Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[PositiveLight]

Det. Arndt was the BPD officer in the house at the time. In FF, Kolar states, "...the passage of this time came and went, without any observed comment from Ramsey. It wasn't long after this that Arndt lost track of his movements. She reported that she first made note of his absence at around 1040 hours, and he didn't reappear until noon. Nearly 1 1/2 years would pass before John Ramsey explained this absence."

Ohhhh what was JRs excuse for the missing time??

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[Annapurna]

Ohhhh what was JRs excuse for the missing time??

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He says that he as never actually gone and was looking through his mail for something from the kidnapper, and looking through binoculars out burke's window.


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[PositiveLight]

He says that he as never actually gone and was looking through his mail for something from the kidnapper, and looking through binoculars out burke's window.


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Oh my. I bet he was looking through binoculars. Looking through binoculars at his son maybe. They come up with the worst lies I swear. If he had said he was in the bathroom throwing up and having a nervous breakdown that might be understandable in the given situation. I bet he was watching the cops moving around outside and maybe looking for a route to get the body out of the house. Hmmm. I need to look at photos of the floor plan again to see what he may have been looking at.

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[TeaTime]

Oh my. I bet he was looking through binoculars. Looking through binoculars at his son maybe. They come up with the worst lies I swear. If he had said he was in the bathroom throwing up and having a nervous breakdown that might be understandable in the given situation. I bet he was watching the cops moving around outside and maybe looking for a route to get the body out of the house. Hmmm. I need to look at photos of the floor plan again to see what he may have been looking at.

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In hindsight, a couple of LE officers wondered if he was scouting out the garbage cans in the alley to see if they had been picked up yet. As in, "did he hide something in the garbage and was looking to make sure it was gone?"

JR said he was watching a mysterious blue van. No one else saw it.

 

[PositiveLight]

In hindsight, a couple of LE officers wondered if he was scouting out the garbage cans in the alley to see if they had been picked up yet. As in, "did he hide something in the garbage and was looking to make sure it was gone?"

JR said he was watching a mysterious blue van. No one else saw it.

I think they could put together a decent timeline just based off their lies and diversion tactics.

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[CoreyRocks]

He says that he as never actually gone and was looking through his mail for something from the kidnapper, and looking through binoculars out burke's window.


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What a bunch of baloney! Moo. What mail was he looking at? Mail that came before Christmas Day?

Wouldn't they have had their mail held at the post office, they were going to be gone for more than a week? So I don't think it could be mail from December 26th. I wonder what time their mail would come. Ours is especially late after a holiday. Explain to me what foreign faction would mail them information. They would have had to mail early with the holiday rush. What a crazy idea ... the BPD should have been noting all the asinine comments.

 

[TeaTime]

I hope this is the right spot to post this. I got Kolar's book at 6pm, cooked and served dinner and cleaned up afterwards and just finished reading page 74 and had to put the book down in complete disgust.

These are vile people. I am not sure I ever realized just what they did in the days after JBR's murder but John Douglas flew in to meet JR on January 8, 1997 - 13 days after the murder. When I realized this, I had to put the book down. Reading about them makes me think I need a shower. By the time of JR and Douglas' meeting, the Ramseys had been on CNN, had hired TEAMS of lawyers AND private investigators, not to mention a public relations team out of DC which handled press releases on their behalf.

By March 1997, the Ramseys had established a 501(c)(3) charitable foundation in JBR's name to, among other things, "(p)romote education on effective parenting and nurturing". They didn't talk to LE until April.

Experts from around the country were consulted by BPD, and all concluded that JBR had been the victim of repeated sexual abuse in the past, including penetration, most likely by someone in the family or an immediate friend who had lots of access to JBR alone. The FBI with whom BPD consulted told them that 6% of all child murders are done by strangers and that percentage drops dramatically when the child is found dead in their own home. Of course the Ramseys didn't know what LE knew at the time they created the 501(C)(3) to teach parents how to properly parent. I would have loved to be in the room when BPD found out about the charity. I have no words.

 

[singularity]

JR said he was watching a mysterious blue van. No one else saw it.

Except the cops and technicians who photographed it.


PATSY RAMSEY: Right. The white Volvo again in 103. I don't know that one. There is a van.

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. The Volvo, Priscilla's Volvo in photo 103 that -- if you count each car, each
car, the one, two, third car up on the right side of the street, and the van is the third car up on the left side of the street.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

-----


Even if John was reading his mail and looking for a van its certainly not the only thing he was doing to fill that time. He had a basement to rearrange.

These are vile people. I am not sure I ever realized just what they did in the days after JBR's murder but John Douglas flew in to meet JR on January 8, 1997 - 13 days after the murder. When I realized this, I had to put the book down. Reading about them makes me think I need a shower. By the time of JR and Douglas' meeting, the Ramseys had been on CNN, had hired TEAMS of lawyers AND private investigators, not to mention a public relations team out of DC which handled press releases on their behalf.
.

It isn't surprising that they did that. It had been turned into a major global media event at that point. They would have been overwhelmed had they not made those moves.

 

[Sillybilly]

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[TeaTime]

Except the cops and technicians who photographed it.


PATSY RAMSEY: Right. The white Volvo again in 103. I don't know that one. There is a van.

TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. The Volvo, Priscilla's Volvo in photo 103 that -- if you count each car, each
car, the one, two, third car up on the right side of the street, and the van is the third car up on the left side of the street.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right.

-----


Even if John was reading his mail and looking for a van its certainly not the only thing he was doing to fill that time. He had a basement to rearrange.


It isn't surprising that they did that. It had been turned into a major global media event at that point. They would have been overwhelmed had they not made those moves.

You mean they would have been interrogated had they not made these moves.

 

[Heymom]

You mean they would have been interrogated had they not made these moves.

They still might not have been. Hunter was protecting them almost from the start. The BPD and their gaffes helped Hunter keep the Ramseys out of police interrogation.

 

[TeaTime]

They still might not have been. Hunter was protecting them almost from the start. The BPD and their gaffes helped Hunter keep the Ramseys out of police interrogation.

I keep reading the opinions here that BPD made so many mistakes. But, reading Kolar's book has enlightened me. BPD did a phenomenal job in the investigation. However, I agree that The DA and his office thwarted the investigation with their own incompetence. Hunter was afraid of the courtroom.

The more I read about the Ramseys and their BS, the more disgusted I am. They really are horrible people.

 

[Heymom]

I keep reading the opinions here that BPD made so many mistakes. But, reading Kolar's book has enlightened me. BPD did a phenomenal job in the investigation. However, I agree that The DA and his office thwarted the investigation with their own incompetence. Hunter was afraid of the courtroom.

The more I read about the Ramseys and their BS, the more disgusted I am. They really are horrible people.

I should have clarified. The BPD's main mistakes were made in the initial response, and really much of it wasn't directly their fault, but due to inexperience, low staff on the day after Christmas, etc. There was a deference to the Ramsey's wealth and status which would not have been the case had it been another type of family living in a different part of Boulder. That was wrong and compromised justice. Even after that Boxing Day, when the BPD allowed JR, PR & BR to get away and behind their wall of lawyers, they also allowed Pam Paugh, Patsy's sister, back INTO an active crime scene to collect possessions - another breach of protocol that would NOT have happened had the family lived in a lower-class part of town. Justice was not blind in this case, not blind at all.

Lou Smit also did a world of harm to any possible prosecution of the case. Him and his imaginary stun gun and suitcase-toting intruder! Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.....Down, blood pressure, down!

 

[Duchess518]

I posted this in another thread but it seems appropriate here.


I just read the Death of Innocence by the Ramsey's. I was interested in this book because I believe most of the time when people are lying or hiding soemthing you can pick it up in their speech. Here are two quotes that jump out at me.

TDOI
PAGE 366
Quote by JR
"Many people have speculated that the killer was familiar with the house. Our home had been open to the public a number of times for various charity events and parties.Around two thousand visitors had streamed through our house during the Christmas 1994 Historic Boulder Homes Tour. It would not have been difficult for the future killer to roam through our place as part of one of those groups, even sneaking downstairs for a look at the basement area or upstairs to find JonBenet's room. Our house had been vacant much of the previous summer when we were in Michigan; a trespasser could have entered the house and literally stayed for days, and we wouldn't have known it. And the killer had four hours when we were gone during the late afternoon and evening of the 25th to get a layout of the house if he hasn't done so before then. Or perhaps after we fell asleep he familiarized himself with the house with the aid of a flashlight. A black mag-light type of flashlight was found on the kitchen counter."

If the murder weapon was the flashlight (and if the Ramsey's knew this), why draw attention to it? To me thats like screaming "HEY HERE IT IS!"

TDOI page 368
Quote by JR
"The coroner's report concluded that JonBenet died from asphyxia due to strangulation. Why the massive blow to the head then? The police theory has been, as far as I know, that either Patsy or I woke up in the mimddle of the night, struck JonBenet in a violent rage, and then staged everything else to look like a kidnapping. I've often told friends that if I were trying to stage this, as the police contend, I could have done a much more convincing job."
OH MY GOD. What the hell John?!

What does everyone else think?

 

[kanzz]

I posted this in another thread but it seems appropriate here.


I just read the Death of Innocence by the Ramsey's. I was interested in this book because I believe most of the time when people are lying or hiding soemthing you can pick it up in their speech. Here are two quotes that jump out at me.

TDOI
PAGE 366
Quote by JR
"Many people have speculated that the killer was familiar with the house. Our home had been open to the public a number of times for various charity events and parties.Around two thousand visitors had streamed through our house during the Christmas 1994 Historic Boulder Homes Tour. It would not have been difficult for the future killer to roam through our place as part of one of those groups, even sneaking downstairs for a look at the basement area or upstairs to find JonBenet's room. Our house had been vacant much of the previous summer when we were in Michigan; a trespasser could have entered the house and literally stayed for days, and we wouldn't have known it. And the killer had four hours when we were gone during the late afternoon and evening of the 25th to get a layout of the house if he hasn't done so before then. Or perhaps after we fell asleep he familiarized himself with the house with the aid of a flashlight. A black mag-light type of flashlight was found on the kitchen counter."

If the murder weapon was the flashlight (and if the Ramsey's knew this), why draw attention to it? To me thats like screaming "HEY HERE IT IS!"

TDOI page 368
Quote by JR
"The coroner's report concluded that JonBenet died from asphyxia due to strangulation. Why the massive blow to the head then? The police theory has been, as far as I know, that either Patsy or I woke up in the mimddle of the night, struck JonBenet in a violent rage, and then staged everything else to look like a kidnapping. I've often told friends that if I were trying to stage this, as the police contend, I could have done a much more convincing job."
OH MY GOD. What the hell John?!

What does everyone else think?

.

Your nearly identical post of less than 24 hrs ago is still active on the "No Intruder" thread. Not sure why you are posting this twice as it only causes some confusion, imo.

 

[kanzz]

I keep reading the opinions here that BPD made so many mistakes. But, reading Kolar's book has enlightened me. BPD did a phenomenal job in the investigation. However, I agree that The DA and his office thwarted the investigation with their own incompetence. Hunter was afraid of the courtroom.

The more I read about the Ramseys and their BS, the more disgusted I am. They really are horrible people.

They did great in the long term, but in the critical First 48, they blew it imo. We can talk about inexperience and low staffing, but we wouldn't excuse it in a hospital ER (my frame of reference), so I have difficulty excusing it in this case. It was only one case, not a multitude of victims or a multitude of cases all on the same day. If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution. I get it that Kolar was respectful of his former colleagues, but there were glaring gaps and gaffes in this investigation early on.

 

[Scandigirl]

As an RN, I don't really trust anything that Beuf said. He mixes his words and contradicts himself. Maybe he thinks only lay people would have heard him or he didn't reqlize there would have been a transcript to analyze. But what he said makes no sense to me.
http://jfjbr.tripod.com/truth/bynum.html




Sorry to butt in, and if this appears out of sequence in the discussion- I'm just trying to catch up! I've always felt that there's something more going on somehow regarding Dr Beuf. I can't fully put my finger on it...

Has anyone else seen a brief video clip of Jonbenet being interviewed at one of her pageants, where she says "My name is Jonbenet Ramsey, and I'm five and a half"? She's asked what she would like to be when she grows up, and she replies "a paediatrician". This made me raise my eyebrows, as it must have been an answer coached into her by Patsy?

Any five year old would surely just say a doctor or a nurse, if answering themselves? Why would Patsy coach her to say something so specific? All I can say is that it stood out to me, as.... odd, inappropriate, deliberate?

Also, Patsy chose a childhood photo of Burke for the family album, with the caption (as if written by him): "This is me and the doctor". Again, I can't fully explain why, but this stood out to me as...odd? Not many parents would choose a photo of a doctor's visit, and mention "the doctor" in a caption, out of loads of childhood photos to choose from?

I don't know what any of this implies (maybe nothing!)- just yet another unusual aspect in this case to me. It seems like the doctor was very significant in some way to Patsy... Was this simply because he was a family friend, who knows?
SAWYER: But what about those reports that JonBenet's pediatrician, Dr Beuf, saw JonBenet 30 times in three years?
BEUF: Before your call, I sat down with her chart and counted. It was 27 times.
SAWYER: This is the first time Dr Beuf has gone over his records publicly.
And is that unusual to see a child that many times?
BEUF: Not with the kinds of problems which this child had. The majority of them were for sinus infections and for colds.
SAWYER: And by majority you mean?
BEUF: Probably 20 of the lot. I counted three in which she'd complained of some pain in urination. And the rest of them were cold, strep throats, sinus infections.
SAWYER: So many he said, there was some concern about asthma.
How many times did you give her a vaginal examination?
BEUF: Well, it was five or six times in that three year period.
SAWYER: We asked him to specifically review all notes that might pertain. He agreed, citing the frenzy of uninformed speculation. Be warned, these are a doctor's clinical notes about a young patient.
September 1993 a call about vaginal redness, possibly associated with recent diarrhea.
April 1994 a visit about a problem perhaps related to the use of bubble bath, which can be an irritant.
October 1994 a routine physical. No problems noted, though some indication of occasional bedwetting. Dr Beuf says 20 percent to 25 percent of children that age wet the bed.
March 1995 abdominal pain and fever. Tests and exam showed no problem.
August 1996 another routine physical with a vaginal exam. The doctor said everything checked out as normal. We asked what he made of this number of complaints?
Would that be unusual?
BEUF: For a child that age, certainly not. They don't wipe themselves very well after they urinate. And it's something which usually is curable by having them take plain water baths or learning to wipe better. But if you have 4yo kids, you know how hard that is. The amount of vaginitis which I saw on the child was totally consistent with little girls her age.
SAWYER: If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?
BEUF: Probably. I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia.
SAWYER: Did you see in any of these examinations any sign of possible sexual abuse?
BEUF: No, and I certainly would have reported it to the social service people if I had. That's something that all of us in pediatrics are very acutely aware of.
(BBM)

So, here's why it doesn't make sense:
First he says he says he performed a vag exam 5 or 6 times in a 3 year period. This would be an incredible number of times for anyone who is not expecting a baby or with some other OB/GYN issue, let alone a child.
Then, Sawyer asks him, "If there had been an abrasion involving the hymen, you would have seen it?" and he replies, "Probably."
But then he states, "I can't say absolutely for sure because you don't do a speculum exam on a child that young at least unless it's under anesthesia."
Well, which is it, doctor? You can't have it both ways.
My guess is that he never actually performed a vag exam. I think that is an outright lie. Although, it can be done on a child without anesthesia using an otoscope (ear scope), and he should definitely know that.
At best, he might have done a visual exam of her vulva. But, unless he used some kind of an instrument, he never performed a vag exam.
The bottom line for me is this - this record is filled with red flags and he did not do his due diligence. He either turned a blind eye to the problems right before his face or he was negligent. Of course, there is another explanation - some kind of influence kept the dirty truth out of those medical records and his failure to report will forever keep that secret.

Sorry to butt in, and if this appears out of sequence in the thread- I'm just trying to catch up! I've always thought there was something vaguely odd about Dr Beuf, in relation to the Ramseys- something I can't put my finger on.

Has anyone see the clip of Jonbenet being interviewed in one of her pageants, where she says: "My name is Jonbenet Ramsey, and I'm five and a half"? She is asked what she wants to be when she grows up, and she replies: "a paediatrician". This stood out to me, as... odd, inappropriate?

I think most five year olds would say "a doctor", or "a nurse", if it was their own response? I think to say "paediatrician" seems deliberately coached by Patsy. But, why would Patsy want to coach such a specific answer?

Also, Patsy put a photo of a very young Burke in the family album, with a caption underneath (as if written by him): "That's me and the doctor". Again, it seemed an oddly specific thing to select for a family album... Out of probably dozens of childhood photos, she chooses one of a visit to "the doctor", and has that specifically written in a caption?

I don't know if I'm the only one who finds this... unusual? It makes me feel that "the doctor" might have had some kind of significance to Patsy in some way- but, is this simply because he's a family friend? None of this proves anything, of course, it's just yet another thing in this case that seems vaguely suspicious to me, in a way that I can't quite explain properly. Jmo.

 

[Heymom]

Sorry to butt in, and if this appears out of sequence in the thread- I'm just trying to catch up! I've always thought there was something vaguely odd about Dr Beuf, in relation to the Ramseys- something I can't put my finger on.

Has anyone see the clip of Jonbenet being interviewed in one of her pageants, where she says: "My name is Jonbenet Ramsey, and I'm five and a half"? She is asked what she wants to be when she grows up, and she replies: "a paediatrician". This stood out to me, as... odd, inappropriate?

I think most five year olds would say "a doctor", or "a nurse", if it was their own response? I think to say "paediatrician" seems deliberately coached by Patsy. But, why would Patsy want to coach such a specific answer?

Also, Patsy put a photo of a very young Burke in the family album, with a caption underneath (as if written by him): "That's me and the doctor". Again, it seemed an oddly specific thing to select for a family album... Out of probably dozens of childhood photos, she chooses one of a visit to "the doctor", and has that specifically written in a caption?

I don't know if I'm the only one who finds this... unusual? It makes me feel that "the doctor" might have had some kind of significance to Patsy in some way- but, is this simply because he's a family friend? None of this proves anything, of course, it's just yet another thing in this case that seems vaguely suspicious to me, in a way that I can't quite explain properly. Jmo.

I think it's because JR & PR also socialized with the Dr. and his wife. Improper relationships seem to be a sort of specialty with the Ramsey family. They were fine with having their pediatrician over for dinner parties, etc. but threw their supposed best friends, the Whites, under the bus immediately, as in, the day JB was found. AFAIK, they never cast suspicion on Dr. Beuf or his family, but they sure did cast it on the Whites.

 

[PositiveLight]

They did great in the long term, but in the critical First 48, they blew it imo. We can talk about inexperience and low staffing, but we wouldn't excuse it in a hospital ER (my frame of reference), so I have difficulty excusing it in this case. It was only one case, not a multitude of victims or a multitude of cases all on the same day. If only they had secured the crime scene from the beginning and moved everyone out of that house immediately, perhaps there would have been resolution. I get it that Kolar was respectful of his former colleagues, but there were glaring gaps and gaffes in this investigation early on.

I totally agree. The crime scene was compromised before the cops got there due to the Ramsey's calling everyone over. Who in the hell would do that after reading the RN? No one would. Except the Ramsey's. Money and status kept this case from being solved in the first 24 hours. And there was absolutely NO reason Pam should have been allowed into the home! They were wealthy! They could afford new freaking outfits for the funeral. Imho there was no excuse for the lack of proper investigation. Sickening to me. Poor little JonBenet.

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[singularity]

You mean they would have been interrogated had they not made these moves.

I wasn't defending their stonewalling tactics. I'm just not surprised that they hired all those people considering what the case was turning into.

IMO they could have avoided an interrogation even without making those moves. Look at who they were dealing with.