Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #63

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I'll probably be pelted with rotten fruit, but I have 2 thoughts on virus thingee:

My first thought is, we are now seeing a spike because of the protests, peaceful and/or otherwise. Disagree if you will, deny if you will, but this is how "I" see it. I further believe there will be other spikes due to other congregations, rallies if you will, beachgoers possibly, people just deciding to live their lives.

My second thought is to let people live their lives as they see fit. Open everything up. By now everyone has been told ad nauseum the risks of this virus. Those who want to wear masks and distance, go for it. Those who want to hiberinate, by all means do so. Even so, open up and let the chips fall where they may. We need to get over this thing quickly to keep the world economy afloat, and that impacts each and every one of us.

We heard at first that hospitals would be overwhelmed. I didn't see so much of that. Didn't Cuomo send back the hospital ship? Then there was a shortage of ventilators. Didn't we also hear that they did more harm than good at times? Then there were the nursing homes - well, enough old folks died. . .'nuff said about that.

I may sound cruel, stupid, naiive, but to me the horse is already out of the barn. Let's ride this thing through to the end and be done with it.

One thing though, I wish everyone to make their peace with God.

Pelt away.

MY OPINION ONLY

I live in an area of California that had few to no protests. Our rates are climbing exponentially.

You can look at someplace like Madera County as an example - exponential, no protests. But they never closed down. Why? In their case, it's because Yosemite reopened. In San Luis Obispo (never closed) it's because they just didn't get it until well after every other coastal area got it (low population, essential travel only in the rest of the state). In the case of my county, it's because from Memorial Day weekend onward, our activity levels as measured by Google Analytics and other measures have gone back to 50% of normal - in short, no one obeyed even the lax rules of our county Public Health officer. No one work masks. Everyone went out and has stayed out since, with increasing numbers of places to go and contract CoVid.

Opening everything up will not restore the economy and people will go homeless as others continue to shelter themselves.

I don't know you or your values, but 80% of younger people at our college do not want real world classes. They are not returning to their pre-CoVid habits. Why? Because we now have more active cases than ever.

What will happen, of course, is a shift from the very old being dead to the young being very sick. 20% of people between 25 and 45 will require hospitalization. Average hospital stays are 20 days.

Think of the medical bills. Think of how the economy will have to shift toward health care.

And in your model, this will go on for as long as 3-4 years.

Whether you want it or not, the hospitality sector and even Disneyland will remain closed. Many service sector jobs (including all of the ones so sought after by many) will close. The number of corporate bankruptcies is just starting to climb (or store closures - Santa Barbara just lost the kingpin of its Paseo Nuevo: Nordstrom's quietly closed without a word to the public and put their large space back on the market - that's happening all over the US).

This is just getting started. Naturally about half of the population will get CoVid and only feel moderately ill (although if you read the article posted here yesterday about the nurse with the mild-moderate case and you still believe that EVERYONE MUST GET THIS DISEASE OR STAY HOME, which is your message)

It's not good public health practice, going out is optional, tons more people will get jobs that allow working from home - if they're employed at all - the world will undergo a 5 year radical change in economy, all because so many people think "everyone getting it" is the way to go.

I don't want anyone to get it. It's an awful disease that leaves young and old alike with permanent lung damage. The number of people awaiting lung transplants goes up every day and healthy life expectancy drops each day..

For all we know, we can get this disease again and again, until we hit about 50 years old, when we can look forward to a late middle age of CoVid, lung and heart issues, increased diabetes (CoVid can cause diabetes is the newest calamity) and so on.

But closing down was never real and never an option. Of course the protests fueled it (look at Los Angeles). Look at the demographics of who is getting admitted. Look at the places where hospitals are now full. It's not the protesters themselves, necessarily, but people to whom they communicated CoVid. We aren't seeing the deaths from that yet - and we pray that since it's younger people on this go-round, deaths will be less.

But the costs to the economy and to overall American health are worsened by not trying to curb this thing.

One third to one half of Americans won't wear masks, so I assume they agree with you. It's nice that you are okay with words being "pelted," but I am more concerned about this actual disease. The more I see of it and the more I read the medical literature, the less I want it myself.

There is one hope for some of us: a vaccine. If we get it in time to save Disneyland, I will go back.

There will be tons of unvaccinated people at Disneyland, of course. But those of us with adequate antibodies can go safely and let everyone else get it, without their masks.

With a vaccine, and with the process you're advocating, CoVId will still circulate, perhaps at a level high enough to discourage international travel to the US, but as the vaccine becomes available to wealthier nations worldwide, the vaccinated and the unvaccinated will come and then and only then will we get back to the New Economy. The unemployment will remain high throughout this.

Anyway - your ideas are the ones we are apparently going to use, and I guess we will all be on the same roller coaster. I'm going to buckle up, it's a choice we each can make.
 
I'll probably be pelted with rotten fruit, but I have 2 thoughts on virus thingee:

My first thought is, we are now seeing a spike because of the protests, peaceful and/or otherwise. Disagree if you will, deny if you will, but this is how "I" see it. I further believe there will be other spikes due to other congregations, rallies if you will, beachgoers possibly, people just deciding to live their lives.

My second thought is to let people live their lives as they see fit. Open everything up. By now everyone has been told ad nauseum the risks of this virus. Those who want to wear masks and distance, go for it. Those who want to hiberinate, by all means do so. Even so, open up and let the chips fall where they may. We need to get over this thing quickly to keep the world economy afloat, and that impacts each and every one of us.

We heard at first that hospitals would be overwhelmed. I didn't see so much of that. Didn't Cuomo send back the hospital ship? Then there was a shortage of ventilators. Didn't we also hear that they did more harm than good at times? Then there were the nursing homes - well, enough old folks died. . .'nuff said about that.

I may sound cruel, stupid, naiive, but to me the horse is already out of the barn. Let's ride this thing through to the end and be done with it.

One thing though, I wish everyone to make their peace with God.

Pelt away.

MY OPINION ONLY
I agree with you and the reason for the spikes. I have looked at the current cases hotspots eg two counties in Florida and if you look at the wiki link also for the gatherings the majority are in those two counties. We also had Memorial Day weekend. It is going to be difficult getting the genie back in the bottle now so social distancing and reduced capacities will have to suffice. Have we heard how Vegas are doing? I think Nevada is one of the states with increases. Vegas is open now right? MOO.
 
There are many who feel the same way. Unfortunately it's hard to find a platform, so we have to evangelize, one person at a time.

The mask argument, for example, is easy to settle - I posted this weeks ago - stop worrying about needing other people to protect you - get a proper mask that protects you. I wear my N95 and someone commented on the "regulator" not stopping my outgoing "spew." I said "I'm not wearing it for anyone else."

I just ran out to the store and sports talk radio is the latest source of frustration - if I hear one more multi-millionaire talk about "health and safety" being the prime concern, I'm going to drive off the road. If you don't want to play, then don't play. If fans don't want to attend, they won't attend. Can you imagine guys like Dick Butkus or Mike Ditka being concerned about this? Word would have gone out to their teammates and coaches that the first one to complain of symptoms and get tested would have Hell to pay. If you're dying, go to the hospital, otherwise rub some dirt on it and get back in the game.

I don't believe major league sports (baseball, football, hockey) are do-able with the backdrop of the pandemic. What happens when the inevitable positive test shows up in a couple players? They were talking on sports TV about what the baseball players have to go through in order to even play- it doesn't even sound like fun for the players: it will be a drudge ---
 
I realize there is not an answer forthcoming to this question. But I wish someone would ask, of those who say we should just live with a certain # of deaths going forward and that it's time to accept that as the price for moving forward. What # of daily deaths should we accept? Is there an actual limit, or will that be ever changing as the numbers rise?

500 per day? 1,000 per day? 1,500? Or if it gets to say 2,000/Day, will that be the # to accept? Just curious.
 
We Flattened The Curve!

EbXf4xWXYAAHaYq.jpg
Other countries featured on the graph did. We kind of started to, slowly, and then of course we had to open everything up. With totally predictable results.
 
CARROLLTON, Texas — As North Texas watches COVID-19 cases and hospitalizations surge, one family is shouldering a health crisis that they never expected to face.

That crisis, all began on May 30 when just a single relative, unknowingly infected with COVID-19, interacted with seven family members at a surprise birthday party.

North Texas family shaken after 18 relatives test positive for COVID-19 following surprise birthday party

“Even though everyone did their best to stay socially distant, Barbosa said it wasn't enough.”
——————-
The pictures and video in the article clearly show that to be a lie.

Must have been a damn important birthday to risk your entire family and put Dad in ICU on life support.

JMO
 
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I think the biggest problem we have right now with Covid-19 is complacency. We all play a part in creating a safer environment for our communities. Social distancing and masking are not substitutes for one another. When possible they should be practiced together. However, we need to remember that it's not a one size fits all and some people are unable to follow those recommendations.

I feel that we need to start transitioning from a crisis response to a long term response. At this point, we need to learn to live in a Covid environment.

And that means learning to live with much less. Air bridge delivery of goods from China is going to make retail so expensive, for what retail survives. Christmas will be interesting. I doubt we'll have air bridges by then, anyway and we still have warehouses (rapidly depleting) of many Asian goods (not just from China, but from Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, India and Pakistan). Wow - where are we going to get our stuff, I wonder? We can't even seem to make our own N95 masks at 4 months in. And they are not hard to make (although the factories need to be sterile and free of disease, obviously).

Yes, we need to prepare ourselves for an entirely different world. I don't think a truly tested vaccine will be available until 2022. Each of us can have our own standards for that, too, right? And a lot of people won't take it.

The sadness of this is just hitting me, and just hitting a lot of people. It's very sad for those now unemployed and those just reaching the job market. I sure hope the US finds a way for rent and mortgage protection.

One third of Americans have missed a mortgage payment in the past 4 months, and there will be little to no change to the status of their jobs. Most of their jobs depended on the business they worked for having a tiny profit margin, in which even a 5% dip in sales put the business in jeopardy and if the dip continued for a year, they had to close or lay off.

Business is going to see longterm serious 'dips' far beyond 5%. Hotels and motels will start to close next - the number of people willing to travel in this pandemic will not bounce back until it's over.

I think of when we have measles or chickenpox we must stay away from other people, to protect those people.

We know there is a raging coronavirus pandemic. We don't know exactly who is carrying the virus. Protection seems the best avenue for all. Government input or no government input.

Yep. And congrats to your nation for its stellar handling of CoVid. I feel badly that we won't be seeing as many of you here in the US, if travel ever resumes. No one is going to want to come to Disneyland if the ticket prices are 5X higher. If it ever opens. My other hobby is being a DE on TripAdvisor, but, well, there are very few Australians asking for advice and I miss their "How many sleeps till Disneyland?" posts.

We can't come visit you, either.

But you are right and your country seems to share this highly sensible attitude, as do so many other nations. It must be eye-opening to read this forum.
 
I realize there is not an answer forthcoming to this question. But I wish someone would ask, of those who say we should just live with a certain # of deaths going forward and that it's time to accept that as the price for moving forward. What # of daily deaths should we accept? Is there an actual limit, or will that be ever changing as the numbers rise?

500 per day? 1,000 per day? 1,500? Or if it gets to say 2,000/Day, will that be the # to accept? Just curious.

Here's the thing: that is an abstract question: my answer is personal: I don't want to be one of the those deaths: i don't want to be considered collateral damage in a society that feels that so many deaths is the price we pay for just doin' our own thing as a society- that is not acceptable to me and i am sure to many others. I am one of the vulnerable persons due to age: At this point I leave the house only to go to the store and get my hair done. that is it. oh, and to go to doctor appts.
 
I'll probably be pelted with rotten fruit, but I have 2 thoughts on virus thingee:

My first thought is, we are now seeing a spike because of the protests, peaceful and/or otherwise. Disagree if you will, deny if you will, but this is how "I" see it. I further believe there will be other spikes due to other congregations, rallies if you will, beachgoers possibly, people just deciding to live their lives.

My second thought is to let people live their lives as they see fit. Open everything up. By now everyone has been told ad nauseum the risks of this virus. Those who want to wear masks and distance, go for it. Those who want to hiberinate, by all means do so. Even so, open up and let the chips fall where they may. We need to get over this thing quickly to keep the world economy afloat, and that impacts each and every one of us.

We heard at first that hospitals would be overwhelmed. I didn't see so much of that. Didn't Cuomo send back the hospital ship? Then there was a shortage of ventilators. Didn't we also hear that they did more harm than good at times? Then there were the nursing homes - well, enough old folks died. . .'nuff said about that.

I may sound cruel, stupid, naiive, but to me the horse is already out of the barn. Let's ride this thing through to the end and be done with it.

One thing though, I wish everyone to make their peace with God.

Pelt away.

MY OPINION ONLY
Seriously, my biggest problem with this thought is the virus "thingee"
 
I sympathise with the towns and the tourists. The rubbish is a disgrace but it happens all the time under normal circumstances. They have been locked up for months. It will ease.

"One woman from Birmingham admitted she felt uncomfortable, but said: "You've got to understand, after three months lockdown in the city centre, even seeing the sea is worth it." "

Get the pubs open and the sport back on quickly.

Cheer up because it will be raining tomorrow and they will probably all go home.
Unfortunately, how many will go home with more than their cool box and towel tho?

I cant personally accept that sense of entitlement tbh. Dont they get it? They are off work because of the virus. The guy that said yeahhh well I dont even know anyone who had it so...mind you, we'll probably get a second wave now...

Yes we probably will! Thanks mate
 
And that means learning to live with much less. Air bridge delivery of goods from China is going to make retail so expensive, for what retail survives. Christmas will be interesting. I doubt we'll have air bridges by then, anyway and we still have warehouses (rapidly depleting) of many Asian goods (not just from China, but from Taiwan, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, Singapore, Japan, India and Pakistan). Wow - where are we going to get our stuff, I wonder? We can't even seem to make our own N95 masks at 4 months in. And they are not hard to make (although the factories need to be sterile and free of disease, obviously).

Yes, we need to prepare ourselves for an entirely different world. I don't think a truly tested vaccine will be available until 2022. Each of us can have our own standards for that, too, right? And a lot of people won't take it.

The sadness of this is just hitting me, and just hitting a lot of people. It's very sad for those now unemployed and those just reaching the job market. I sure hope the US finds a way for rent and mortgage protection.

One third of Americans have missed a mortgage payment in the past 4 months, and there will be little to no change to the status of their jobs. Most of their jobs depended on the business they worked for having a tiny profit margin, in which even a 5% dip in sales put the business in jeopardy and if the dip continued for a year, they had to close or lay off.

Business is going to see longterm serious 'dips' far beyond 5%. Hotels and motels will start to close next - the number of people willing to travel in this pandemic will not bounce back until it's over.



Yep. And congrats to your nation for its stellar handling of CoVid. I feel badly that we won't be seeing as many of you here in the US, if travel ever resumes. No one is going to want to come to Disneyland if the ticket prices are 5X higher. If it ever opens. My other hobby is being a DE on TripAdvisor, but, well, there are very few Australians asking for advice and I miss their "How many sleeps till Disneyland?" posts.

We can't come visit you, either.

But you are right and your country seems to share this highly sensible attitude, as do so many other nations. It must be eye-opening to read this forum.

Our economy is going to suffer greatly. There's no way around it.
 
That might be their best. By the way, Barbosa is the one who didn't go to the party because he deemed it too dangerous. They might have told him they were socially distancing because it sounds like he is pretty pissed at the rest of his relatives who went to the party (and with good reason).
 
I cant personally accept that sense of entitlement tbh. Dont they get it? They are off work because of the virus. The guy that said yeahhh well I dont even know anyone who had it so...mind you, we'll probably get a second wave now...

Yes we probably will! Thanks mate

Yeah, I like to point out to people who mention a 2nd wave, that the 2nd wave being talked about is the one to come in the Fall, when Flu season arrives.

We're still in the 1st Wave. You see, the curve needs to be flattened in order for the wave to be over. Our curve came about halfway down, before starting to rise again. Point being, we're still in the 1st Wave over here in the U.S.
 
That might be their best. By the way, Barbosa is the one who didn't go to the party because he deemed it too dangerous. They might have told him they were socially distancing because it sounds like he is pretty pissed at the rest of his relatives who went to the party (and with good reason).
There was no distancing when folks were posing for pics. Think of every person touching the serving utensils. Being indoors etc. etc. so many ways to transmit.
 
There was no distancing when folks were posing for pics. Think of every person touching the serving utensils. Being indoors etc. etc. so many ways to transmit.
I know. Which is why one shouldn't necessarily believe people when they claim they have no clue how they got it, because they are socially distancing and so on. Clearly none of the people at the party wore masks or were socially distancing, based on video and photos.
 
Why these meatpacking workers fear for their health and safety amid COVID-19
Many U.S. meatpacking plants shut down this spring due to coronavirus outbreaks. Nationwide, more than 27,000 workers have become infected, and nearly 100 have died. But in late April, President Trump ordered the facilities to stay open, deeming them critical to preserving the nation’s meat supply. Special correspondent Fred de Sam Lazaro reports on the experiences of some of these workers.

This is a strand I'm very interested in. Given the new ban on any type of work visas for foreign nationals, I do wonder what's going to happen in our food supply. It seems there are only a few choices.

1. All packing houses revise their workspaces to protect employees. This literally means having way less meat packed at a time and major capital investments in an industry already plagued by profits at the bottom line. These are businesses already located in areas with cheaper labor. Result: meat prices go up.

(it's not just meat, we've got the same issue here - in my county, packing houses are the source of the biggest chunk of new cases in the past month, so produce prices go up - see what's happening in Imperial County, CA where some of you are probably getting your produce or San Joaquin Valley) Produce prices go up.

2. New workers have to be recruited. Since the current workers are not wanting to return to their jobs, given what they've just experienced and seen, if conditions don't change, new workers need to be sought. Most of the places where these packing facilities are do not have much surplus labor. So the food packing industry is going to have to recruit in the time of CoVid and desperate people, I suppose, will move into those towns to work in CoVid-prone jobs.

What will become of the previous workers? How will that go down? I predict conflict and grief.

3. New workers get sick, rinse and repeat?

Wow. How long is that sustainable, I wonder? I don't think it is. I think the industry will either be forced back to solution 1 or to raise wages and keep using people in a disposable manner. The workers' comp on this will be enormous.

In any of these scenarios, price on meat goes up. And up. And on produce too (if some parts of that industry don't collapse altogether, for niche products especially).

This will not affect all regions in the same way - but as the theme today seems to be "no overall governmental intervention, each region and each person decides for themselves), we are clearly going to have to go through the first half of the 20th century, economically, to realize that "each person for themselves" doesn't work in our current global situation. I know there are many isolationists and they're entitled to their views, but the reality of what will happen as a result will affect some people way more than others. States that are heavily dependent on a distant food supply will suffer more. Truck drivers, already a group of unhappy campers due to high rates of CoVid, will also need to be constantly recruited as the current group continues to experience thinning of its ranks.
 
Our economy is going to suffer greatly. There's no way around it.

It's probably going to suffer more.

You see, we're like a Gambler who is Down $100K and at a Roulette table. Now said gambler could play it conservatively, betting smaller amounts, trying to claw his way out of the hole.

But we did not choose that path. We decided to go ALL IN, on reopening. We just put our last $100K on Black, hoping we can save ourselves. But as the wheel spins, and the ball bounces around, it keeps popping in and out of Red #'s. The wheel hasn't stopped spinning, so there's still the chance for a win. But as it slows, things are beginning to look more and more like a bust.
 
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