Convictions of Murder Without A Body

[SeriouslySearching]

Thought this thread was worth bumping up again.

 

[TrailDog]

While the conviction of Murder is possible without a body, I feel it's improbable under the current court system (the 9th circuit court, here in Orl). The state must prove "corpus delecti" in murder cases. This means "body of the crime". In a Murder case the state has to establish 3 things to prove corpus delecti. These three things are as follows:
1. the fact of death (this is easily done by forensics)
2. the identity of the victim (again, can be done by forensics)
3. the "criminal agency" of another (meaning a felonious act)

Now, the first two are fairly easy for the state to prove. The third, however, is a lot more challenging. Obviously there is a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to suspicious activity by KC. This does not however, rise to any criminal act committed by her pointing to the death of her child. There is obviously evidence that only the investigators know about though so I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, I think she most definitely did it and is guilty, I just would be surprised if the state charged her without a body. I can not think of a single case in the 9th circuit where the state has upheld and tried a murder charge without one... which sucks.

 

[passin_through]

I didn't see this one listed, it's a good one someone else at WS had listed before.
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/t/tucker_logan.html
It's pretty sad but interesting if you read the story.

edit to add, just noticed this case got a thread all it's own. sorry 'bout that

 

[77NancyDrew]

HMMM...I saw it on Fox, so I will look for a link for a transcript...may take awhile!

I think it was lawyer thAt is usually on Gerldo that said that.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

We don't know everything that LE and the FBI have at this point. I think they could proceed, but would prefer not to without Caylee's body. If they can connect CA to the DNA and Decomp in the trunk...they have a case. The only way she could have gotten it on her or her things is to have come into direct contact...proving she did move the body. In order for her to move the body, she would have had to know the body existed prior. I think they can build this case backwards with forensics and with witness statements (lies and truth alike).

 

[dalli'smom]

there was a very well known case here in georgia with shannon melendi!!her body wasn't found until after he was convicted and finally confessed!!here is a link with info. about it:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/Story?id=2201120&page=1

 

[faefrost]

Most cases wothout a body have the hurdle of proving that the subject is dead beyong a reasonable doubt. By all indications this does not apply here.

This will not be a case without a body. LE already has enough physical evidence to prove that a death occured. The hair samples showing the death ring, and matched back to Caylee, along with the evidence of decomposition and DNA in the trunk. That is more then enough to be considered a "body".

What they need the full body for is to have any proof of mechanism of death, and thereby motive. casey will be facing a homicide charge with a confirmed and provable death. The only question is how steep of a murder charge can the prosecutors bring.

 

[c'monalready]

Thomas Campano is serving life (his dp was overturned on appeal) for the murder of Anne Marie Fahey. Her body was never found. And he is much smarter than this twit sitting in the Orange County Jail and his attorneys were much better than this Jose Whateverhisnameis.

I have no doubt that Casey Anthony would be convicted w/o a body. I do believe LE has more than they are saying (I always believe that). I am starting to think this theory of an accidental death is just their way of lulling Casey into a false sense of security so she will admit to what happened *because there is no way that woman is innocent* of killing her child. No way.

I thought the same thing, that LE was just putting that out there (accident) to see if she'd bite.

 

[capoly]

KYNANDE KALEHJE BENNETT

Vartasha McCollough-White, 30, is serving a 20-year sentence after she was convicted in 2006 of homicide by child abuse in the death of her child, whose body has not been found.

 

[Nore]

I'd think the stains and the hair? IIRC that were found in the car/trunk are evidence. And you have the cadaver dog hits...

--------------
Me too Linask,they should have no problem identifying hair,DNA, as coming from Caylee if it did.Her DNA would be all over her room no matter how hard they would try to hide it.My Dr. said they certainly can tell if DNA,hair etc.is from a dead body or a live one.I sometimes wonder if LE.is trying to give Casey enough rope to slip up,become too sure of herself.I do believe she misses her boyfriends and will become "hairy" because of it.LOL..An old saying ~ "give em' enough rope and they will hang themselves".Anyone know if their house has a basement or just crawl space? I wonder.I forget did they take the cadaver dogs inside or just in the yard? Oh so many questions we have,wish we could have a go at her! IMO

 

[princess]

Rilya Wilson

I can not find the conclusion to the case..one of you more savy people here might be able to.


This is a woman who they charged with kidnapping without any evidence that she took the child anywhere and now they've charged her with the murder of a child they have not located," Tannebaum said.
http://www.wesh.com/news/4292896/detail.html


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-08-293444213_x.htm


http://www.wesh.com/news/3790195/detail.html

 

[MiraclesHappen]

Could is the key word - we'd have to know what the minimum sentence is, and then there's also the possibility of a plea to a lesser charge that might simply result in probation.

ETA: Often the sentences for various charges run concurrently too, for instance if she got 3 years for charge A and three years for charge B, she would still only serve 3 years, or less with good behavior.

As far as the 6 years, I'm pretty sure that was before the additional charges involving the uttering, larceny, and that set of circumstances.

Keep in mind, she has yet to be charged for bilking the stroke victim grandparent.

I can't imagine why the prosecution would plea bargain those cases down, at this juncture.

I vote for time on and after. Who on Appellate earth would reverse a judge for not giving Casey concurrent sentences if that situation arose?

 

[JulieAnne]

I think they will get a murder charge without the body. Like someone said, the odds of a random person just happening to have carried a dead body around in their trunk are REALLY small. Then tie in the odds of an (innocent) mother waiting a month to report her missing child missing. O.k., you have got to be at some odds so obscure that they don't register on the scale.

Now factor in the mathematical odds of an innocent mother unknowingly carrying around a dead body in her trunk during the same period of time that she just happens not to have notified law enforcement FOR A MONTH that her child is missing and then this innocent mother opts to lie about everything and the KITCHEN SINK. Then this innocent woman is found to have lied, cheated and stolen from family and friends INCLUDING a very elderly grandparent,

O.k., now what would the odds be ...

Finding someone guilty is just getting beyond "reasonable doubt". She may not have had her day in court yet - but her only hope is that Caylee comes sauntering in that court room with a big ole happy smile - cuz she passed "reasonable doubt" up the day the labs came back

 

[suspicious mind]

forensics don't lie. Casey is goin down. O happy day!

 

[dewshoney]

There is a case in Blanchester, OH where a first degree murder conviction was obtained against Vincent Doan for the murder of his girlfriend Carrie Culberson. There was no body that was ever found. No murder weapon, no cause of death...but the prosecutors were able to prove the case based on all of the circumstantial evidence in the case despite the fact that several witnesses came forward claiming to have seen Carrie driving her car weeks after her disappearance. In my opinion, even though his guilt was pretty obvious, the prosecutor was able to pull off a conviction with even less evidence in the Vincent Doan case than the police in Orlando have against Casey already...I think they could safely proceed at this point without fear of acquittal OR overturn on appeal. Lock her up and throw away the key....:behindbar...Or just give me a half an hour alone in a room with her...:crazy:

 

[thelmadawg]

I'm wondering if some of our legal eagles can provide input on what LE strategy might be?

We know they probably have more information that's not released.

But, do they have enough to build a case without poor Caylee?

Would they prosecute KC on exisiting charges, and wait for additional info to materialize?

And what information (by deduction) do we think they might have we don't know about?

 

[jbar]

I am not a lawyer, a paralegal nor do I have any sort of legal background.

However, I am a reader

I read on the WESH site, I believe, a direct quote from LE that said that we will NOT see any homicide charges until they can prove probable cause.

I believe they have enough evidence to prove Caylee is dead, and that there was human decomp in the back of Casey's car. They might even have the evidence that proves it was CAYLEE'S decomp in the back of Casey's car - however... and this is a BIG HOWEVER, they do not, right now, have probable cause to put Casey (or anyone else right now) in posession of that car at the same time of the decomp, nor do they have any evidence to prove that Casey (or anyone else right now) has had anything to do with Caylee's death.

I do believe that there was someone else involved, and that person and Caylee's body hold the key to potential and future charges.

Until then, and this is just my speculation, this case very much runs the risk of going cold... and she will just have to be tried on current charges.

ETA : They will not have any problem convicting on current charges and yes, she will serve some sort of time. JMO

 

[crimesolver4U]

Even if they found Caylees body it would be difficult to determine cause of death. There are probably skeletal remains. It is also difficult to show homocide in the case of child deaths because most are not killed by gunshot wound or stabbing where it is easier to demonstrate.
They have enough to show that Caylee is dead. The problem they have is that they probably believe that it was intentional first degree murder, but they are concerned that there is no way to demonstrate that, and that a judge may give a jury instruction in a murder case to convict her of manslaughter if they cant degree. That would be intentional negligent manslaughter which is a lesser charge. They will bring a murder case and try to prove circumstantial evidence shows it was intentional, ie. no remorse after, not wanting to have a child, ect, but there is always a chance it will be manslaughter. I imagine they are adding all these other charges so that if she gets only manslaughter she will be in jail a long time.
They are hoping for a body for the small chance it might indicate what happened to her

 

[magnolia]

I am not a lawyer, a paralegal nor do I have any sort of legal background.

*Snipped*

I believe they have enough evidence to prove Caylee is dead, and that there was human decomp in the back of Casey's car. They might even have the evidence that proves it was CAYLEE'S decomp in the back of Casey's car - however... and this is a BIG HOWEVER, they do not, right now, have probable cause to put Casey (or anyone else right now) in posession of that car at the same time of the decomp, nor do they have any evidence to prove that Casey (or anyone else right now) has had anything to do with Caylee's death.

I do believe that there was someone else involved, and that person and Caylee's body hold the key to potential and future charges.

Until then, and this is just my speculation, this case very much runs the risk of going cold... and she will just have to be tried on current charges.

*Snipped*

I'n not an Attorney either, but, I think you're right on about this.

However, don't know if I believe that someone else was involved in the death of Caylee. I lean more towards thoughts that someone helped her with the cover-up.

I also think some of her friends have more info. that would be of interest to LE.

If Casey confided in anyone about what actually happened, I strongly believe it would be her brother, Lee.

Lee knows what happened. IMO!!

 

[jbar]

However, don't know if I believe that someone else was involved in the death of Caylee. I lean more towards thoughts that someone helped her with the cover-up.

Yes, I was vague about my implication that someone else was involved. I don't know if I believe that anyone else was involved with the death, but I do believe there was someone else involved with either moving the body, covering things up, and/or some other action, after the fact.