Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #49

[otto]

I understand young people can't just stay inside and need outlets.

For those protestors mentioning their liberty being trampled, they need to remember that with personal liberty comes personal responsibility.

Was it Immanuel Kant who discussed respect the autonomy of others? Simply put, that means everyone can do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of others. Autonomy without respect is to "pursue a course of action in one's life, often regardless of any particular moral content."

Autonomy | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

People can protest as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, but I draw the line at sanctioned protests at the funeral of a LGTBQ stranger because he is LGTBQ. Similarly, with the virus, people who gather in groups of more than 5 are increasing the probability for transmission of the virus. The Ro (R-not) for this virus is 2-3 people, at a minimum. That means for every infected person, 2-3 others will be infected after minimal contact. Of those, based on China stats, 20% of all ages will be hospitalized.

Self-isolation reduces the probability of transmission, easing the strain on hospitals and health systems. I suppose, eventually, everyone will be exposed and the plan is to ensure that necessary health services are available as it ripples through global societies. Everyone, even asymptomatic people, have a responsibility to reduce and stop the transmission of the virus.

It is important to respect the autonomy of others, especially in the time of plague.

 

[margarita25]

I find it interesting that SARS seems to have emerged around the same time of year as CV. The timelines are so similar, if not virtually identical.

“The earliest case of SARS is thought to have occurred in Foshan, a city southwest of Guangzhou in Guangdong province, in mid-November 2002. It was later also found in Heyuan and Zhongshan in Guangdong. This “strange disease” alerted Chinese health personnel as early as mid-December. On January 2, a team of health experts was sent to Heyuan and diagnosed the disease as an infection caused by a certain virus (Hai and Hua, 2003). A Chinese physician, who was in charge of treating a patient from Heyuan in a hospital in Guangzhou, quickly reported the disease to a local anti-epidemic station (Renmin ribao, 2003a). “

THE SARS EPIDEMIC AND ITS AFTERMATH IN CHINA: A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE - Learning from SARS - NCBI Bookshelf

—-

ETA:

WHO | Update 95 - SARS: Chronology of a serial killer

“16 November 2002
– First known case of atypical pneumonia occurs in Foshan City, Guangdong Province, China, but is not identified until much later.”

Interesting. First known case of CV is Nov 17.

 

[otto]

I’m sorry to hear a generality like this, unless she herself eats these things. China is a diverse country with diverse food and customs, as you know. She may be a germaphobe as discussed earlier, causing the drama. I have a friend who would freak out about a fly because of germs. Some people are like that, regardless of their country of origin or what some residents of that country eat.
JMO

I know that China is a diverse country where the wealthy put endangered animals like the pangolin on the menu, have access to the best schools, and generally live and work in a caste system where workers, housed near work, receive daily messaging to improve production and harmony.

She might be a germaphobe, something that is today a bit of a paradigm. It's like the olden days when someone walking alone talking to themselves was undoubtedly schizophrenic. Then everyone had a cell phone and they were all walking around talking to themselves.

 

[otto]

I find it interesting that SARS seems to have emerged around the same time of year as CV. The timelines are so similar, if not virtually identical.

“The earliest case of SARS is thought to have occurred in Foshan, a city southwest of Guangzhou in Guangdong province, in mid-November 2002. It was later also found in Heyuan and Zhongshan in Guangdong. This “strange disease” alerted Chinese health personnel as early as mid-December. On January 2, a team of health experts was sent to Heyuan and diagnosed the disease as an infection caused by a certain virus (Hai and Hua, 2003). A Chinese physician, who was in charge of treating a patient from Heyuan in a hospital in Guangzhou, quickly reported the disease to a local anti-epidemic station (Renmin ribao, 2003a). “

THE SARS EPIDEMIC AND ITS AFTERMATH IN CHINA: A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE - Learning from SARS - NCBI Bookshelf

Anti-epidemic Station? How many people have one of those in their city, state, province, or county?

 

[Anirtak]

I understand young people can't just stay inside and need outlets.

For those protestors mentioning their liberty being trampled, they need to remember that with personal liberty comes personal responsibility.

This is what they're forgetting. I'm going to borrow this, thank you.

 

[otto]

France has the worst epidemic in the EU after the original outbreak. Macron was in Italy in March and downplayed the virus. He also downplayed the virus in France, oblivious that cause and effect in another place is not a movie.

Italy was the first EU hotspot. Spain followed. Next is France - completely overwhelmed health system.

The USA is the hotspot in the Americas, a country that wants to open borders with countries with a much lower infection rate first.



Coronavirus Update (Live): 2,333,240 Cases and 160,818 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

 

[otto]

This is what they're forgetting. I'm going to borrow this, thank you.

Every teenager learns that with freedom comes responsibility. Personal liberty demands respecting the autonomy of others. Those who are autonomy driven will be morally depraved, IMHO.

 

[margarita25]

Interesting article:

THE SARS EPIDEMIC: THE PATH; From China's Provinces, a Crafty Germ Breaks Out
Apr 27, 2003

 

[Lilibet]

A very interesting article about the Great Manchurian Plague of 1911. Over 60,000 died in China, but it didn’t spread worldwide.

From the link:

When the disease was eventually brought under control, the Chinese government convened the International Plague Conference in the northern city of Shenyang -- close to the epicenter of the outbreak. In attendance were virologists, bacteriologists, epidemiologists and disease experts from many of the world's major powers -- the United States, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and France.

The purpose of the conference was to find the cause of the outbreak, learn which suppression techniques were most effective, discover why the disease had spread so far so fast, and assess what could be done to prevent a second wave. While the conference was not without some finger pointing, it was mostly a genuine attempt to learn.

As the world now faces a pandemic characterized by a lack of a globally co-ordinated response and multilateral effort on the part of political leaders, the collaborative aspects of the 1911 conference in north-eastern China are worth reconsidering.

Today, the World Health Organization (WHO) appears compromised, the virus has been racialized, major nations are angry with each other and competing for resources and control of the narrative, while poorer countries are left to fend largely for themselves.

Compared to 1911, we appear a polarized and divided world.

Much more of interest at the link:
WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTO
In 1911, another epidemic swept through China. That time, the world came together - CNN

 

[Trino]

Protestors demand an IMMEDIATE opening to all businesses.
Linking to Minnesota stay at home (requested from #48):
I live in MN so I know the restrictions. Link at bottom.

No dine in. Carry-out only. Most restaurants (IHOP, Denny's have signs to carry-out).
Essential businesses open (grocery stores, liquor stores, pharmacy)
Health clubs closed.
Schools closed, guessing through the year, but this has not been stated yet by the governor. Closed through May 18.
State parks facilities closed. Trails open.
Trails open all over. Many local playgrounds closed.
Interesting that we were in Texas for the winter. Texas has closed all state parks AND all state park trails.
Golf courses, fishing open.
Note that Best Buy headquarters are located in MN. 51,000 furloughed, BUT this is nationwide.
The Mall of America was not closed by the governor nor were local shopping centers. This was their decision. Kohl's closed stores - on their own. Target and Walmart are open. DQ is open (cannot sit inside). Dick's Sporting Goods closed on their own.

Permissible activities during the stay at home order include:

• Health and safety activities, such as obtaining emergency services or medical supplies
• Outdoor activities, such as walking pets, hiking, running, biking, hunting, or fishing
• Necessary Supplies and Services, such as getting groceries, gasoline, or carry-out
• Essential and interstate travel, such as returning to home from outside this state. To protect our neighbors, Minnesotans are encouraged to stay close to home and are strongly discouraged from engaging in unnecessary travel.
• Care of others, such as caring for a family member, friend, or pet in another household
• Displacement, such as moving between emergency or homeless shelters if you are without a home
• Relocation to ensure safety, such as relocating to a different location if your home has been unsafe due to domestic violence, sanitation, or essential operations reasons
• Tribal Activities & Lands, such as activities by members within the boundaries of their tribal reservations
• Moving or Relocation, such as moving to a new home or place of residence
• Voting, we encourage Minnesotans to vote and to do so by mail when possible
• Funerals, provided that the gathering consists of no more than 10 attendees and the space utilized allows for social distancing (six feet spacing between people). Venues should make accommodations for remote attendance, if possible, for others. Individuals who are at high risk from COVID-19 are strongly encouraged to attend remotely."

In effect until May 13.
#StayHomeMN FAQ / Office of Governor Tim Walz and Lt. Governor Peggy Flanagan

 

[otto]

Interesting parallel timelines between SARS and SARS-Covid19. Was the virus dormant this entire time, waiting to emerge as a stronger organism?

 

[Niner]

All is well here!

Hi Niner! We'll be sure to post a link for you.....or you can set your alarm clock to get up and watch, like many of us did during the Oscar Pistorius trials. Stay safe and HUGS!

Hey Chelly! I'm doing good over here! And I did find a link to the concert, so NO alarm clock needed - plus I don't think I have one! I'm retired - so really do not need one now! Will be listening to it - I see it is 8 hours!! That should fill up my day! LOL!

I seem to remember my parents saying that sugar was a rare treat in Europe during WW2.

I know they had shortages like everywhere
maybe this particular group sacrificed their sugar or had access to a bigger amount

I know that after WW2 in Latvia they would hide their sugar... During Stalin times it was hard to get anything! Everyone dealt in the "black market". You got to know someone, who knew someone... etc. etc.


Thought I'd add this - as I have not been able to get a "positive" answer on my check. And for you that have received it - I noticed this:

For security reasons, the IRS plans to mail a letter about the economic impact payment to the taxpayer’s last known address within 15 days after the payment is paid. The letter will provide information on how the payment was made and how to report any failure to receive the payment. If a taxpayer is unsure they’re receiving a legitimate letter, the IRS urges taxpayers to visit IRS.gov first to protect against scam artists.

and this for me - I did receive a 2019 Form SSA-1099 - and all info is correct, so I guess I wait...

Social Security and Railroad Retirement recipients who are not typically required to file a tax return need to take no action. The IRS will use the information on the Form SSA-1099 and Form RRB-1099 to generate Economic Impact Payments of $1,200 to these individuals even if they did not file tax returns in 2018 or 2019. Recipients will receive these payments as a direct deposit or by paper check, just as they would normally receive their benefits. Social Security Disability Insurance (SSDI) recipients are also part of this group who don't need to take action.


link: Get My Payment Frequently Asked Questions | Internal Revenue Service


@margarita25

 

[margarita25]

“Currently, no areas of the world are reporting transmission of SARS. Since the end of the global epidemic in July 2003, SARS has reappeared four times – three times from laboratory accidents (Singapore and Chinese Taipei), and once in southern China where the source of infection remains undetermined although there is circumstantial evidence of animal-to-human transmission.”

WHO | SARS (Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome)

—-

SARS escaped Beijing lab twice
Apr 25, 2004

—-

Mounting Lab Accidents Raise SARS Fears
30 Apr 2004

—-

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00815-6/fulltext
Nov 2003

 

[Lilibet]

Protestors demand an IMMEDIATE opening to all businesses.
Linking to Minnesota stay at home (requested from #48):
I live in MN so I know the restrictions. Link at bottom.

No dine in. Carry-out only. Most restaurants (IHOP, Denny's have signs to carry-out).
Essential businesses open (grocery stores, liquor stores, pharmacy)
Health clubs closed.
Schools closed, guessing through the year, but this has not been stated yet by the governor. Closed through May 18.
State parks facilities closed. Trails open.
Trails open all over. Many local playgrounds closed.
Interesting that we were in Texas for the winter. Texas has closed all state parks AND all state park trails.
Golf courses, fishing open.
Note that Best Buy headquarters are located in MN. 51,000 furloughed, BUT this is nationwide.
The Mall of America was not closed by the governor nor were local shopping centers. This was their decision. Kohl's closed stores - on their own. Target and Walmart are open. DQ is open (cannot sit inside). Dick's Sporting Goods closed on their own.

Permissible activities during the stay at home order include:

• Health and safety activities, such as obtaining emergency services or medical supplies
• Outdoor activities, such as walking pets, hiking, running, biking, hunting, or fishing
• Necessary Supplies and Services, such as getting groceries, gasoline, or carry-out
• Essential and interstate travel, such as returning to home from outside this state. To protect our neighbors, Minnesotans are encouraged to stay close to home and are strongly discouraged from engaging in unnecessary travel.
• Care of others, such as caring for a family member, friend, or pet in another household
• Displacement, such as moving between emergency or homeless shelters if you are without a home
• Relocation to ensure safety, such as relocating to a different location if your home has been unsafe due to domestic violence, sanitation, or essential operations reasons
• Tribal Activities & Lands, such as activities by members within the boundaries of their tribal reservations
• Moving or Relocation, such as moving to a new home or place of residence
• Voting, we encourage Minnesotans to vote and to do so by mail when possible
• Funerals, provided that the gathering consists of no more than 10 attendees and the space utilized allows for social distancing (six feet spacing between people). Venues should make accommodations for remote attendance, if possible, for others. Individuals who are at high risk from COVID-19 are strongly encouraged to attend remotely."

In effect until May 13.
#StayHomeMN FAQ / Office of Governor Tim Walz and Lt. Governor Peggy Flanagan

Protests have started in Oregon.

Protesters want Governor Brown to lift the stay-at-home order

 

[katydid23]

I understand young people can't just stay inside and need outlets.

For those protestors mentioning their liberty being trampled, they need to remember that with personal liberty comes personal responsibility.

I think some people are getting the wrong idea about what some of the protestors are trying to say.

I don't know anyone who is saying 'let's not have social distancing, let's not take precautions.'
For example:
Thousands protest Michigan governor's social distance order

“The majority of demonstrators remained in their vehicles, and most of those who were on foot were practicing social distancing,” Banner said.

Four sheriffs in the northwestern Lower Peninsula called Whitmer’s orders a “vague framework of emergency laws” that are frustrating citizens. Leelanau County Sheriff Mike Borkovich said people don’t understand why they can’t take a child fishing in a motorboat but they can use a kayak.

“We’re trying to keep the peace with people. ... The economy is coming apart in northern Michigan. People are upset,” Borkovich told The Associated Press. “People are frantic to get back to work. They have been very edgy.”



The anger seemed to be about the way the governor made up her kind of haphazard regulations.

For example, the governor forbids citizens to purchase vegetable seeds or vegetable plants. Those things are there, in open stores, but are not able to be purchased because the governor says so.

But this is the proper time to plant garden seeds, right now. And because of the pandemic, many people feel they should start having an alternate food source in the immediate future. And they have plenty of time to prepare a garden right now.

So they ARE allowed to go into the hardware store or the box store to purchase some items, but they have to look at the tomato plants and seeds, and walk past, for some arbitrary decision by one woman. And she has not been able to say specifically WHY no one is allowed to buy veggie seeds now.

I cannot see the harm in allowing people to do that. The store is open, the cashiers are there, the citizens are there buying other items, so why not allow them to start gardens now?

The same thing with people being arrested or ticketed for being in their own cars, in a church parking lot, watching a livestream of a church service on a huge screen. WHY can't they sit in their cars and watch the service?

People are feeling that many of the rules are arbitrary and needlessly oppressive.

A father ticketed for playing catch in his front yard with his 2 kids? Is that necessary?

The protestors are not saying they don't want to flatten the curve. But they want some consideration in how this will be done. Why can a boater be allowed to take their kayak out on the lake but not allowed to take their kids out in a small fishing boat, to try and catch food?

Why can they buy liquor but not tomato seeds?

I think these are valid questions.

We want our economy to keep running, so why can't people purchase gardening supplies, or paint or tools to work on their property while they are locked down for 8 weeks? Seems it would greatly benefit the community in a few ways.

And if the customers wear masks and gloves they will not be putting others at any more risk than they do when purchasing food or medicines. JMO

 

[otto]

A very interesting article about the Great Manchurian Plague of 1911. Over 60,000 died in China, but it didn’t spread worldwide.

From the link:

While the conference was not without some finger pointing, it was mostly a genuine attempt to learn.

As the world now faces a pandemic characterized by a lack of a globally co-ordinated response and multilateral effort on the part of political leaders, the collaborative aspects of the 1911 conference in north-eastern China are worth reconsidering.

Today, the World Health Organization (WHO) appears compromised, the virus has been radicalized, major nations are angry with each other and competing for resources and control of the narrative, while poorer countries are left to fend largely for themselves.

Compared to 1911, we appear a polarized and divided world.

Much more of interest at the link:
WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTO
In 1911, another epidemic swept through China. That time, the world came together - CNN

BBM

Today, a task force isn't needed to coordinate research collaboration. In 1911 that was a good idea. Global collaborative research is facilitated using social media. Many vaccines are in the works, many will fail, there are many to work through/test/evaluate.

Competing for resources seems to have originated with states in the USA competing against each other for medical supplies. There was no federal oversight. Next, those same parties were competing on a global market, seizing orders intended for Germany and Canada (in the news two weeks ago).

I think that regardless of competitiveness and narrative control goals, the vast majority genuinely attempt to learn, share resources, get it done - find a vaccine.

 

[katydid23]

Michigan cracks down on seed purchases and tiny gatherings

One peculiar part of the order is the ban on sale of seeds and plants, which is drawing fire from greenhouse and nursery owners. Retail garden centers have been ordered to close for the duration of the lockdown.

It is not known how many citizens make use of their land to grow their own sustenance gardens. However, Callie Gafner, who works at a small garden center, asserted that banning fruit and vegetable plants would not help limit the spread of COVID-19.

“If you’re growing them yourself, you're reducing the contact between people because you're not going anywhere. You're going out in your own garden and picking them up rather than going into the store and coming into contact with how many people?” Gafner explained.

“ Just want us to be able to do curbside pickup and help our local customers to be able to do their own gardening and put the money back in the local economy,” Gafner said. Gafner made the argument that gardening is a way to relieve stress and feel more productive in a time where no one is allowed to go anywhere.



Farmers markets may also be barred from selling seedlings for fruits and vegetables, reducing the amount of income they can derive from any given market day.

“Currently there is a ban on all plant sales at the market. So, that is a big portion of our May market and so we might have to limit particular vendors at that time,” said Rori Jean Trench, Executive Director of the Fulton Street Market in Grand Rapids in an appearance on Michigan Radio’s Stateside program with April Baer.

In a press release, the Michigan Farm Bureau indicated that its president, Carl Bednarski, sent a formal request to Governor Whitmer to “ask for a reconsideration of retail garden centers to be included as essential infrastructure workers.”

Michigan’s Republican Speaker of the House Lee Chatfield blasted Whitmer for making the “wrong call” and “bad for Michigan families.”

 

[otto]

Imagine that there was a cure for the common cold. Life would be different in a world where no one comes to work with the sniffles they picked up from their child who was at daycare with children that had recently travelled.

My brother worked from home after a 2 year old child whose parents worked in his building returned from Florida a few days earlier. Their child, in the building daycare, tested positive for the virus. Immediately everyone in the building was free to work from home and they haven't been back.

What if a vaccine fixes that forever, or what if it creates a two tiered society : those who have and have not been sick. Those who have been sick sometimes have lingering health issues. Those who have not been sick are not compromised in the same way.

 

[PingTheRouter]

the governor forbids citizens to purchase vegetable seeds or vegetable plants. Those things are there, in open stores, but are not able to be purchased because the governor says so.

wow never heard of something so silly

 

[Trino]

I think some people are getting the wrong idea about what some of the protestors are trying to say.

I don't know anyone who is saying 'let's not have social distancing, let's not take precautions.'
For example:
Thousands protest Michigan governor's social distance order

“The majority of demonstrators remained in their vehicles, and most of those who were on foot were practicing social distancing,” Banner said.

Four sheriffs in the northwestern Lower Peninsula called Whitmer’s orders a “vague framework of emergency laws” that are frustrating citizens. Leelanau County Sheriff Mike Borkovich said people don’t understand why they can’t take a child fishing in a motorboat but they can use a kayak.

“We’re trying to keep the peace with people. ... The economy is coming apart in northern Michigan. People are upset,” Borkovich told The Associated Press. “People are frantic to get back to work. They have been very edgy.”



The anger seemed to be about the way the governor made up her kind of haphazard regulations.

For example, the governor forbids citizens to purchase vegetable seeds or vegetable plants. Those things are there, in open stores, but are not able to be purchased because the governor says so.

But this is the proper time to plant garden seeds, right now. And because of the pandemic, many people feel they should start having an alternate food source in the immediate future. And they have plenty of time to prepare a garden right now.

So they ARE allowed to go into the hardware store or the box store to purchase some items, but they have to look at the tomato plants and seeds, and walk past, for some arbitrary decision by one woman. And she has not been able to say specifically WHY no one is allowed to buy veggie seeds now.

I cannot see the harm in allowing people to do that. The store is open, the cashiers are there, the citizens are there buying other items, so why not allow them to start gardens now?

The same thing with people being arrested or ticketed for being in their own cars, in a church parking lot, watching a livestream of a church service on a huge screen. WHY can't they sit in their cars and watch the service?

People are feeling that many of the rules are arbitrary and needlessly oppressive.

A father ticketed for playing catch in his front yard with his 2 kids? Is that necessary?

The protestors are not saying they don't want to flatten the curve. But they want some consideration in how this will be done. Why can a boater be allowed to take their kayak out on the lake but not allowed to take their kids out in a small fishing boat, to try and catch food?

Why can they buy liquor but not tomato seeds?

I think these are valid questions.

We want our economy to keep running, so why can't people purchase gardening supplies, or paint or tools to work on their property while they are locked down for 8 weeks? Seems it would greatly benefit the community in a few ways.

And if the customers wear masks and gloves they will not be putting others at any more risk than they do when purchasing food or medicines. JMO

Minnesota is not Michigan. Nothing like this is happening here. Our garden centers are open. We have had teens ticketed for playing basketball but mostly for parties. Nothing like you mentioned. Check the post above re: Minnesota. One of the leaders of MN protests is Jason Lewis. He is a defunct congressman, lost his seat last election.