Custody Hearing - Scheduled for 10/16

[SleuthyGal]

No, it's not that at all. I don't want a duplicate thread and have it told to me I should know better. It was suggested to do this about the testimony, but was unsure if I should.

I hear ya Mom, but as I understand it, separate threads devoted to focused topics are the mainstay of the WS forum. Besides, the worst that will happen is someone may make disparaging comments about such an action. And if there's ever a duplicate thread, one of the mods will merge the duplicates together--they do it ALL the time on the Caylee board. Note that there are over 1,300 separate threads on the Caylee board, compared with about 78 on the NC board.

 

[tarheellvr]

Ok, let's not rehash that old argument... let's start a new one!

Brad was married, and claimed he loved his wife, and was trying to work things out.

Yet, his wife was suddenly murdered, and he never got to say goodbye.

He did not ever publicly express rage at his loss and the woman he loved being taken violently from him by someone else. He never asked the public for their assistance in finding her killer.

And he gave up the chance to say goodbye in the manner in which it is customary to do so. There were several memorials.

Finally, he never arranged for an obituary. If he didn't want to mourn in public for whatever reason, he could have honored the woman he loved with an obituary and said goodbye to her with a loving tribute.

Brad has not acted in any manner as a man who had his wife stolen from him and brutally murdered.

He has acted as a man who was the murderer.

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Thanks for your synopsis........I agree COMPLETELY.

 

[rwesafe]

Bolding is mine...
Now THERE is speculation!

For one thing, if BC did kill NC, then he can go over the edge. Who knows what or where that edge is?! Someone who murders someone else is having extreme anger issues, I would say!

I suppose if pushed far enough anyone could go over the edge. A jealous wife, a jealous lover...anyone...

I would suspect that if he is as narcissitic and arrogant and the ego manic that he said to be, he would have snapped when he found out NC had an affair the first year of their marriage...but, clearly, he didn't....

 

[stillblv]

If he is proven to be a murderer, then he is unfit. With speculation, you have to err on the side of the rights of the father in this case. He is their father. Those girls are not in any danger.

I look at it from the perspective of keeping the children safe first. If there are any indicators that the safety of the children is in question then you have to err on the side of keeping them safe. How can you say the girls are not in any danger?

 

[Anderson]

Anderson I too would be very worried about the children being returned to him for more than a few reasons. To note a few, Brad Cooper did not take the stand, must give the defense credit here as it did negate the opportunity for CPD to testify and possibly introduce actual evidence of BC's involvement. So to me that big old elephant is still in the room because LE has not cleared Brad Cooper of involvement. Truth is, BC's defense did not remove the elephant - that round still goes to Alice Stubbs.

Second - I don't care who paid for Dr. Hilkey - he had the pleasure of interviewing Brad the next day after the deposition. Which means he had the opportunity to meet with Brad in just over 15 hours or so after Brad was confronted by something definitely not to his liking. I therefore believe that Dr. Hilkey had a much better opportunity to see Brad out of his armadillo shell. Dr. Hilkey said the following:

http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3750528/

Dr. James Hilkey, a forensic psychologist for the Rentzes and Lister, testified that he found Brad Cooper to be narcissistic and arrogant with anxiety and anger issues.

"He can keep it in check, but when it does manifest itself, it is usually directed at family members," Hilkey said. "My opinion is that this is a longstanding anger that has been with him for a fair amount of time."




I think if this does not give someone pause, then nothing will. But it says to me those children are not safe in Brad's care. It also makes me wonder if they are crying for their mother, what his treatment towards them would be.

LE has not named a suspect, or POI , but they sure as heck haven't cleared Brad Cooper and they certainly haven't been writing search warrant affidavits against anyone else.

Exellent points!! Thanks RC.

 

[SleuthyGal]

The thing is, the judge is going to consider not only the 'rights' of the defendant, but what is in the best interests of the girls as well. There's a lot to look at. It's not just the testimony in court...there are a lot of affidavits.

And remember too that this is for temporary custody (Star12 pointed out that custody agreements are always temporary because they can be changed). So her ruling doesn't necessarily mean this is it forever.

 

[Anderson]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Thanks for your synopsis........I agree COMPLETELY.

Yes, JMFLU, I also agree.:blowkiss:

 

[raisincharlie]

The thing is, the judge is going to consider not only the 'rights' of the defendant, but what is in the best interests of the girls as well. There's a lot to look at. It's not just the testimony in court...there are a lot of affidavits.

And remember too that this is for temporary custody (Star12 pointed out that custody agreements are always temporary because they can be changed). So her ruling doesn't necessarily mean this is it forever.

SG - any comments on KL's testimony that Brad hasn't paid up his half of the visitation costs ?

 

[ncsu95]

As far as the timeline…

There is now a possible sighting of NC that morning at 7:10 am which is consistent with the time that BC stated. Additionally the ME said that her TOD was consistent with the time she was reported to have gone missing.

Positions of NC’s friends…

The position of her friends is clearly based solely on what they were told by NC. I would bet good money that her friends did not know that a)she had an affair in the first year of her marriage b)Unless they were swingers…they probably did not realize that their husbands were hot for NC…or did they? c) Clearly, they did not know the amount of debt NC had, about the loans from family, the loans from the 401k and that even her daddy had stopped supplying funds because of her spending habits….

Keys, phone, jewelry at home…this is not evidence….this just is. Unless you suffer from one really serious case of OCD, no one ALWAYS wears a piece of jewelry, or ALWAYS carries their cell phone or ALWAYS takes their keys with them. Through out this entire testimony of friends it family, you hear the words ALWAYS and NEVER. If people stated, rarely, that may seem more credible. Unless you lived in that house with them, there is no possible way to say he NEVER cleaned or did laundry. IIRC, it was stated earlier the NC had started refusing to do his laundry so that is a direct contradiction to NEVER.

I don’t know if he did it or not. All we really know is that NC painted BC to be a really bad guy. Despite that, none of her friends claimed to witness BC being inappropriate with her or the children when asked in a court of law. Perhaps he is an arrogant A-hole or perhaps he is just an introvert who does not feel capable or comfortable publicly displaying his emotions. Everyone deals with grief differently and I suggest that even a typical means of grieving would be altered if it were under the glare of cameras. It is of no benefit to paint her as an angel and him as a devil. They were both human with very real world human flaws. It seems that BC is not allowed to have flaws….because for him to have them must mean he is guilty….

:clap:

 

[jumpstreet]

How can you say the girls are not in any danger?

I've been wondering about this too... exactly how do we know they aren't in current danger with the in-laws??

Some may say that it would be preposterous to think so... as the in-laws haven't been charged with a crime, nor have they been named persons-of-interest, nor has anyone testified that they have observed them be unfit guardians..., or acted violently towards the girls, and they obviously love them and would keep their best interests at heart... so surely, the girls are safe with the in-laws, right?

But wait... hmmm... come to think about it, all of the above statements can be made about BC as well! Wow!

Why not err on the side of caution, and give the girls back to their biological father until this mess is sorted out?

 

[SleuthyGal]

SG - any comments on KL's testimony that Brad hasn't paid up his half of the visitation costs ?

Brad sent a check to the Listers and this check did not clear, however this is a CASHIER'S check and therefore not the result of lack of funds or anything. No other issues around reimbursements that were mentioned.

 

[ncsu95]

I look at it from the perspective of keeping the children safe first. If there are any indicators that the safety of the children is in question then you have to err on the side of keeping them safe. How can you say the girls are not in any danger?

I don't believe the girls are in any danger of being murdered by their father.

 

[ncsu95]

I've been wondering about this too... exactly how do we know they aren't in current danger with the in-laws??

Some may say that it would be preposterous to think so... as the in-laws haven't been charged with a crime, nor have they been named persons-of-interest, nor has anyone testified that they might be unfit parents, or dangers to the girls, and they obviously love their granddaughters and would keep their best interests at heart... so surely, the girls are safe with the in-laws, right?

But wait... hmmm... come to think about it, all of the above statements can be made about BC as well! Wow!

Why not err on the side of caution, and give the girls back to their biological father until this mess is sorted out?

Exactly. Give him custody. Give them visitation rights. Have CPS actively involved to make sure they are in a safe environment.

 

[jumpstreet]

And remember too that this is for temporary custody (Star12 pointed out that custody agreements are always temporary because they can be changed). So her ruling doesn't necessarily mean this is it forever.

Seems like WS's closing was hinting for the judge to set the timeline on temporary custody at least 2 years out. He indicated that LE, and the DA may still need 2 years (or more?) to prepare their case...

We'll see I guess...

 

[RaleighNC]

But we're talking about NC going out of town for what, a week? And she comes home to someone who never cleans not even managing to do it at all while she's away and can't do it herself?

Well, really, he testified to using the time she and the kids were away to catch up at work and work long hours - didn't he say 12-14 hours a day?. Probably ate either takeout or microwave type dinners (guy stereotyping, sorry) - so - really - how dirty should the house have been if it was clean when she left????????? he also said he went to the gym, got home late, etc if I am remembering correctly.

But - in this instance - since he was the only one messing it up - he certainly should have cleaned enough to bring the house back to where it was before she left - and one person for a week, not even at home for much more than sleeping, no kids, no pets - should have taken him less than an hour. But - to me - that's not really cleaning.

 

[raisincharlie]

Brad sent a check to the Listers and this check did not clear, however this is a CASHIER'S check and therefore not the result of lack of funds or anything. No other issues around reimbursements that were mentioned.

How does a cashier's check not clear ? Any time reference put to that that you can recall.

 

[boxy]

I know who was asking the questions ! He had the opportunity to express his love or how much he missed them. Instead he says he wants to see his girls again-- his primary objective. When pressed, he mentioned helping with the investigation of Nancy's death.

I just think it odd that when he is spending all this money and time supposedly fighting for his girls, he express his love for them .I guess that goes with his personality ? upbringing ? stick to the facts?

It would seem to go with instructions from his lawyers on deposition testimony. From what I understand, depositions are not a time to present your case, rather it is a time for the other side to learn information. Most of the advice I have seen on giving a deposition is to answer the question asked, to do so completely but to not offer unsolicited information. For example, see:
http://library.findlaw.com/2000/Aug/1/129259.html

 

[Anderson]

I don't believe the girls are in any danger of being murdered by their father.

Oh well, as long as he doesn't murder them.

Seriously, we are worried about more subtle forms of abuse and the potential long-lasting effect on the girls lives. I hope that the Judge errs on the side of caution.

NCSU, I do believe that there is uncertainty, as you do. We just have different ideas about how things should proceed until there is more certainty. That is the basis of our disagreement.

 

[jumpstreet]

How does a cashier's check not clear ? Any time reference put to that that you can recall.

Did the witness say whether she had deposited the check yet? She said the funds haven't cleared... maybe it's a simple as hasn't deposited it yet. This one seems like a red herring to me.

 

[raisincharlie]

Did the witness say whether she had deposited the check yet? She said the funds haven't cleared... maybe it's a simple as hasn't deposited it yet. This one seems like a red herring to me.

Don't ask me - I'm asking the same question. Do you suppose the witness has held that check for the last month or so just so she could say this at trial ?:crazy:

Do you know how many visits have occurred and when ? Do you know when the check was forwarded to KL ? Why didn't Brad pay up front instead of having the Listers pay it and then pay them back ? Want some more questions ? I have plenty