Day 5 The John, Patsy and Burke's behavior/ The 12 days of JonBenet

[kanzz]

If the bladder is full then it takes muscle control to stop urination. This is not just a faint, it's coupled with a serious brain injury, and I think incontinence is likely to occur. Spitz even said she was brain dead.

I'm sorry, but Spitz is incorrect. She was not immediately "brain dead". She couldn't have been. If she had been, she would not have been able to breathe, so her heart couldn't have continued to beat, and therefore she would not have had any kind of a bleed in her head.

By medical definition, to be brain dead means that you are basically dead in the absence of any machines to support life. "Brain dead" is legally dead - it's the complete and total absence of brain activity, which would mean there's nothing to make the lungs breathe or the heart beat. We do not consciously control our bladders. If if we are unconscious, there might or might not be incontinence.

 

[kanzz]

Very true...otherwise boxing and MMA would be a very messy and embarrassing sport.

Bladder and bowel release doesn't happen until death has occurred.

Oh, Afterimage, that was great! I got tears from LOL so hard.

I'll add this tidbit - we do sometimes see involuntary urination with Grand Mal siezure. It help used to help us somewhat in separating the real thing from those who were just seeking the benzodiazepines, but some people are quite willing to pee their pants any more.

 

[Tortoise]

I'm sorry, but Spitz is incorrect. She was not immediately "brain dead". She couldn't have been. If she had been, she would not have been able to breathe, so her heart couldn't have continued to beat, and therefore she would not have had any kind of a bleed in her head.

By medical definition, to be brain dead means that you are basically dead in the absence of any machines to support life. "Brain dead" is legally dead - it's the complete and total absence of brain activity, which would mean there's nothing to make the lungs breathe or the heart beat. We do not consciously control our bladders. If if we are unconscious, there might or might not be incontinence.

Now we're getting into controversial territory. I followed the Pistorius case and Reeva Steenkamp sustained a shot through the brain. Her heart was still beating minutes later, causing arterial bleeding through the corridors and stair walls, and that is some while after she had been shot. I think the heart is able to beat independently of the brain, for in the region of about 10 minutes.

Even if JonBenet was not brain dead, she was critically brain damaged and I would be surprised if the body in survival mode would retain continence. Particularly a little girl who regularly let her bladder go in her sleep and also in the month of her death at school, where she would probably try to resist it if she could.

 

[Tortoise]

In the case you cite, the victim was not yet brain dead. She was still breathing and her heart was still beating... not independent of the brain, but because she did still have some brain function. Probably because she had not yet bled to death. The heart cannot beat independently of the brain without some kind of mechanical electrical stimulation, that much I know.

I still think it is fairly obvious that she lost control of her bladder when she was ligature strangled. The cord handle was at the back of the neck, the angle was nearly even (indicating she was probably lying on the floor), her garments were wet on the front, and the carpet was wet.

Reeva was brain dead. She did not continue to breathe after she was shot.

The heart has its own pacemaker independent of the brain. As long as it has oxygen, it continues to beat. The heart could actually be removed from the body, placed in saline solution, given oxygen, and still continue to beat. This is why although the brain is dead, the heart continues to beat.[h=3]Brain Death | Welcome to Community Services | Life Alliance Organ ...[/h]surgery.med.miami.edu/laora/community-services/brain-death

 

[kanzz]

Now we're getting into controversial territory. I followed the Pistorius case and Reeva Steenkamp sustained a shot through the brain. Her heart was still beating minutes later, causing arterial bleeding through the corridors and stair walls, and that is some while after she had been shot. I think the heart is able to beat independently of the brain, for in the region of about 10 minutes.

Even if JonBenet was not brain dead, she was critically brain damaged and I would be surprised if the body in survival mode would retain continence. Particularly a little girl who regularly let her bladder go in her sleep and also in the month of her death at school, where she would probably try to resist it if she could.

In the case you cite, the victim was not yet brain dead. She was still breathing and her heart was still beating... not independent of the brain, but because she did still have some brain function. Probably because she had not yet bled to death. The heart cannot beat fully independently of the brain without some kind of mechanical electrical stimulation. Once breathing stops, the rhythm of the heart becomes erratic and eventually stops.

I still think it is fairly obvious that she lost control of her bladder when she was ligature strangled. The cord handle was at the back of the neck, the angle was nearly even (indicating she was probably lying on the floor), her garments were wet on the front, and the carpet was wet.

 

[Tortoise]

How do we know, just for argument's sake, that JonBenet was not hit on the head outside the wine cellar, left there for a short while, on her tummy, urinated and then was strangled in that same spot?

 

[Tortoise]

How did that happen lol? I replied to your post before it was posted according to my screen :giggle:

 

[Tortoise]

Reeva was brain dead. She did not continue to breathe after she was shot.

BTW this was confirmed by the pathologists for both teams, being as there was no blood in her airways.

 

[kanzz]

Reeva was brain dead. She did not continue to breathe after she was shot.

I misunderstood when you said, "Her heart was still beating minutes later, causing arterial bleeding through the corridors and stair walls, and that is some while after she had been shot." I thought you meant that she had moved herself, but apparently Pistorius carried her. Got it.

 

[Userid]

How do we know, just for argument's sake, that JonBenet was not hit on the head outside the wine cellar, left there for a short while, on her tummy, urinated and then was strangled in that same spot?

Good question, Tortoise. I think that's very possible. What do you think of the blood-curdling scream the neighbors heard around midnight? Do you think it came from JBR while she was in the basement?

I am a RDI, but not necessarily a BDI. This may sound far-fetched, but sometimes I wonder if the sexual assault was used as a part of corporal punishment for the bed-wetting. This was performed in the basement (in the boiler room). JBR let out a scream while it occurred, which resulted in PR hitting her in the head to silence her. Thinking she had just killed her daughter with the blow, PR panics and fashions the garrote as a way to divert attention away from the head blow. She also re-dresses JBR in the faint hope to obscure the sexual assault. Just brainstorming.

 

[kanzz]

How do we know, just for argument's sake, that JonBenet was not hit on the head outside the wine cellar, left there for a short while, on her tummy, urinated and then was strangled in that same spot?

Hmm.. It's a valid argument as far as I'm concerned. It's possible. Couldn't rule it out. I think she would have been upright (or at least her head was) when the blow occurred.

 

[kanzz]

How did that happen lol? I replied to your post before it was posted according to my screen :giggle:

Here's what happened -- You're Too Fast For Me! :laughing:

I saw that I had a gaffe in my post, so I quickly deleted, fixed it, and reposted. You replied to the one with the gaffe. haha

 

[singularity]

How do we know, just for argument's sake, that JonBenet was not hit on the head outside the wine cellar, left there for a short while, on her tummy, urinated and then was strangled in that same spot?

We don't know for sure but the state of the rooms on the second floor and Patsy's slip up about blood when not even being asked about any.....



TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in 125.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging over the door?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind of tucked back.

TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls the drapery, it pulls it back.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood or anything, do you?

TOM HANEY: We skipped ahead to 134. We can come back to these, but other than what we talked about on 122, three and four, five, you don't have any thoughts at this time from what you have noticed?

PATSY RAMSEY: No, not unless you know the bag (inaudible).

TOM HANEY: We will look at that later.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is Barbara's coat hanging there.

TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 134.

.....pretty much tells us where the initial attack started. Haney should've been horse whipped for ignoring her statement.

 

[Tortoise]

Good question, Tortoise. I think that's very possible. What do you think of the blood-curdling scream the neighbors heard around midnight? Do you think it came from JBR while she was in the basement?

I am a RDI, but not necessarily a BDI. This may sound far-fetched, but sometimes I wonder if the sexual assault was used as a part of corporal punishment for the bed-wetting. This was performed in the basement (in the boiler room). JBR let out a scream while it occurred, which resulted in PR hitting her in the head to silence her. Thinking she had just killed her daughter with the blow, PR panics and fashions the garrote as a way to divert attention away from the head blow. She also re-dresses JBR in the faint hope to obscure the sexual assault. Just brainstorming.

Was there a description of the scream? ie did the neighbour say it was a child's scream, do you know?

All I'm at so far, is John and Patsy did the strangulation. John did it and Patsy was cutting the cord and tape, assisting. I haven't firmed up a theory for the head blow or the vaginal penetration, but I do believe this crime was a complete cover up for sexual molestation. I'll get there in the end, just have loads more reading to do.

 

[Userid]

Was there a description of the scream? ie did the neighbour say it was a child's scream, do you know?

All I'm at so far, is John and Patsy did the strangulation. John did it and Patsy was cutting the cord and tape, assisting. I haven't firmed up a theory for the head blow or the vaginal penetration, but I do believe this crime was a complete cover up for sexual molestation. I'll get there in the end, just have loads more reading to do.

The only description I know of is that it was "beyond a normal scream" that was extremely loud, but was suddenly silenced.

I agree that perhaps the sexual assault was to cover up for prolonged sexual assault (i.e. over years).

EDIT: I found this on the scream (scroll down a little): http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682525/What Neighbors Reported#EarlyMorningScream

 

[Tortoise]

We don't know for sure but the state of the rooms on the second floor and Patsy's slip up about blood when not even being asked about any.....



TRIP DEMUTH: Let me ask you about this in 125.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is the (inaudible).

TRIP DEMUTH: Is that unusual to be hanging over the door?

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. Usually they are kind of tucked back.

TRIP DEMUTH: Five and four.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

TOM HANEY: That is the material that pulls the drapery, it pulls it back.

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I don't see any blood or anything, do you?

TOM HANEY: We skipped ahead to 134. We can come back to these, but other than what we talked about on 122, three and four, five, you don't have any thoughts at this time from what you have noticed?

PATSY RAMSEY: No, not unless you know the bag (inaudible).

TOM HANEY: We will look at that later.

PATSY RAMSEY: That is Barbara's coat hanging there.

TRIP DEMUTH: That is in photo 134.

.....pretty much tells us where the initial attack started. Haney should've been horse whipped for ignoring her statement.

I take most things Patsy said with skepticism and a pinch of salt. She was acting the part of ignorance. 'where did he do it, was it in her bedroom, did she bleed?'

 

[singularity]

This scream may not even exist. The person who heard it later changed her story to saying she might have imagined it. On the surface it may seem significant and help with the timeline, it has red herring potential written all over it.

 

[singularity]

I take most things Patsy said with skepticism and a pinch of salt. She was acting the part of ignorance. 'where did he do it, was it in her bedroom, did she bleed?'

Obviously these people are not the seekers of truth but if you don't take anything she says seriously, how can you possibly make heads or tails of anything in the case? As far as Ramsey statements go, most of the substance comes from Patsy.

If you eliminate the 'interrogations' from the case, very, very little info is left.

 

[Tortoise]

Obviously these people are not the seekers of truth but if you don't take anything she says seriously, how can you possibly make heads or tails of anything in the case? As far as Ramsey statements go, most of the substance comes from Patsy.

If you eliminate the 'interrogations' from the case, very, very little info is left.

I don't eliminate what she says, I look beneath it and through it, and try to identify where she is obfuscating and where she's not.

That is the beauty of Statement Analysis.

 

[Tortoise]

The only description I know of is that it was "beyond a normal scream" that was extremely loud, but was suddenly silenced.

I agree that perhaps the sexual assault was to cover up for prolonged sexual assault (i.e. over years).

EDIT: I found this on the scream (scroll down a little): http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682525/What Neighbors Reported#EarlyMorningScream

So it was reported to be a child's scream.

I don't want to go on again about the Pistorius case, but there is a remarkable parallel here. Neighbours living furthest away (you can't even call them neighbours they were so distant) heard screams at 3am, and those next door to the shooting heard no screams, the gun shots woke them up. Having studied the case and discussed it so I know it upside down and inside out, I have learned that what you can hear has nothing to do with how close you are to the scream, it has to do with air currents and sound paths and ground conditions specific to the exact time in question. It can't even be replicated to test it on a different night.

I'm inclined to think in this case she most likely did hear a scream and doubts crept in because she was in a sleepy state and no one else heard it.