Court Appearances and Canadian Legal Terms

[Arnie M]

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Hmmmm .... murders usually pay ..... with life in prison .... not money

And if the courts were to assess financial compensation to the victims , it would have to include the poor as well as the wealthy.

We can sue people or corporations for liability .... selling a dangerous product etc , but murder ???

Hard to say .... anyone ever heard of that in Canada ??

.

 

[Tamarind]

Didn't they complete their investigations into LB and WM, allowing charges, disclosure, and procedure on to a preliminary inquiry, with dates set for both cases?

People really think LE thinks is silos and sequentially, only working on one case at a time? Like on WS ha ha ha where we always stick to just one case at one time!!! Every thread is about only one thing, and we don't start a new topic until that thread is closed!

The case was "Project Capella" and judging by the whack of charges laid April 2014, LE was watching a bunch of people for a long time.

I don't know if it would have been efficient to only investigate what led up to the TB thing, and then to go back to the same people months later and ask them about WM, and then come back again to see if anyone remembers what went on with LB.

No, LE were probably there to talk about DM, which means TB, WM, LB, MS and all of his other associates. They fed all of their info into their PowerCase database and allowed the database to suss out linkages and sort out what was relevant to which case(s). It is because they have the PowerCase tool that LE is able to investigate all three crimes concurrently. I don't think any one investigation was holding back any other.

Keep in mind some laboratory test results might take months to return to LE and until you have the answer to those questions, an investigation would remain open.

Projects that involve say 40+ people may well be wittered down to just 10. Many that get arrested are nothing to do with the case and charges are dropped, some just plea out to something small as they cant afford lawyer fees and some keep fighting and win. The rest are the ones facing the trials. MOO JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Speaking of SB, how did I miss this interview from a year ago done during a golf tourney to raise money for Tim's Tribute?! Unfortunately the other CBC video is no longer available. My point being is IIRC SB said during that interview TB did not know the accused. In this interview she is very confident when she said "there are two men accused".

She's a beautiful soul inside and out and I have to believe her and Tim were very much in love, very close and had the type of marriage where they shared every thought, every decision, every dream, everything. She states in this interview how superb he was at this trade/business. If there was any connection between TB and the accused prior to May 6, 2013, SB would definitely have known. There was nothing underhanded or illegal going on on Tim's part and LE have also said likewise. MOO.

Kavanagh said Bosma and Millard had “no connection whatsoever” before May 6.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/05/15/tim_bosma_murder_man_was_targeted_police_say.html

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/Toronto/ID/2462779223/

I dont think anyone has suggested anything underhanded was taking place. SB may not have known everything and no doubt the wife of S Parsi found dead this week did not know who he was meeting with $400. She sounds like a beautiful soul too IMO. There will often be the unexpected that arises during a trial IMO and I am one to always expect the unexpected. JMO

 

[Tamarind]

<rsbm>

There is nothing to exempt an incorporated business from being included in a civil suit and having a percentage of blame apportioned to it (i.e. if it can be held responsible in some way for the actions of its employees or for a lack of oversight in its operations). Not saying this is the case, but for example, if it could be proved that the theft of Tim's truck was in relation to an auto theft ring that was being operated out of the hangar owned by Millard Air, the company could be considered responsible for allowing an illegal activity to take place within its premises. Even if the company did not have knowledge of such an operation, it could be argued that they should have known what the daily activities were that were taking place at that location. If the incinerator purchased by the company was used to dispose of a body and was at any time located within the company premises with no known relation to the operation of the daily activities ... etc etc.

Civil cases that deal with civil wrongs are handled in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice and as such are part of the justice system. While it is a criminal offence to murder someone, it is also a civil wrong to have a loved one murdered, forever removing them from meaningful contribution to your life (whether pain and suffering due to loss, lack of future financial contribution, etc). To a plaintiff, civil cases aren't necessarily about the almighty dollar although a financial award is the only justice that civil courts can order. Part of seeking justice is seeking all justice that is available to those wronged (thus criminal cases that result in civil cases of wrongful death). Although an award for civil wrong is in dollars, the award provides the plaintiff with the satisfaction of holding a respondent accountable to the nth degree of the law, by whatever means a court of justice can mete out.

Yes, assuming that the incinerator was bought legally on the company dollar and not by someone who did not have permission. Also if DM is not responsible for the event then his company cannot be held responsible for the rogue actions of another. IMO

Even IF DM was responsible, we have not been able to obtain proof that any such chop shop operation was underway. The truck was not found on company property at any time either. If someone buys a rope from Walmart, I dont think Walmart can be held responsible for what someone does with it IMO JMO

 

[SnooperDuper]

There is not usually any time delay for retaining counsel as the court dates are already set and the accused will be showing for hearings. So long as a representative or self ( in the case of someone there for themself) is present to obtain next court date then no time is lost.

If a motion needs to be prepared it can be prepared fairly quickly IMO. There havent been too many of those from what I have read.

Well if you read that article is says there was a 4 month delay in the process due to the fact that DM had not yet retained a lawyer, so the defense is stalling things.

 

[SnooperDuper]

.

Hmmmm .... murders usually pay ..... with life in prison .... not money

And if the courts were to assess financial compensation to the victims , it would have to include the poor as well as the wealthy.

We can sue people or corporations for liability .... selling a dangerous product etc , but murder ???

Hard to say .... anyone ever heard of that in Canada ??

.

Well I found this one: http://www.globalresearch.ca/canadi...ngs-murder-and-gang-rape-in-guatemala/5343730

In a precedent-setting ruling with national and international implications, Superior Court of Ontario Justice Carole Brown has ruled that Canadian company Hudbay Minerals can potentially be held legally responsible in Canada for rapes and murder at a mining project formerly owned by Hudbay’s subsidiary in Guatemala. As a result of Justice Brown’s ruling, the claims of 13 Mayan Guatemalans will proceed to trial in Canadian courts.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Yes, assuming that the incinerator was bought legally on the company dollar and not by someone who did not have permission. Also if DM is not responsible for the event then his company cannot be held responsible for the rogue actions of another. IMO

Even IF DM was responsible, we have not been able to obtain proof that any such chop shop operation was underway. The truck was not found on company property at any time either. If someone buys a rope from Walmart, I dont think Walmart can be held responsible for what someone does with it IMO JMO

Well this is wrong on all counts, IMO. Sure Walmart is not responsible for what you do with a rope but you and your company are, and you and your company are also liable for rogue actions of an employee.

 

[SnooperDuper]

That was in February 2015. Who was the first 21 months delay up to that point attributable to?

I'm sorry, when I Google "delay" and "DM" his lawyers keep turning up in the results. I guess it is all DM's legal tactics, to delay things as much as possible? Obviously the defense lawyers behind this, anyway.

 

[Alethea Dice]

.

Hmmmm .... murders usually pay ..... with life in prison .... not money

And if the courts were to assess financial compensation to the victims , it would have to include the poor as well as the wealthy.

We can sue people or corporations for liability .... selling a dangerous product etc , but murder ???

Hard to say .... anyone ever heard of that in Canada ??

.

No, and the courts tend to look at it the same way. Wrongful death cases in Canada are more often against someone's insurance as in an accident, or a hospital as in malpractice, or a company for an on the job death, or even the police for some negligence on their part that may have prevented the death.

Criminal charges tend to complicate the case even more. If criminal charges are laid as a result of the wrongful death claim, then the accused person may serve time in jail. This tends to restrict any claim that the plaintiff could have in the civil case for any exemplary or punitive or other damages.
The courts are basically saying that the defendant was already punished, and by that punishment you have eliminated any right to go beyond the claims for damages arising from the plaintiff&#8217;s own predicament. You are punishing the defendant, so whether or not the defendant has already been punished, you lose your right to claim any higher level of damages.

http://info.lawyershop.ca/archives/2008/01/15/the-process-that-starts-a-wrongful-death-suit/

These actions are commenced under special &#8220;wrongful death&#8221; statutes because under the common law, there is no right of action for survivors for their own loss as a result of someone else&#8217;s death.

The Canadian equivalent of the wrongful death legislation is generally known as the &#8220;fatal accidents act.&#8221; BC&#8217;s current Family Compensation Act (FCA) governs in cases of wrongful death. The Act takes into account the direct financial losses resulting from death,

http://batchelorstammlaw.com/wrongful-death/

The law, he explained, restricts compensation to financial loss and loss of affection. There&#8217;s no recovery for loss of life or wrongful death.

&#8220;The plaintiffs aspire to changing the interpretation of the Families Compensation Act to allow for punitive damage claims and straight damages for wrongful death in cases of intentional homicide,&#8221; Gratl said.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Mulgrew+Pickton+settlement+puts+inadequate+wrongful+death+spotlight/9628651/story.html

I suppose technically anyone can sue for anything, but one might take into consideration where the money is going to come from and if there is any money to be had. I'm guessing that the majority of murderers don't have a lot of funds at their disposal. As many have pointed out, there may not be any left in this case either when all is said and done.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

A little different than in the States...

In Ontario, the maximum amount currently awarded for loss of guidance, care and companionship is currently $125,000. Financial damages can be claimed in addition to these damages. For more information, see the Canadian Resource to Personal Injury.

http://thepersonalinjurylawyers.ca/types/wrongful-death-claims/wrongful-death-laws-by-province/wrongful-death-law-in-ontario/

JMO

 

[Kamille]

I'm sorry, when I Google "delay" and "DM" his lawyers keep turning up in the results. I guess it is all DM's legal tactics, to delay things as much as possible? Obviously the defense lawyers behind this, anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they also take up pretty much all of the time in the days that they have been in court arguing about public and media presence in the courtroom even though there is a publication ban on all proceedings? And the court has had to waste more time deciding whether the public had a right to be present? I don't think the prosecution has a problem with an open to the public trial but apparently the defence does. In fact I think it's only DM's defence team that are causing these delays. How does that affect MS's right to a speedy trial?

MOO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well if you read that article is says there was a 4 month delay in the process due to the fact that DM had not yet retained a lawyer, so the defense is stalling things.

Sure he needs to retain a lawyer for the motions and trial. All the previous court dates were to report on progress and set new dates.

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

I'm sorry, when I Google "delay" and "DM" his lawyers keep turning up in the results. I guess it is all DM's legal tactics, to delay things as much as possible? Obviously the defense lawyers behind this, anyway.

Funny, when I google those two words I mostly get links to LE's delay in talking to DM about LB's death. At the bottom of the page, I do get two links about the February 2015 article.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well I found this one: http://www.globalresearch.ca/canadi...ngs-murder-and-gang-rape-in-guatemala/5343730

Wow. I don't see anything in that case that compares to the circumstances in this one (or 99.9% of other murders in Canada).

JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't they also take up pretty much all of the time in the days that they have been in court arguing about public and media presence in the courtroom even though there is a publication ban on all proceedings? And the court has had to waste more time deciding whether the public had a right to be present? I don't think the prosecution has a problem with an open to the public trial but apparently the defence does. In fact I think it's only DM's defence team that are causing these delays. How does that affect MS's right to a speedy trial?

MOO

Actually, it was the Judge who ordered the in camera session and neither side would confirm if they were disputing it.

The unscheduled, three-hour appearance in February was called by Glithero and the exclusion order (or sealing order) was also his doing.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5542669-media-outlets-to-challenge-ban-barring-public-from-pretrial-motions-in-bosma-case/

Leitch said it was Glithero who called for the appearance, and Glithero who wanted it to take place behind closed doors.

http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2015/02/25/tim-bosma-family-press-barred-from-pretrial-motions.html

Assistant Crown attorney Tony Leitch wouldn't elaborate on who asked for the session to be in camera, or whether it was disputed.

Paradkar, who said he is Millard&#8217;s &#8220;expected counsel,&#8221; wouldn&#8217;t say whether he challenged Glithero&#8217;s decision.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-judge-bans-public-and-media-from-pre-trial-hearing-1.2968659

In the media challenge of the ruling, the Judge also said...

Also, Glithero has warned that if the future pretrial motions stray into an area that needs to be protected from the public, the public will again be ordered out of the courtroom.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/5543421-bosma-pretrial-open-to-public-after-media-challenge/

We can only presume it was the defense who requested it from DM's lawyer's comment....

Outside the courtroom, lawyer Faizal Mirza, who is acting for Millard, said it involves "solicitor/client privilege."

But, even that doesn't necessarily mean that it was DM who requested it. If it involves solicitor/client privilege, it could very well have been the Judge who ordered it on his own because of that privilege.

JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Well if you read that article is says there was a 4 month delay in the process due to the fact that DM had not yet retained a lawyer, so the defense is stalling things.

Somehow that doesn't seem accurate. The courts can proceed and will appoint counsel if necessary, unless the accused chooses to be unrepresented and do things them self. IMO. There are often months between court dates so I doubt that this 4 month period was a delay by defense. JMO. I think its the way the article is written that makes it appear to be due to the lack of a lawyer MOO JMO

 

[Tamarind]

Well this is wrong on all counts, IMO. Sure Walmart is not responsible for what you do with a rope but you and your company are, and you and your company are also liable for rogue actions of an employee.

Responsible for rogue actions? I think Walmart would have a claim if so. JMO

 

[Kamille]

IMO, Most families who launch a wrongful death civil suit do so on principle rather than trying to "cash in" from a perp with a big bank account. Families who do not get justice in a criminal court may seek justice on a civil level. To hold someone accountable. And families who do receive justice in a criminal court in the form of a guilty verdict may also seek to ensure that the perp does not benefit in any way from their crime with either their own funds or anything that is sent to them via groupies and fan clubs to make sure there are unlimited funds available in their bank and commissary accounts while in prison.

It may also seem offensive to a victim's family that a convicted murderer has unlimited funds available for top notch appeal attorneys and repeated court delays while the victim's family are struggling to pay the bills due to the expense of having to attend the court dates and trial to support and advocate on behalf of their murdered loved one. Or, as in the case of SB, having to make up for the loss of income due to the murder of the main income earner in the family while simultaneously raising their child alone.

It's not so much that the victim's family are trying to get a boatload of money for themselves, but more so just making sure the murderers are not profiting in any way from the crime.

And as a taxpayer, I personally feel it's wrong to be funding victim's of violent crime through useful programs such as the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board while the convicted murderers are sitting on extensive funds of their own that could be used to bring relief to the victim's family. Or are collecting funds from well meaning family members or groupies for their own comfort while their victims are struggling to deal with their loss.

MOO

 

[SnooperDuper]

Somehow that doesn't seem accurate. The courts can proceed and will appoint counsel if necessary, unless the accused chooses to be unrepresented and do things them self. IMO. There are often months between court dates so I doubt that this 4 month period was a delay by defense. JMO. I think its the way the article is written that makes it appear to be due to the lack of a lawyer MOO JMO

Here's an earlier article that explains how a delay could occur:

The Spectator has learned Paradkar is not currently retained by Millard, a possible serial killer facing charges in three separate murders.

"I am not on the record yet in Superior Court," Paradkar says, "but it's in the works right now."

While he was on the record for Millard when the matter was in the jurisdiction of the Ontario Court of Justice, once the case was committed to trial, it became a Superior Court matter. That means Paradkar must once again officially be retained by his client. That has not yet happened, even though it has been 10 weeks since it was announced that the attorney general had ordered a direct indictment, sending the case straight to trial without a preliminary hearing.

Paradkar says money is not an issue for Millard, who is the heir to his murdered father's aviation dynasty, and he expects to be on the record by the beginning of November.

"It has nothing to do with finances," says Paradkar. "It's really because of the direct indictment."

Meanwhile, however, the court process could be slowed if Millard does not officially have a lawyer who can make decisions on his behalf. And if it turns out Paradkar is not retained after all, it would mean introducing a whole new defence counsel to a case that has been ongoing since May 2013.Also, if finances are in fact a problem for Millard, there is the possibility his costs would be paid for by Legal Aid.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/4869422-bosma-murder-trial-expected-for-fall-2015/

Isn't that exactly what happened? - things were delayed until DP was in fact not retained and DM switched over to lawyer RP, which in turn caused, as the other article mentioned, a delay from September to January (4 months) in the trial date.

ETA: MS is not causing lawyer problems:

Smich’s lawyer, Thomas Dungey, has been retained.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/tim-bosma-trial-judge-hold-010433193.html

 

[Alethea Dice]

So has anyone been able to find any Canadian cases where a victim's family has sued a murderer for wrongful death? I don't mean suing an employer or a hospital, or an insurance company, or any other negligent company, I mean the actual murderer. I'd be interested in seeing some kind of evidence that this happens in Canada and haven't been able to find any samples.