the hollow and the retention pond AND the woods surrounding it is all owned by that one church. Is it possible that we could get the spanish church to let us enter in through the back of their property? The guy we spoke with yesterday who let us park the car at their place was very nice and a giving person, so am thinking maybe we can go to the other church and ask their permission...OR, is there another angle of entry that would not be considered private property?

 

[sea urchin]

cocoamom and floridakatz, you two are awesome! i loved reading about your adventures. if you get asked why you are in a place that you shouldn't be, you can always say that you are geocaching and that you must have put the coordinates in wrong! i know you can cache with a lot of new phones - mine is an old nokia (tracfone) so not sure how. or just take a gps with you. it gives you a great alibi to be in some pretty off the beaten path places!

 

[cocoamom]

FLKatz! Would you please add to the list (if we ever have time), I would love to see the tow yard - accesses, etc.

PS I had another epiphany last night and am working another theory that is flipping me out. Still involves the church but not just Casey - for hints, check her and Amy's texts from June 8 forward, yes, June 8 very carefully.

Don't keep the 16th as death date in your mind either - start thinking outside of that "box" of date of death....all we really know is it happened AFTER the 15th...go from there. Think about how hard she tried to get gas cans the wknd of the 27th. Why if she wanted to have the car stolen? hmmmm

This is gonna take me a couple days. Anyone know why or if they ever got computer searches from brother's house, or pings on all family members - GA, CA and LA? Could REALLY use those!!!

Few questions:

Had her car ever been towed before?
Did any of the A's have ANY associations with anyone who worked at tow yard?
Wasn't Annie part owner in a tow truck company that may have ties to this tow yard?
Where did GA work when he went to get her car?

I think I know:
1. Why LA has backed out of the picture.
2. Why that phone call from jail to home stuck in my mind so much and why it now makes perfect sense.
3. What caused Caylee's death.
4. Where her body (alive and dead) was up until the 1st of July.
5. Who else was involved.
6. That none of her friends were involved and knowing. Couple may have been involved slightly without knowing it.
7. That we will not be able to find Caylee without pings of the A family - and that is why LE didn't have a problem with releasing them to us.

Yes, I still believe she used the church and there may even be a possibility of evidence there but I don't know if I believe Caylee's remains are there - that theory is up in the air for me until I get this other one all sorted out.

OK, that's enough - I'm sure my PM box will be full in an hour! You get it - now get busy and help me figure it out!!

 

[Pink Panther]

I keep going back to the issue of us not being able to get into the hollow yesterday. I would like for us to take a closer look at the property map around the hollow. Do we know for sure that area is on that particular church property ? The only property map that I saw that someone had put up on this thread that has the red outline on it, doesn't make it look like the hollow and the retention pond AND the woods surrounding it is all owned by that one church. Is it possible that we could get the spanish church to let us enter in through the back of their property? The guy we spoke with yesterday who let us park the car at their place was very nice and a giving person, so am thinking maybe we can go to the other church and ask their permission...OR, is there another angle of entry that would not be considered private property?

Katz - Here is the link to the Orange County Property Appraiser's site. Texas L'il gave it to me and it's fabulous; up to date and it shows property lines. Just make sure that you click "aerial view 2008" on the left hand side and then just keep clicking the + sign to zoom in on the area that you would like to see.

http://paarcgis.ocpafl.org/Webmap3/default.aspx

 

[TURBOTHINK]

So, I got no feelings, saw nothing, and was generally dis-enchanted with the whole Bella Vida subdivision. One red dumpster, playground and everywhere, even new construction pretty clean work going on. The "nature preserve" area had high grasses that were all tromped down and if I was to venture a guess, this place has been gone through but good...so we left.

On to Blanchard Park. Drove around, looked at stuff by where LP searched and saw a red rose in the water - guess that Dennis guy missed one! Went to Econ trail access to the "path" parked and walked under the overpass where the official trail goes, over a wooden footbridge, nothing. walked down on the grass beside the foot bridge all the way to the water, looking under the bridges and everywhere - nothing. While we were there a golf cart with a security guard came across the foot bridge and didn't even see us although we were talking, walking and wearing red hat...

Off to the Chapel Hill Cemetery. Huge circle drive. Beautiful. Pond in center. Some people around, backs up to the woods but so open it didn't seem viable at all that she would or could haul something for that walk from where you would stop the car to go to the woods. Kind of a long walk and very open. Woods very, very thick. The children's portion of this cemetery was very sad too. Memorial benches with names and sayings all around but didn't see any with Bella Vida or anything. Warming up by now so we opened the car windows as we drove around. Very quiet except for the tinkle tinkle of windchimes people had hung in the trees. I couldn't decide if it was sad, happy or spooky.

Decided to "be Casey" for a few minutes (we couldn't stand it any longer than that) and drove N. on Goldenrod to University and West a couple blocks to Tony's apt complex. Drove in and around. Seem like really nice apartments chock FULL of young adults. Made a note that it is gated and to be there "cooking dinner" and such with no one else home, she would have had to have a key card or code to get in.

Just like her statement about Sawgrass apts, over 2 speed bumps and just to the right is the building that is apts 209-215 and the building just to the South of that has apts 201-208. There is a breezeway through the center of each building that goes all the way through and contains the metal stairs. Kind of Spanish looking place and lots of trees - nice. Very large pond with fountain on the East side that backs up to an extremely large ditch/ravine thing with water that runs for what looks like miles North and South. No fence. Playground at the apts. 2 story bldgs at the front, 3 story ones in the back.

Still "playing Casey" we left and went back down Goldenrod. It's creepy driving the same road she must have traveled so many times with poor Caylee. Passed the church down to Hwy 50/Colonial and up Dorris. Saw the woods, the path looking area from the maps, my eyes got big - LOTS OF VERY HIGH "STUFF" to get through. We drove past the back fenced entrance to the church. Didn't see anyone. Lots of cars, no people, no kids on playground - back gate open hmmmm??? NO! Pulled up to a house and Katz asked the man if we could park at his house so we could search for Caylee. What a nice guy!! Everyone wants her found...walked back to the woods noting the big semis in back of church and I showed her the sign/entrance to Hawk's Hollow that you can see from the road.

We found where the fence for the church property ended and just stared at the downed trees, huge logs, vines, grasses and that 50 foot (seemed like that) tall grass stuff! As I scrunched my face and lips, Katz dove in! She's done lots of stuff like this before and I was a Girl Scout for about 150 years so we knew to what to watch for. Doesn't mean we were gonna enjoy it though! Wasn't too bad for me (she stomped everything down and I just followed her steps)!!! LOL We couldn't see squat so we just headed towards the kids voices.

Then she stopped to let me go first - OH GREAT! I take one step, try to step over a tree on the ground and wound up in the bow down and pray to Katz position (on my knees, face almost in dirt sunglasses somewhere over there, hat sideways). She laughed - I laughed we kept going (darn, it didn't work, I'm still leading). Nope, more down trees, I stop, we stop, what now around that way back this way up that way shshhhhhhhh, DUCK. Clear as day we see about 3 guys talking facing us through a clearing loading Christmas trees into or out of a truck. I have to pee. Too bad, hold it Cocoa...

Guys start moving around again and I think we need to use the kids noise to help us get there and cover our crunching, cracking, and noisy approach (but we didn't talk hardly at all - just whispered). We look ahead - NO WAY this is happening - we will never get there. I notice she is leading again - how did that happen? :crazy:

We decide we are leaving - can't get in there and we didn't give up easily. We head out through a way that looks easier. I see those down trees covered in whatever that dried fat viney stuff is and wince. Katz plows on so I follow - she tells me to put the sunglasses in my mouth - whew! now I can use TWO hands. I'm right behind her. Crunching along and occasionally squatting to avoid the Christmas tree guys seeing us we make our way over and around 5,000 downed trees and 400 tons of concrete chunks and soffit and crap that is hidden under about 6 inches of dried viney stuff. Step, sink, twist ankle, repeat. Still gotta pee!

I just followed Katz. We were almost out! another really wide down tree - Geez! Need to be a lumberjack! Katz steps left foot on tree and steps on what we think is another 4 inches of dried viney stuff right before another tree trunk. Not 4 inches of viney stuff, it's 4 inches of viney stuff covering a cavern that goes to the center of the EARTH!! I am stuck with foot in between concrete chunks - reach out to catch her, nope can't reach - oh crap!!

She sinks, foot dangling into the abyss (lived here all my life and NEVER have I seen a hole this deep in the middle of the jungle) all I can see is her top half!!! How she made this next move I will NEVER know but remember that left foot of hers on the first tree trunk? Somehow she swung it up to the trunk of the down tree in front of the hole and stood back up on the tree trunk. WHEW! By now I had caught up but am I following her? Don't think so!!!

I ask if she's OK and she says yeah - ( I make note of her bravery) turns and takes another step on that dried viney stuff, down she goes again into the hole from HE** - I guess it's bigger than I thought...., this time I could reach her and helped her up, as she gets up I'm telling her that it's so deep I can't even see the bottom (and that was true, but it was dark). I don't know what happened next but as I was navigating around, over and through this abyss, I looked up and she was GONE!!! Outta there like a lightning bolt!

Whap, whack, ugh everything started hitting me in the face like it had been doing to her the whole time. I just prayed she hadn't fallen into some hole and disappeared with the car keys! I was really hoping I wouldn't have had to call the Christmas Tree Guys over to help me find her. I was glad I had my cell phone and was imagining the call to the hubby.

"Ummm, can you leave the Rocket Ranch, go by the house, get your truck, the pull rope, first aid kit, truck, winch, dogs, helicopter and whatever else you can think of an come save us? We'd call the Websleuths, but the laptop is in the car!"

I bust out into the real world by the street and Katz is alive!!! YEA! We pretty much silently walked back to the car, noticing that Christmas Tree Guys were watching us....if they only knew!

Went to food place, bathroom, eat, post quickly, cupcake store and home - had my camera phone but didn't take pictures - they wouldn't have been pretty - think you got the idea?

OK, next assignment please?

PS Why do the A's have so many rosaries around their house if they attend Baptist Church?

OMG.............you should be a comedy writer. I am sitting here just "chomping at the bit" to be down there with you guys.

 

[IWannaKnow]

BAHHHHHH!!!!! How am I gonna get any work done now? You have completely intrigued me! Off to look at text for June 8. See everyone there!

 

[Pink Panther]

Cocaomom - I believe she did have her car towed to her home shortly after she blew the two tires out in May. I'm not sure of the exact date but it should be on our calendar in the stickies. LE did go on and on about that event (the two tires) and asked everyone involved about it.

ETA - I just checked. According to Troy's interview, the two flat tires occured on May 14th.

 

[GRANNYL]

Cool ! We'd love to have you join us. And GrannyL too ! The more we have, the more ground we can cover. How's the Saturday of Thanksgiving weekend looking for you ?

For sure if I can figure out a way to leave my Thanksgiving company!! Not sure if they will go home Saturday or Sunday. Could just let my husband entertain them since they are his family! LOL!! Sunday should be no problem but will see what I can work out for Saturday. Will you search just one day or both? What time would you start searching? Will take me 2 1/2 to 3 hours to get there. I want so much to find something to solidify this case.

Loved reading about you two and your great adventure, made me laugh. Sounds like you had so much fun while doing a wonderful job of searching.:clap: