Coronavirus COVID-19 - Global Health Pandemic #91

[10ofRods]

https://nypost.com/2021/01/01/alarm...h-care-workers-are-refusing-covid-19-vaccine/

Brought over from prior thread.

I told everyone this was going to be an issue. We’ve done a terrible job of educating about this vaccine. I don’t know if that would’ve helped, but it’s possible it would’ve helped at least some.

The way I see it, I didn’t personally want to get the vaccine, but it seemed to be the lesser of two evils at this point. And there’s at least part of me that feels like those who choose not to get it are a bit more “on their own” in terms of if they end up getting covid or not.

I think that, eventually, the consequences will be loss of employment. Care homes cannot withstand the liability of allowing their employees to forego the vaccine.

In many states, children are required to be vaccinated to attend school, and if parents refuse, they are given an alternative. The alternative of a special plan and homeschooling is contigent upon the parents providing some medical documentation, although it's very loosely enforced here in California.

Teachers have to do certain health-related things, by law, to remain employed (TB test, mandatory leave of absence if positive, reduced pay during that period where I work) and it will likely end up the same for healthcare workers.

It's too bad it has to be this way when, as you say, education should have done the trick. It takes me about 9 weeks to teach incoming undergrads what DNA and RNA are (without that knowledge, it's not possible to understand either the virus - or why and how the vaccine works).

Many of my students are care home workers, trying to move one rung up the ladder to an R.N. or even to just an L.V.N. and they are surprised by what "germs" really are and how vaccines work. Without that knowledge, it's not surprising that healthcare workers are hesitant.

These include the same healthcare workers who took covid from home to home (and still do) because people do not understand "asymptomatic" and "carrier" status. Sadly, most are not unionized (unions play a huge role in educating employees properly) and most work for barely profitable, scandalously understaffed places. It was very eye-opening when I had to place my father in the only reasonably good slot available near my home. I was surprised to see that most of the staff were in fact...students with less than 12 units, with L.V.N's with 24 units.

(I just looked it up and see that the regulations in California allow fewer than 24 units).

People do have to see and experience to believe, and if they can't do that in a classroom, they'll do it on the job, with serious consequences for everyone.

 

[10ofRods]

The short answer is we don’t know for sure if the vaccine stops a person from transmitting the virus as effectively as it stops a person from developing severe symptoms. There is much talk about how to study this very question.

Honestly? We might get better vaccine compliance in the US if the vaccine only protects the person vaccinated. JMHO.

Wow. That's pretty cynical - and my experience of healthcare workers is that they are not so selfish as many people we see defying masks (etc) in public.

In fact, I'd say most of them are very caring, but uneducated. And they hear things about this virus that make them think it was hurried through.

BTW, there's a lot of optimism that this is in fact a set of sterilizing vaccines. You are correct that we don't know yet, it seems clear that *some* people are unable to either get or transmit COVID after getting the vaccine (this was demonstrated in the trials in Brazil and Arizona and elsewhere - and I think we'll see the same with the further trials).

I would say that each of us should behave as if we can still transmit COVID (wear masks, social distance, etc) even after vaccination, but there are many reasons to believe that this vaccine, like many others, is sterilizing and not just providing immunity to the person vaccinated.

I would never recommend lying about science. We should not tell people that they are the only ones protect - I don't think selfishness works like that anyway.

 

[nightowl1975]

I think that, eventually, the consequences will be loss of employment. Care homes cannot withstand the liability of allowing their employees to forego the vaccine.

In many states, children are required to be vaccinated to attend school, and if parents refuse, they are given an alternative. The alternative of a special plan and homeschooling is contigent upon the parents providing some medical documentation, although it's very loosely enforced here in California.

Teachers have to do certain health-related things, by law, to remain employed (TB test, mandatory leave of absence if positive, reduced pay during that period where I work) and it will likely end up the same for healthcare workers.

It's too bad it has to be this way when, as you say, education should have done the trick. It takes me about 9 weeks to teach incoming undergrads what DNA and RNA are (without that knowledge, it's not possible to understand either the virus - or why and how the vaccine works).

Many of my students are care home workers, trying to move one rung up the ladder to an R.N. or even to just an L.V.N. and they are surprised by what "germs" really are and how vaccines work. Without that knowledge, it's not surprising that healthcare workers are hesitant.

These include the same healthcare workers who took covid from home to home (and still do) because people do not understand "asymptomatic" and "carrier" status. Sadly, most are not unionized (unions play a huge role in educating employees properly) and most work for barely profitable, scandalously understaffed places. It was very eye-opening when I had to place my father in the only reasonably good slot available near my home. I was surprised to see that most of the staff were in fact...students with less than 12 units, with L.V.N's with 24 units.

(I just looked it up and see that the regulations in California allow fewer than 24 units).

People do have to see and experience to believe, and if they can't do that in a classroom, they'll do it on the job, with serious consequences for everyone.

The legal advice my company received was that we would be unlikely to enforce mandatory covid vaccines until the vaccine receives full FDA approval vs the current emergency use authorization. I *do* envision a person’s covid vaccine status weighing heavily in the decision-making process during interviews and hiring decisions.

Edited to ask: Are care homes still sharing staff? That’s awful! Texas stopped sharing staff back in March. We still don’t share staff to this day. It’s a hot mess sometimes trying to schedule, but it’s the safest option.

 

[nightowl1975]

Wow. That's pretty cynical - and my experience of healthcare workers is that they are not so selfish as many people we see defying masks (etc) in public.

In fact, I'd say most of them are very caring, but uneducated. And they hear things about this virus that make them think it was hurried through.

BTW, there's a lot of optimism that this is in fact a set of sterilizing vaccines. You are correct that we don't know yet, it seems clear that *some* people are unable to either get or transmit COVID after getting the vaccine (this was demonstrated in the trials in Brazil and Arizona and elsewhere - and I think we'll see the same with the further trials).

I would say that each of us should behave as if we can still transmit COVID (wear masks, social distance, etc) even after vaccination, but there are many reasons to believe that this vaccine, like many others, is sterilizing and not just providing immunity to the person vaccinated.

I would never recommend lying about science. We should not tell people that they are the only ones protect - I don't think selfishness works like that anyway.

I wasn’t speaking of healthcare workers so much as the general American public when I said it might work out better if we do find that the vaccine really only protects the person getting the vaccine. Why? The average unselfish American is probably going to get the vaccine anyway. The average selfish American? Not so much, unless they knew those who are vaccinated won’t get terribly sick or die, but might still be infectious. Then the average selfish person might be more motivated to get vaccinated. Or maybe not.

I would never advocate for lying to the public about the vaccine, regardless of what the truth of it ultimately turns out to be (it protects just the vaccinated person, it protects the vaccinated person AND others, etc). I’m not sure where that thought process came from, but I didn’t suggest lying to anyone.

 

[Yvettea]

If anyone asks again maybe I should say, “get the vaccine now when there’s less competition. Later you will have to compete with everyone 18 and up.” Getting the vaccine early is a privilege.

Can you not see how, that if it stops people from dying or having long lasting complications is useful?

Surely anyone can see this.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

420

 

[Gibbo214]

If anyone asks again maybe I should say, “get the vaccine now when there’s less competition. Later you will have to compete with everyone 18 and up.” Getting the vaccine early is a privilege.

Surely anyone can see this.

It seems that that they cannot or do not want to and will use that as an excuse to not want to. I do not understand it.

 

[nightowl1975]

Can you not see how, that if it stops people from dying or having long lasting complications is useful?

What makes you ask this? Of course it’s useful for this vaccine to stop people from dying or having long lasting complications. It would drastically decrease the burden on our hospitals for one. And of course less dead people and less severely sick people is also a win win. What made you think I thought otherwise?

 

[10ofRods]

I wasn’t speaking of healthcare workers so much as the general American public when I said it might work out better if we do find that the vaccine really only protects the person getting the vaccine. Why? The average unselfish American is probably going to get the vaccine anyway. The average selfish American? Not so much, unless they knew those who are vaccinated won’t get terribly sick or die, but might still be infectious. Then the average selfish person might be more motivated to get vaccinated. Or maybe not.

I would never advocate for lying to the public about the vaccine, regardless of what the truth of it ultimately turns out to be (it protects just the vaccinated person, it protects the vaccinated person AND others, etc). I’m not sure where that thought process came from, but I didn’t suggest lying to anyone.

Well, okay. But as a person who has spent my life studying "the American public" I don't see how your view works in general.

How much do you know about motivating selfish Americans? I feel like I know quite a bit, having had so many students and so many other types of interactions (in jails, hospitals, courts) over the years. At some level, everyone is selfish, if by that you mean the animal nature.

Your idea that we can get away with mere messaging, as opposed to spending money, seems naive to me, frankly. We are going to have to *pay* those people to get the vaccine (and that has already been suggested by actual politicians). They don't care about sickness, but they will do it if they get more than just their $600 stimulus.

Just wait - you'll see that we can bribe them. Or, we can make it a necessity for them to get a particular job or go into the jails or the courts. We can make LE and firemen get it through law.

Mere messaging that they'll be protected *won't work* because we've been messaging in that manner for a year and it has not worked. Repeating the same mistakes is not going to work.

They do not care if they are protected because they do not think they are going to suffer much from covid in the first place. Read what they're writing, listen to their interviews.

And consider: they are absolutely right: the vast majority of people will not die of covid, particularly in their age groups.

From that point of view, they do not need a vaccine to "protect themselves." Good luck should be plenty for a 25 or 30 year old. Or even a 40 year old...

 

[Yvettea]

Britain Opens Door to Mix-and-Match Vaccinations, Worrying Experts

If a second dose of one vaccine isn’t available, another may be substituted, according to the guidelines.

 

[nightowl1975]

Well, okay. But as a person who has spent my life studying "the American public" I don't see how your view works in general.

How much do you know about motivating selfish Americans? I feel like I know quite a bit, having had so many students and so many other types of interactions (in jails, hospitals, courts) over the years. At some level, everyone is selfish, if by that you mean the animal nature.

Your idea that we can get away with mere messaging, as opposed to spending money, seems naive to me, frankly. We are going to have to *pay* those people to get the vaccine (and that has already been suggested by actual politicians). They don't care about sickness, but they will do it if they get more than just their $600 stimulus.

Just wait - you'll see that we can bribe them. Or, we can make it a necessity for them to get a particular job or go into the jails or the courts. We can make LE and firemen get it through law.

Mere messaging that they'll be protected *won't work* because we've been messaging in that manner for a year and it has not worked. Repeating the same mistakes is not going to work.

They do not care if they are protected because they do not think they are going to suffer much from covid in the first place. Read what they're writing, listen to their interviews.

And consider: they are absolutely right: the vast majority of people will not die of covid, particularly in their age groups.

From that point of view, they do not need a vaccine to "protect themselves." Good luck should be plenty for a 25 or 30 year old. Or even a 40 year old...

Do you believe the ONLY way to get people to take the vaccine is to pay them to do so?

You’ll note I never said the ONLY thing we need to do is educate people and all will be hunky dory and everyone will willingly line up to get the vaccine.

In fact, I believe there are some, albeit a small percentage, who can’t be paid to take the vaccine and would howl even louder that it surely IS a conspiracy if we tried to pay them.

So, no, I don’t think paying people is going to be the end all, be all either. It’s going to be a lot more complex than that IMO.

 

[nightowl1975]

Britain Opens Door to Mix-and-Match Vaccinations, Worrying Experts

If a second dose of one vaccine isn’t available, another may be substituted, according to the guidelines.

From the article:

“Some scientists say Britain is gambling with its new guidance. “There are no data on this idea whatsoever,” said John Moore, a vaccine expert at Cornell University. Officials in Britain “seem to have abandoned science completely now and are just trying to guess their way out of a mess.”

This made me think of how we have no real data on pregnant or breastfeeding women getting the vaccine, but we’re giving it to them anyway. The last I saw, there were what? Maybe 20-25 women that accidentally became pregnant (or were too early to know they were pregnant I suppose) in the trials? So we are vaccinating pregnant women with zero real clue if it’s safe or not. Science tells us it should be. But it hasn’t been studied in any controlled way.

I’m not sure how this is all that different. These folks will be guinea pigs for the concept of mix-and-match vaccines, and we’ll learn from them I guess. What a mess.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

COVID outbreak: Dozens of San Jose Kaiser employees test positive

SAN JOSE, Calif. (KRON) — A COVID-19 outbreak was reported at a South Bay hospital that infected dozens of employees.

43 staff members at the Kaiser Permanente San Jose Medical Center Emergency Department tested positive for COVID-19 between Dec. 27 and Jan. 1, senior vice president and area manager Irene Chavez confirmed Saturday.

The outbreak is being investigated and officials are using contact tracing to notify and test any staff or patients who were exposed during the time period.

Officials are looking into a staff member arriving into the emergency department wearing an air”-powered costume on Christmas Day. They say any exposure would have been accidental as the person had no COVID symptoms.

“The individual had no COVID symptoms and only sought to lift the spirits of those around them during what is a very stressful time. If anything, this should serve as a very real reminder that the virus is widespread, and often without symptoms, and we must all be vigilant,” Chavez said in a statement.

Although unconfirmed, Chavez says air-powered costumers will no longer be allowed at the facilities.

Emergency Department staff who received a first dose of the vaccine less than 10 days ago would not be expected to be immune to the virus at the time of the exposure.

Health officials say it is important to note that you must receive the two doses of the vaccine to be protected.

Employees confirmed or suspected to have COVID-19 will not report to work.

COVID outbreak: Dozens of San Jose Kaiser employees test positive | KRON4

ETA: “The individual had no COVID symptoms and only sought to lift the spirits of those around them during what is a very stressful time. If anything, this should serve as a very real reminder that the virus is widespread, and often without symptoms, and we must all be vigilant,” Chavez said in a statement.

Although unconfirmed, Chavez says air-powered costumers will no longer be allowed at the facilities.

I can think of 1,000 witty things to say about this, if it weren't so tragically sad & pathetic. Who here among us on this thread would have thought this was an intelligent idea for a hospital during California's worst period of the pandemic, let alone ANY time during the pandemic?

I only wonder if Ms Chavez will get a promotion for this.

Words I never would have thought could all be uttered in the same sentence: Covid-19, Hospital, Air-Powered Costumers.

 

[margarita25]

 

[margarita25]

Dbm

 

[Yvettea]

SAN JOSE, Calif. (KRON) —
Officials are looking into a staff member arriving into the emergency department wearing an air”-powered costume on Christmas Day. They say any exposure would have been accidental as the person had no COVID symptoms.

RSBM

Just when you think you’ve heard it all!

 

[SouthAussie]

I imagine that most of those people were vaccinated and had their children vaccinated, so why now are they worried that a vaccine will alter their DNA? I don't think that they have any idea of what that means but have just heard it somewhere.

Exactly.

They were vaccinated against measles, their children were vaccinated against measles. Why? So they didn't catch measles. Measles won't necessarily kill you or make you blind. But it might.

Why should it take more than this kind of historic knowledge to understand that a covid vaccine is for that same purpose?

 

[Gibbo214]

If anyone asks again maybe I should say, “get the vaccine now when there’s less competition. Later you will have to compete with everyone 18 and up.” Getting the vaccine early is a privilege.

Surely anyone can see this.

What makes you ask this? Of course it’s useful for this vaccine to stop people from dying or having long lasting complications. It would drastically decrease the burden on our hospitals for one. And of course less dead people and less severely sick people is also a win win. What made you think I thought otherwise?

You answered your own question and you did ask the question.

 

[SouthAussie]

COVID outbreak: Dozens of San Jose Kaiser employees test positive

SAN JOSE, Calif. (KRON) — A COVID-19 outbreak was reported at a South Bay hospital that infected dozens of employees.

43 staff members at the Kaiser Permanente San Jose Medical Center Emergency Department tested positive for COVID-19 between Dec. 27 and Jan. 1, senior vice president and area manager Irene Chavez confirmed Saturday.

The outbreak is being investigated and officials are using contact tracing to notify and test any staff or patients who were exposed during the time period.

Officials are looking into a staff member arriving into the emergency department wearing an air”-powered costume on Christmas Day. They say any exposure would have been accidental as the person had no COVID symptoms.

“The individual had no COVID symptoms and only sought to lift the spirits of those around them during what is a very stressful time. If anything, this should serve as a very real reminder that the virus is widespread, and often without symptoms, and we must all be vigilant,” Chavez said in a statement.

Although unconfirmed, Chavez says air-powered costumers will no longer be allowed at the facilities.

Emergency Department staff who received a first dose of the vaccine less than 10 days ago would not be expected to be immune to the virus at the time of the exposure.

Health officials say it is important to note that you must receive the two doses of the vaccine to be protected.

Employees confirmed or suspected to have COVID-19 will not report to work.

COVID outbreak: Dozens of San Jose Kaiser employees test positive | KRON4

I had to look that one up. An air powered costume.
Then I had to look up why that was a danger. Because the costume's fan might have spread covid-infected air droplets around the hospital.

 

[Yvettea]

Exactly.

They were vaccinated against measles, their children were vaccinated against measles. Why? So they didn't catch measles. Measles won't necessarily kill you or make you blind. But it might.

Why should it take more than this kind of historic knowledge to understand that a covid vaccine is for that same purpose?

Within the last 100 years families routinely lost children to ‘childhood’ illnesses (or had children who suffered serious effects.) Many of us do not forget so easily our family history.