DC - Savvas Savopoulos, family & Veralicia Figueroa murdered; Daron Wint Arrested #18

[SpanishInquisition]

Kind of puts to bed the $40,000 already being expected if the gang planned to spend the night from the beginning. (Otherwise, why not just show up at the expected drop-off time?) I hadn't thought about how quickly SS called JW after arriving home (based on JW's text response) - ITA that makes it seem more likely this was the plan all along, not a botched burglary. You guys have made me change my mind on that. Thanks CrimeNeverPays and SpanishInquisition.

I do think at least some of that money was expected that week and it was an adjustment to something already arranged rather than something entirely new and it being part of something in the works was how they were able to get $40K instead of the $40K hitting the bank manager completely out of blue the next morning and immediately providing that amount of cash without any real prior notice. It could for instance have been $10K on Friday that was switched to $40K on Thursday. It's not something mutually exclusive and in fact knowledge of cash transactions would be a motive, where you could know someone is going to be getting a bunch of cash within a certain week but you wouldn't know the exact day and time of it. This also may have been something recurring as despite NG saying she didn't know the family had done cash drops previously, she also didn't know about the studio opening until AS told her about it the week before when recruiting her to work related to it as she didn't get told things she didn't need to know. If this was planned - which I think it was - they had to know that not only could SS get lots of cash but that SS could get it home delivered as the home delivery was instrumental to pulling it off. I don't think this was SS's first rodeo dealing with large sums of cash and because of that, I think that's how he was able to get $40K cash within an hour of the bank opening. JW - without any criminal involvement - may have been involved in other cash drops and bragged about that where whoever did this got word of that and would know lots of cash could be dropped off at the home without requiring AS or SS to sign for it in person and that the cash drops happen with some frequency.

 

[Bootsctr]

Here's an important point in this article IMO

DNA testing on numerous pieces of physical evidence inside the home, including duct tape and a baseball bat, has not been completed, Owens said.

Now don't everyone fuss at me cause it's not processed, I warned ya.

But, but, they processed the pizza so fast, why not the duct tape and baseball bat too?

 

[rkf]

I just don't see it as all that methodical or well planned out. The cops knew who DW was and where he was within days. A methodical planner does not eat pizza and leave the crusts laying around. A planner would have used enough accelerant to totally burn all of the evidence in the home and the car. If it was truly an organized ring they would have taken some of those cars, filled them with expensive art and collectibles and they would have been in a warehouse or a barge out of the country before daylight.

He made so many silly errors and miscalculations that I cannot agree it was methodically planned out. He is on video exiting the stolen Porsche. :doh:

I don't think it was DW that 'planned' the ransom drop. I think it was SS's idea. He was trying to buy his way out of danger by negotiating with this idiotic monster. I think DW was expecting to find loads of cash and jewels in the safe. And I don't think there was that much in there. I think they were an active, modern family that spent their money on private schools, their jet, their ranch, their family vacations, their businesses. And NOT on diamonds or Rolexes. I think DW was very disappointed and SS needed to calm his and make a plan to bring in some ransom money.

What do you think DW planned when he arrived that afternoon? Do you think he knew people would be home? Did he plan to kill them all along? Did he come to steal or to torture? For some reason I have a hard time thinking the original plan involved both, but one would be used to obtain the other. It sounds like the torture of PS went beyond what was necessary to get the adults to comply, so that makes me think it was a primary motivation for the crime, but maybe it's just another day at the office for DW.

I had said much earlier that I thought the ransom might have been SS' idea, but then why would DW come to the house in the middle of the day when people were there if he just wanted to grab cash and jewels? Even if he wasn't sure people would be there, when VF answered the door, it was already more complicated, so he could have aborted.

Meant to add that this could have been a methodically planned crime for DW and his cronies, not for smart criminals. Or someone with a bit more intelligence may have planned the crime, but DW made a bunch of mistakes without the "boss" there to direct him. If he got hungry or AS convinced him to order pizza, that may not have been a contingency DW had the skills to manage on his own. It would be a bad idea, not to mention embarrassing, to have to call "the brains" on the phone during the crime to ask him/her if it was okay to let the victims order pizza. Unless "the brains" was someone the victims already had a reason to contact. Even then, I don't think anyone outside the house (or inside) would be able to control how DW behaved with much success.

 

[katydid23]

That's what I was thinking because the affidavit is used at trial (and in the prelim). We saw the defense used it as a factual document, since they sprung that "gotcha" on Owens. I understand the exact time isn't necessary for the warrants and it didn't matter regarding holding DW for trial. One thing that a few people have mentioned, that I keep forgetting, is that we have to read the docs very literally, paying close attention to when LE says a witness states something vs. LE averring it. That text is a good example because of how LE says the witness stated the time, but LE never says that is the time. I find it odd that they wouldn't note that the actual time was xyz, but maybe they include as few facts as possible so they don't get boxed in at trial. I think when the affiant eventually does state what s/he believes in asking for the warrant, s/he would need to have reasons for that belief. I've assumed that belief was in large part due to the statements given by the witnesses in the affidavit, but maybe it's due to information they didn't include and LE knows the reader (judge?) will assume the conclusion is based on the information given in the affidavit. Maybe a little of each. It's really interesting to me how little fact or evidence is actually included in the affidavit.

BBM= BINGO :bullseye:

That is the key thing in a warrant because the courts are trying to PROTECT THE CITIZENS from the police. It would be awful if the cops could just seize your car and laptop because they were suspicious of something you said or did. The courts have set it up so the cops cannot go on fishing expeditions. They need SWORN STATEMENTS from citizens that would uphold the need for a warrant to investigate someone more fully. That's why the cops used the witnesses statement and not their own. Because the exact time does not matter in terms of obtaining a warrant.

 

[atthelake]

I think it started earlier too. All these guessestimations have my timeline skewed up to the nth degree.

Of course 5:56 p.m. could have been when Mr. S arrived at the home and maybe something got slammed then that caused the system to detect glass being broken.

It just makes me sick to think what this family suffered and endured many hours and through the night.

Good point I had not thought of even with many WS ers saying other situations can set off that .

 

[Millhouse]

Touch DNA doesn’t require you to see anything, or any blood or semen at all. It only requires seven or eight cells from the outermost layer of our skin.

Here’s how it works: Investigators recover cells from the scene, then use a process called polymerase chain reaction (PCR) to make lots of copies of the genes. Next, scientists mix in fluorescent compounds that attach themselves to 13 specific locations on the DNA and give a highly specific genetic portrait of that person. The whole process takes a few days, and forensic labs are often backed up analyzing data from other cases.

These 13 locations were carefully chosen because they are highly variable between people and do not give away any specific information, such as race, gender, personal health or genetic disease. The reason: authorities don’t want personal health information being used for law-enforcement purposes, such as interrogations. The chance of DNA profiles from two different people having the same genetic signature is vanishingly small.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/experts-touch-dna-jonbenet-ramsey/

Oh, PCR... gives me flashbacks to my days working in a neuroscience lab!

Touch DNA can last for a while, but it is highly variable how long it can last for, and it is very susceptible to the conditions. While it could be from someone who touched it in China, this seems like an unlikely scenario. DNA easily breaks down in heat or humidity, and can be easily contaminated. It seems like they had a decent sample to test if they know it is a 3rd person, which makes me think it's unlikely it's as far off of a sample as someone packing the vest in China. It's likely not a family member, as I think they would be able to tell that profile compared to SS's DNA that was also on there, and also may rule out a DW sibling. Who knows where DW got the vest- if it was actually his, it seems likely it's someone who he knows or may have been involved, but if it was at the home, then maybe it belongs to someone who recently wore it while working there. Just all speculation, of course...

I'm kind of combining my own DNA knowledge with web information... some information here: http://www.forensicmag.com/articles...-literature-help-answer-some-common-questions

 

[katydid23]

I take serious issue with the 6 PM time as I can't imagine why AS on her own volition would call SS to come home and babysit and throw a monkey-wrench in the already down-to-the-wire preparations for the grand opening so that she can go about town (which seems to be how it's described)...and why SS would agree to that. I could see a ruse used under duress like what we already heard about going to the hospital as that would be justification for SS to stop what he's doing and come home, but other than due to some real or faked emergency I can't see why AS would have called SS to come home early when he only had that evening and the next day left to prepare. I could for instance see a ruse of AS saying she needed to drive VF or someone else to the hospital as a reason for SS to come home early and babysit, but not so that AS could do something like go shopping.

I agree. It makes no sense that AS would call him to come home from a work deadline so she could go out---especially while her 10 yr old is still too ill to return to school.

 

[katydid23]

The problem with JW vs DW is that any forensic evidence found in the house, cars, on the vest, etc., can be explained away because JW had access to the home, garage and cars through his job. Unless his DNA was found on the pizza or something else that was only present during the crime, JW's fingerprints would be expected in the crime scenes. As long as JW could say "Oh, yeah, AS asked me to go up to PS' room to bring down a box from his closet. I stopped and used his bathroom" LE can't use any forensic evidence to prove JW was involved in the crime. If DW isn't talking, LE would have to build an air-tight circumstantial case against JW. If JW participated in the crime but didn't touch the murder weapons or the pizza, what evidence would put him at the scene? If he never entered the main house during the crime, it would be even harder to prove he was working with DW. LE would have to prove that JW and DW had the opportunity and the means to collude, by phone records, SM and/or witness testimony.

I don't believe that because no one else has been arrested, no one else is suspected of involvement by LE. They made it clear yesterday that they think DW didn't commit this crime alone. They didn't tell us directly who they might suspect, but calling JW "something of a mystery man", and bringing him up repeatedly, etc., would be strange if they had cleared him long ago. When Owens tried to say something about DW's brother, the judge stopped it, so we don't know what else they're thinking about him, other than he seemed to be directing the money laundering.

JMO

We couldn't see or hear the testimony so it is hard to tell---but I don't think it was the detectives that were bringing up JW repeatedly. I think it was the defense, grasping at a lifeline.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I just don't see it as all that methodical or well planned out. The cops knew who DW was and where he was within days. A methodical planner does not eat pizza and leave the crusts laying around. A planner would have used enough accelerant to totally burn all of the evidence in the home and the car. If it was truly an organized ring they would have taken some of those cars, filled them with expensive art and collectibles and they would have been in a warehouse or a barge out of the country before daylight.

He made so many silly errors and miscalculations that I cannot agree it was methodically planned out. He is on video exiting the stolen Porsche. :doh:

I don't think it was DW that 'planned' the ransom drop. I think it was SS's idea. He was trying to buy his way out of danger by negotiating with this idiotic monster. I think DW was expecting to find loads of cash and jewels in the safe. And I don't think there was that much in there. I think they were an active, modern family that spent their money on private schools, their jet, their ranch, their family vacations, their businesses. And NOT on diamonds or Rolexes. I think DW was very disappointed and SS needed to calm his and make a plan to bring in some ransom money.

That it was planned out doesn't mean that DW was the mastermind. This actually has been as much as admitted to by DW's former lawyer. Someone else planned it and DW botched it. That would be a very narrow window to cook up the plan as you've got no more than 2 1/2 hours to ransack the entire 10,000 square foot house (with SS arriving sometime later during this 2 1/2 hours), decide you want more, have SS come up with a plan sometime during this, have DW et all agree to this new plan and start executing it. It could be way shorter than that on the back end depending on how long it took JW to respond to SS's text, which the longer the response time was there the less time there would be to come up with this brand new sleepover bank plan and the same also goes for how much later after 6 PM that SS arrived home that cuts down plan creation time on the front end.

 

[rkf]

:yeahthat: Weird scenario thrown into the mix. I was thinking he almost made it seem like a girls night out or something at first.

And the delivery of the $40K from VA to the home in DC when it was going to be taken back to VA on Friday...

It was delivered from MD to DC, but I thought something similar - why would SS want to have $40,000 at his house on Thursday when he could have had JW bring it from MD to the dojo on Friday morning? Why the extra trip on Thursday (if anyone thinks the $40,000 was pre-planned for an "auction".)

 

[rkf]

We couldn't see or hear the testimony so it is hard to tell---but I don't think it was the detectives that were bring up JW repeatedly. I think it was the defense, grasping at a lifeline.

I still don't see how whether JW is involved or not has any bearing on DW's guilt. The best they could do is say DW and JW did the crime together, but that doesn't help DW avoid going to trial or being found guilty for felony murder. What is the point of bringing up JW at all from the defense's perspective? They don't seem to be saying JW did the crime instead of DW.

 

[Skigirl]

The part about VF usually leaving at 3 came from NG, right? I think it is possible that she doesn't know what she is talking about.

But assuming she does, and VF usually leaves at 3, I can see a few reasons why she would still be there at 6 on that particular day.
(1) she was somewhere else that AM and started a few hours late
(2) the house was a bit messier than usual and cleaning took longer (perhaps there had been a recent event at the house and thus extra clean up)
(3) there was some prep work/extra cleaning to do for an upcoming event (the dojo opening, the older daughter graduating from high school)
(4) extra work AS requested be done that day that didn't fall within the normal cleaning duties (cleaning the inside of a refrigerator, washing windows)

I'm just trying to throw out some reasons why VF may have been there at 6 instead of the timeline being off. But these are JMO based on things I have run into with my cleaning services in the past.

BBM -- the Washington Post reported that VF did't go to Chantilly because she didn't want to work late (video at link below).

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...140154-fbf7-11e4-9030-b4732caefe81_story.html

I've read in a couple places that her usual time to leave was 3-3:30:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/dc-mansion...details-mysterious-timeline/story?id=31694233

3:30 is a lot later than 6:00. I guess it's possible that AS asked her to stay, but it seems unlikely since she was at the house because she didn't want to work late...

 

[Paulas88]

Kind of puts to bed the $40,000 already being expected if the gang planned to spend the night from the beginning. (Otherwise, why not just show up at the expected drop-off time?) I hadn't thought about how quickly SS called JW after arriving home (based on JW's text response) - ITA that makes it seem more likely this was the plan all along, not a botched burglary. You guys have made me change my mind on that. Thanks CrimeNeverPays and SpanishInquisition.

Another detail is the fact that NG wasn't working at the home Thursday as she USUALLY did? That would be info gotten only by an insider.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

The problem with JW vs DW is that any forensic evidence found in the house, cars, on the vest, etc., can be explained away because JW had access to the home, garage and cars through his job. Unless his DNA was found on the pizza or something else that was only present during the crime, JW's fingerprints would be expected in the crime scenes. As long as JW could say "Oh, yeah, AS asked me to go up to PS' room to bring down a box from his closet. I stopped and used his bathroom" LE can't use any forensic evidence to prove JW was involved in the crime. If DW isn't talking, LE would have to build an air-tight circumstantial case against JW. If JW participated in the crime but didn't touch the murder weapons or the pizza, what evidence would put him at the scene? If he never entered the main house during the crime, it would be even harder to prove he was working with DW. LE would have to prove that JW and DW had the opportunity and the means to collude, by phone records, SM and/or witness testimony.

I don't believe that because no one else has been arrested, no one else is suspected of involvement by LE. They made it clear yesterday that they think DW didn't commit this crime alone. They didn't tell us directly who they might suspect, but calling JW "something of a mystery man", and bringing him up repeatedly, etc., would be strange if they had cleared him long ago. When Owens tried to say something about DW's brother, the judge stopped it, so we don't know what else they're thinking about him, other than he seemed to be directing the money laundering.

JMO

If JW is involved, he and DW would have had to communicate before, during, and after the crime. LE certainly has all the applicable cell phone records, social media accounts, etc. If they found any communications, between JW and DW, or any of DW's close circle, I believe they would have arrested JW.

Sent from my KFJWI using Tapatalk

 

[katydid23]

What do you think DW planned when he arrived that afternoon? Do you think he knew people would be home? Did he plan to kill them all along? Did he come to steal or to torture? For some reason I have a hard time thinking the original plan involved both, but one would be used to obtain the other. It sounds like the torture of PS went beyond what was necessary to get the adults to comply, so that makes me think it was a primary motivation for the crime, but maybe it's just another day at the office for DW.

I had said much earlier that I thought the ransom might have been SS' idea, but then why would DW come to the house in the middle of the day when people were there if he just wanted to grab cash and jewels? Even if he wasn't sure people would be there, when VF answered the door, it was already more complicated, so he could have aborted.

Meant to add that this could have been a methodically planned crime for DW and his cronies, not for smart criminals. Or someone with a bit more intelligence may have planned the crime, but DW made a bunch of mistakes without the "boss" there to direct him. If he got hungry or AS convinced him to order pizza, that may not have been a contingency DW had the skills to manage on his own. It would be a bad idea, not to mention embarrassing, to have to call "the brains" on the phone during the crime to ask him/her if it was okay to let the victims order pizza. Unless "the brains" was someone the victims already had a reason to contact. Even then, I don't think anyone outside the house (or inside) would be able to control how DW behaved with much success.

I think DW 'planned' to barge into the 'rich ' people's house and come away with diamonds and gold and loads of cash. I am not sure if he planned to kill them, but I would guess probably so, since he was not wearing a mask, AFAIK.

The torture would have seemed unusual, if I had not already heard the vile death threats he made against his 8 yr old sister and against an INFANT. He threatened to stab an infant and bragged about how good he is with knives! And we know he stabbed a man in the neck previously, so he backs up his talk.

I think he needed people in the home so he could access the safes and turn off the alarm system. If no one was home he could not do either of those things.

I don't think there was a 'mastermind' or a boss and he was the one who messed it up. Why did he still have 30kplus when he was arrested? Why wouldn't the mastermind have had a way to get DW out of the neighborhood already? Or a way for DW to leave the crime scene besides the method that left a torched vehicle yards from his home?

I think he ordered pizza because he was hungry. Simple as that. He planned to burn the house down so he thought it wouldn't matter. Idiot.

 

[Skigirl]

[video]http://www.wusa9.com/story/news/local/2015/07/20/daron-wint-due-back-in-court-for-dc-mansion-savopoulos-murders/30403319/ [/video]

So, who is this running past the camera at 1:20 in the video footage of the burning car?

Screenshot

 

[katydid23]

I still don't see how whether JW is involved or not has any bearing on DW's guilt. The best they could do is say DW and JW did the crime together, but that doesn't help DW avoid going to trial or being found guilty for felony murder. What is the point of bringing up JW at all from the defense's perspective? They don't seem to be saying JW did the crime instead of DW.

I think it is a way of tainting the jury pool. No way do they want the jury to think that this brutal crime was DW's idea. They want him to be a 'dumb' worker bee. They want the good looking, middle class, racer wannabe to become the villain here.

 

[BellaVita]

Could that really be possible?

IMO, YES. My reference is Jon Benet Ramsay case.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I still don't see how whether JW is involved or not has any bearing on DW's guilt. The best they could do is say DW and JW did the crime together, but that doesn't help DW avoid going to trial or being found guilty for felony murder. What is the point of bringing up JW at all from the defense's perspective? They don't seem to be saying JW did the crime instead of DW.

Theoretically DW could admit to conspiring to a crime that isn't one of the ones that covered under the DC felony murder statute (what felonies qualify varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which I believe the requirement for DC is that they're 'dangerous' felonies). I think for instance DW could say that he signed up for something like car theft but it became something he didn't sign up for and he didn't kill anyone, so he can't be found guilty of felony murder. They could be going for a combination Ficker/Hanover in challenging the evidence while saying he was just a pawn to something lesser while JW or whoever was the mastermind directing others. I think DW's best hope would be a plea bargain and it could be that what's really going on is they're angling for that.

 

[katydid23]

Theoretically DW could admit to conspiring to a crime that isn't one of the ones that covered under the DC felony murder statute (what felonies qualify varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, which I believe the requirement for DC is that they're 'dangerous' felonies). I think for instance DW could say that he signed up for something like car theft but it became something he didn't sign up for and he didn't kill anyone, so he can't be found guilty of felony murder. They could be going for a combination Ficker/Hanover in challenging the evidence while saying he was just a pawn to something lesser while JW or whoever was the mastermind directing others. I think DW's best hope would be a plea bargain and it could be that what's really going on is they're angling for that.

I am not sure how that would work. If JW brought that money to the home, KNOWING there was a crime in progress, any crime at all, even car theft, he would be an accessory to the ensuing murders. JMO