Dead Folks and Decomp *WARNING: GRAPHIC PHOTOS IN OPENING POST*#2

[RR0004]

Yeah thats true, perhaps there should be a lack of evidence thread. thanks

Gosh knows there must be...lol.

 

[spqr]

Yes, I believe it was the garbage bag and its contents that caused the odor because there was a garbage bag there. I do not believe there was a decomposing human body in that trunk due to lack of evidence.

I also do not believe Tl power washed his garbage before Kc took it and put it in her trunk. It is likely Dr Lee took close up photos of the items in the trash. I have yet to see in my life time a full kitchen garbage bag without food in it. Furthermore there were maggots in the garbage indicating to me that there was food in the garbage. I believe Ga described it as the sound of hamburger frying in a pan.

So in closing, I find it hard to believe that a fatty like substance on a napkin and traces of butric acid caused the odor. Furthermore, I do not assume there was a decomposing body in the trunk to cause the odor due to lack of evidence. Moo

BBM: NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body?
-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body?
-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body?

Because if you have not, you have no valid argument as to whether it was household garbage or not. You would not have any direct knowledge to compare the two. (and before you ask, yes I have on more occasions than I care to remember. And in various stages of decomp.)

Secondly, household garbage/food products, as I have mentioned to YOU before are PROCESSED foods. Preservatives are added. And, NO food that you or anyone else buys at the store would decompose in the manner in which a Human Body would...NONE. Not even the chicken juice as you have stated before. Not the lunch meats...NOTHING.

Third, if you were to have raw meat, i.e steak, chicken, etc...would it rot, yes. Maggots, yes. Similar to human decomp, no. Why you ask, well because the animal has already been killed and cut into EDIBLE parts and the remaining parts art disposed of. A human decomposition event happens the way it does because of the presence of the existing internal body fluids and the chemical reactions with other fluids and tissue. If someone was to kill and process a human in the same manner as cattle for example, you would not have the typical human decopositional event. The seperated tissue would rot and attract maggots but without the totality of all fluids and tissues reacting to one another it wouldn't happen the same.

Nothing else looks like it, smells like it or reacts like it. The closest you can get is a pig...NOT Bacon, Ham, Prosciutto or any other processed pork. So unless KC had a once living WHOLE Pig in her trunk...It was Human Decomp.

 

[spqr]

There would be a release of liquids with decomp. But there is one question that I never wanted to ask...would blood be released as well?

Depends...Once a person dies, the blood does not circulate and therefor does not get oxygenated. It then starts to pool into the lowest part of the body and you get the blue color to that part, while the higher parts just look pale.

The blood then coagulates and becomes more of a solid, not a liquid. For a lack of better description, it gets like gelatin or jello. Solid but spongy if you will. SO to answer your question , but the time the decomp is at the stage of exposing the insides, the blood has already coagulated.

 

[gngr~snap]

Depends...Once a person dies, the blood does not circulate and therefor does not get oxygenated. It then starts to pool into the lowest part of the body and you get the blue color to that part, while the higher parts just look pale.

The blood then coagulates and becomes more of a solid, not a liquid. For a lack of better description, it gets like gelatin or jello. Solid but spongy if you will. SO to answer your question , but the time the decomp is at the stage of exposing the insides, the blood has already coagulated.

BBM~
I'm not sure I agree with this 100%, but you did not say how long after death this occurs so you may very well be corect. I've been in autopsies where blood was drawn from the femoral artery approx 2 days after death and it was still very liquid. The blood NOT coagulating is what helps medical examiners determine cause of death because blood "clots" are found in the lungs, heart and brain. If all the blood was clotted there would no way to determine cause of death when caused by venous thrombosis, pulmonary embolism or blood clots etc... MOO

 

[spqr]

BBM~
I'm not sure I agree with this 100%, but you did not say how long after death this occurs so you may very well be corect. I've been in autopsies where blood was drawn from the femoral artery approx 2 days after death and it was still very liquid. The blood NOT coagulating is what helps medical examiners determine cause of death because blood "clots" are found in the lungs, heart and brain. If all the blood was clotted there would no way to determine cause of death when caused by venous thrombosis, pulmonary embolism or blood clots etc... MOO

I agree 100%...in trying to keep the response to minimums, it is difficult to explain all the circumstances without retyping a text book. As we both know, many factors come into play. There is no "one" catch all answer. I think some are of the idea that there would be 9 pints of blood just pooled on the floor around said person. Again hard to address every possible outcome and all mitigating factors.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[gngr~snap]

I agree 100%...in trying to keep the response to minimums, it is difficult to explain all the circumstances without retyping a text book. As we both know, many factors come into play. There is no "one" catch all answer. I think some are of the idea that there would be 9 pints of blood just pooled on the floor around said person. Again hard to address every possible outcome and all mitigating factors.

Thank you for your reply.

Gotcha! I think people forget that without a heartbeat and blood pressure a dead person cannot actively "bleed". Unless at death there was a break in the skin. Even those wounds tend to only "weep" once the heart ceases. I have forgotten that myself from time to time... I understand what you are saying. Thanks!

 

[JBean]

I watched a Dr G last night where an alcoholic had passed out and fell into a body of water and drowned. They found him the next day and by that time there was absolutely no blood left at all. Dr. G was unable to run a tox screen on the blood which hindered her autopsy. Interestingly, the water slowed down the decomp process, but still and all after one day in the Fl sun, there was no blood left..zero. No trauma or bleeding or anything like that. FWIW.

 

[LambChop]

I watched a Dr G last night where an alcoholic had passed out and fell into a body of water and drowned. They found him the next day and by that time there was absolutely no blood left at all. Dr. G was unable to run a tox screen on the blood which hindered her autopsy. Interestingly, the water slowed down the decomp process, but still and all after one day in the Fl sun, there was no blood left..zero. No trauma or bleeding or anything like that. FWIW.

And this is why we have experts to explain what happens to a body to the jury rather than let people speculate. We rely on them to "educate" us. jmo

 

[gngr~snap]

I would like the jury to use all of their senses as well!

I wonder if "have you ever smelled a dead body?" will be asked to prospective jurors?
What are the chances that at least one of the twelve HAVE? Slim I bet...

 

[TinaD]

BBM: NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body?
-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body?
-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body?

Because if you have not, you have no valid argument as to whether it was household garbage or not. You would not have any direct knowledge to compare the two. (and before you ask, yes I have on more occasions than I care to remember. And in various stages of decomp.)

Secondly, household garbage/food products, as I have mentioned to YOU before are PROCESSED foods. Preservatives are added. And, NO food that you or anyone else buys at the store would decompose in the manner in which a Human Body would...NONE. Not even the chicken juice as you have stated before. Not the lunch meats...NOTHING.

Third, if you were to have raw meat, i.e steak, chicken, etc...would it rot, yes. Maggots, yes. Similar to human decomp, no. Why you ask, well because the animal has already been killed and cut into EDIBLE parts and the remaining parts art disposed of. A human decomposition event happens the way it does because of the presence of the existing internal body fluids and the chemical reactions with other fluids and tissue. If someone was to kill and process a human in the same manner as cattle for example, you would not have the typical human decopositional event. The seperated tissue would rot and attract maggots but without the totality of all fluids and tissues reacting to one another it wouldn't happen the same.

Nothing else looks like it, smells like it or reacts like it. The closest you can get is a pig...NOT Bacon, Ham, Prosciutto or any other processed pork. So unless KC had a once living WHOLE Pig in her trunk...It was Human Decomp.

I just want to say thanks for this post - you have explained so eloquently what many have been trying to say, and have at times been, it seems deliberately, misunderstood or misinterpreted. Any time the "bacon" theory is raised, your post should be required reading!

 

[notthatsmart]

BBM: NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body?
-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body?
-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body?

Because if you have not, you have no valid argument as to whether it was household garbage or not. You would not have any direct knowledge to compare the two. (and before you ask, yes I have on more occasions than I care to remember. And in various stages of decomp.)

Secondly, household garbage/food products, as I have mentioned to YOU before are PROCESSED foods. Preservatives are added. And, NO food that you or anyone else buys at the store would decompose in the manner in which a Human Body would...NONE. Not even the chicken juice as you have stated before. Not the lunch meats...NOTHING.

Third, if you were to have raw meat, i.e steak, chicken, etc...would it rot, yes. Maggots, yes. Similar to human decomp, no. Why you ask, well because the animal has already been killed and cut into EDIBLE parts and the remaining parts art disposed of. A human decomposition event happens the way it does because of the presence of the existing internal body fluids and the chemical reactions with other fluids and tissue. If someone was to kill and process a human in the same manner as cattle for example, you would not have the typical human decopositional event. The seperated tissue would rot and attract maggots but without the totality of all fluids and tissues reacting to one another it wouldn't happen the same.

Nothing else looks like it, smells like it or reacts like it. The closest you can get is a pig...NOT Bacon, Ham, Prosciutto or any other processed pork. So unless KC had a once living WHOLE Pig in her trunk...It was Human Decomp.

I wonder if the jurors will be required to have this qualification outlined in the post. Will they have to be these super humans that only they can tell us what is human decomp smell or animal decomp smell. In this event, there would be no need for a device as Dr Vass used and it was a big waste of time and money. Fact: There is no super human that can claim he is the authority on the smell of human decomposition.

Secondly, I do have a lot of experience with food. The post is wrong. There are many foods that are raw and not processed. Processed foods also decompose and may decompose differently than unprocessed foods, but they still decompose and the smell is unbearable. The dead maggots themselves are decomposing and giving off odor. It does not have to be a pig. Dr Vass has the disclaimer at the beginning of his doc. This could come from a different event. There is nothing in his report that is for sure, because he put the disclaimer in. He never said it was adipocere. So some go off the assumptions, I don't. I can clearly see his safe writing to cover his rear.

Finally, there is something to be said for you are what you eat. The smell of decomp can vary based on what you eat. I know this to be a fact because I cooked a slab of bacon from a pig raised on our local trout farm and the whole house smelled of rotten fish. The government grades our beef here in america based on fat marbleing which is achieved through the feeding of grain. There are so many variations that no one could possibly be an authourity, hence the odor device.

To stop any sort of circular argument, I will agree to disagree with you respectfully. I think this has all been discussed over and over and I think the result of the discussion is a stalemate until we can get Dr Vass on the stand so he can explain himself. IMO and Moo

 

[logicalgirl]

Yes, I believe it was the garbage bag and its contents that caused the odor because there was a garbage bag there. I do not believe there was a decomposing human body in that trunk due to lack of evidence.

I also do not believe Tl power washed his garbage before Kc took it and put it in her trunk. It is likely Dr Lee took close up photos of the items in the trash. I have yet to see in my life time a full kitchen garbage bag without food in it. Furthermore there were maggots in the garbage indicating to me that there was food in the garbage. I believe Ga described it as the sound of hamburger frying in a pan.

So in closing, I find it hard to believe that a fatty like substance on a napkin and traces of butric acid caused the odor. Furthermore, I do not assume there was a decomposing body in the trunk to cause the odor due to lack of evidence. Moo

Don't you all recycle down there? Maybe ICA just put the recycling in the trunk. That is just the paper, plastic, cans go into the recycling garbage, and everything except the paper, which is empty, is pre-washed before putting it into recycling bins. Little or no smell from food stuffs there.:waitasec:

 

[LambChop]

Don't you all recycle down there? Maybe ICA just put the recycling in the trunk. That is just the paper, plastic, cans go into the recycling garbage, and everything except the paper, which is empty, is pre-washed before putting it into recycling bins. Little or no smell from food stuffs there.:waitasec:

Yes, we do. And it has been mentioned many, many, many times in this forum that TL's apartment has a food disposal. jmo

 

[spqr]

I wonder if the jurors will be required to have this qualification outlined in the post. Will they have to be these super humans that only they can tell us what is human decomp smell or animal decomp smell. In this event, there would be no need for a device as Dr Vass used and it was a big waste of time and money. Fact: There is no super human that can claim he is the authority on the smell of human decomposition.

Secondly, I do have a lot of experience with food. The post is wrong. There are many foods that are raw and not processed. Processed foods also decompose and may decompose differently than unprocessed foods, but they still decompose and the smell is unbearable. The dead maggots themselves are decomposing and giving off odor. It does not have to be a pig. Dr Vass has the disclaimer at the beginning of his doc. This could come from a different event. There is nothing in his report that is for sure, because he put the disclaimer in. He never said it was adipocere. So some go off the assumptions, I don't. I can clearly see his safe writing to cover his rear.

Finally, there is something to be said for you are what you eat. The smell of decomp can vary based on what you eat. I know this to be a fact because I cooked a slab of bacon from a pig raised on our local trout farm and the whole house smelled of rotten fish. The government grades our beef here in america based on fat marbleing which is achieved through the feeding of grain. There are so many variations that no one could possibly be an authourity, hence the odor device.

To stop any sort of circular argument, I will agree to disagree with you respectfully. I think this has all been discussed over and over and I think the result of the discussion is a stalemate until we can get Dr Vass on the stand so he can explain himself. IMO and Moo

Still waiting for an answer to my posted questions. I'll repost them in the hope you answer them for all concerned posters.

NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

 

[Tulessa]

Still waiting for an answer to my posted questions. I'll repost them in the hope you answer them for all concerned posters.

NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

Don't hold your breath. No pun intended in the dead folks and decay thread.:crazy:

I wish she would answer questions that have been given her. I enjoy her posts, I just wish I could get a grasp on why she isn't seeing what's been laid out in front of her. Hugs NTS

 

[Paintr]

You really don't have to be super human to detect the smell of human decomposition. Believe me, it is a smell that hits you where you live and once smelled can never be forgotten or mistaken for rotten anything else. As Judge Perry says 'Death is different'.

 

[logicalgirl]

Still waiting for an answer to my posted questions. I'll repost them in the hope you answer them for all concerned posters.

NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

Oh Oh - If I answered No, No, and No, does that mean I do not pass GO? Can I add if you asked me if I wanted to - the three answers would be the same? I leave such things to the experts and their reports, thank you.

 

[notthatsmart]

Still waiting for an answer to my posted questions. I'll repost them in the hope you answer them for all concerned posters.

NTS, a very simple question(s)...
-Have you, yourself, in real life..ever smelled the odor produced by a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Have you ever seen, up close, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

-Ever physically handled one, with your own hands, a decomposing Human Body? Yes or No

Heck thats no problem. I have answered it many times before. The answer is no. Sorry you missed it in the past. thanks

 

[notthatsmart]

Oh Oh - If I answered No, No, and No, does that mean I do not pass GO? Can I add if you asked me if I wanted to - the three answers would be the same? I leave such things to the experts and their reports, thank you.

A big super thanks for your post I think a lot of us are in that same boat. IMO

 

[Mamabear1963]

Some interesting links on Decomposition...


This one is the 5 rotting pizza in a trunk experiment:
http://www.wftv.com/news/17292628/detail.html

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/June/death.asp

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=death-decomposition-smell-pigs-chemical-detection