Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[SuziQ]

Personally, I think it started there and fanned out.

I tend to agree, especially since Gannon and Duarte mentioned that some of the vics were targeted through the internet. A person living in WI, can easily network with someone in New Jersey. Also while Kristi didn't know specifics, she stated, IIRC, that while the gang operates under a hiearchy, at the same time each group has it's own method. Which would explain why some of the cases have a smiley and others don't.

 

[eve]

Thanks Eve, I have to say unfortunately I have had personal experience in this area to have to agree that in my situation, I believe your opinion to be true. Although I am not sure so much that it is the killers hatred of this stereotype that's driving them as it is their wish to be like them.

I don't think we would really disagree. For me it feels like a love-hate thing. But definitely with a strong aura of envy.

Delta, I think maybe the killer/s either lived in this area orginally (MN-WI), work/ed or went to school here.

dairy and Blink, don't you think the recent exposure was a trigger in the Jacobson death? I think this is true whether it is the smiley face killer/s or a copy cat.

Eve

 

[Silver~Bell]

Okay, this woke me up last night, startled me out of sleep. It may just be totally off, but...

When bodies have been in the water, marks are obliterated.

How carefully really have they checked Will's body, may he rest in peace? Because his body was recovered very quickly compared to the others...and just as quickly the s.o.s. of "alcohol" was declared as being the problem.

HOW CAREFULLY HAVE THEY CHECKED FOR THE VERY SMALL MARKS a stun gun leaves?

If you hit someone with a stun gun, they are incapacitated. If placed in water, they will drown. No holding the head under, no strangling, etc.

I am wondering if the perps use a stun gun on them. I can recall other cases where the victims were incapacitated by a stun gun, and healthy young males were thus subdued.

 

[dairybest]

Eve,

I do agree. And, it is definitely conceivable that there could be parallel killers out there as well as people trying to stimulate attention by leaving graffiti.

(Off topic) Does anyone know anything about this one?


"Claremont, New Hampshire - April 25, 2008
Police in Claremont New Hampshire have identified the body of a man who was found floating in the Sugar River Thursday....."

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8226114&nav=4QcSdleL

~dairybest

 

[Blink34]

I havent decided yet if I think the smiley is put their by the killers or by persons "in the know" that are trying to expose them?

 

[Blink34]

I don't think we would really disagree. For me it feels like a love-hate thing. But definitely with a strong aura of envy.

Delta, I think maybe the killer/s either lived in this area orginally (MN-WI), work/ed or went to school here.

dairy and Blink, don't you think the recent exposure was a trigger in the Jacobson death? I think this is true whether it is the smiley face killer/s or a copy cat.

Eve

Not sure exactly yet, but I am sure it was planned.

 

[Salem]

I havent decided yet if I think the smiley is put their by the killers or by persons "in the know" that are trying to expose them?

Well that's a definite idea. Not sure what I think about it yet LOL, but it is a good idea because these symbols are not found at every scene OR they have not located the point of entry at every scene.

Back to the "all wet" theory. If the young men were drugged and unconscious, wouldn't there be a lot of water in the lungs? It seems if they were drugged, they would continue to reflexivly (sp?) breathe and would suck in water.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems a lot of these young men show signs of "dry" drowning, and to my non-medical mind, that just seems illogical. From Chris' situation, I think it is logical to assume his head was held under. Somebody else had to get wet. If you throw someone in, wouldn't there be evidence of bruises, etc. that would show they had hit rocks, brush, etc.? Maybe all that falls under the "no signs of foul play" analysis.

And what about the pond in Will Jacobson's case? It seems there would not be a lot of debris in a pond that would cause bruising, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out about that.

And eve - I agree that Will could have been a "ha ha." I think he was being stalked prior to the news breaking and the publicity just added to the situation. That's very sad.

You said your son was a student in WI. Please, please tell him to be very careful (I'm sure you do).

Salem

 

[eve]

Well that's a definite idea. Not sure what I think about it yet LOL, but it is a good idea because these symbols are not found at every scene OR they have not located the point of entry at every scene.

Back to the "all wet" theory. If the young men were drugged and unconscious, wouldn't there be a lot of water in the lungs? It seems if they were drugged, they would continue to reflexivly (sp?) breathe and would suck in water.

I could be wrong about this, but it seems a lot of these young men show signs of "dry" drowning, and to my non-medical mind, that just seems illogical. From Chris' situation, I think it is logical to assume his head was held under. Somebody else had to get wet. If you throw someone in, wouldn't there be evidence of bruises, etc. that would show they had hit rocks, brush, etc.? Maybe all that falls under the "no signs of foul play" analysis.

And what about the pond in Will Jacobson's case? It seems there would not be a lot of debris in a pond that would cause bruising, etc. It will be interesting to see what comes out about that.

And eve - I agree that Will could have been a "ha ha." I think he was being stalked prior to the news breaking and the publicity just added to the situation. That's very sad.

You said your son was a student in WI. Please, please tell him to be very careful (I'm sure you do).

Salem

Also one of the NY student posters said the pond is shallow and has no current - is basically stagnant. How did Will get into the middle like he did? If he just drunkenly toppled in while walking home he wouldn't have been that far out. Doesn't make sense.

Salem, my son and his roomates at UW-Madison are so much like these victims it's scary. I have heard the victims are mostly around 5'9" - my son is 6'1" but his best friend is an athletic, burly 5'9" - they and the 4 guys they live with are all cute, fun-loving, athletic, high achievers who are also very social. And yes, they drink on the weekends - attend all the parties.

I have told him about this and send him links. Whether he takes it seriously or just thinks, "Aw, Mom!" I don't know. I think at some level my warnings about life have sunken in though, he's a real good kid and I have to trust he's being careful. He did promise to use the buddy system when out at night. We have always stressed that a great deal. And of course, they never drive while drinking - they don't drive on campus anyway. He rides a bike a lot and he and his BFF have a tandem! LOL! They are kinda famous around campus for their tandem!

This case really worries me though. For all young men in college. It hits very close to home.


Eve

 

[DeltaDawn]

Just a quick comment on the states the smiley's have been found..Minnesota is not one of them. They have been found in Wisc..but according to the states listed no in Minnesota.

Second could this be that the guys are actually drowned in a bucket or barrel of water in the van or close proximity to the water..thereby they are already dead when they reach the water and no more water would enter the lungs.

 

[hockeymom]

Okay, this woke me up last night, startled me out of sleep. It may just be totally off, but...

When bodies have been in the water, marks are obliterated.

How carefully really have they checked Will's body, may he rest in peace? Because his body was recovered very quickly compared to the others...and just as quickly the s.o.s. of "alcohol" was declared as being the problem.

HOW CAREFULLY HAVE THEY CHECKED FOR THE VERY SMALL MARKS a stun gun leaves?

If you hit someone with a stun gun, they are incapacitated. If placed in water, they will drown. No holding the head under, no strangling, etc.

I am wondering if the perps use a stun gun on them. I can recall other cases where the victims were incapacitated by a stun gun, and healthy young males were thus subdued.

Wow, I was trying to think of a possable method of rendering someone helpless,but couldn't put my finger on it. This could be it. And maybe because these are just "drunken boys",nodody would pay much attention to a small mark. What exactly are the markings like?

I will be posting a lengthy response in a bit. Josh Szostak's Dad was on our local talk radio for 3 hours today. He was very interesting. i will try to cover some key points he said.

 

[Salem]

Just a quick comment on the states the smiley's have been found..Minnesota is not one of them. They have been found in Wisc..but according to the states listed no in Minnesota.

Second could this be that the guys are actually drowned in a bucket or barrel of water in the van or close proximity to the water..thereby they are already dead when they reach the water and no more water would enter the lungs.

Good point. I have serious suspicions that all these young men go in the water alive. I don't think that is what is happening. I mean really, if the perp(s) have to go in the water too, wouldn't you think that they (perps) would find it just too uncomfortable? Many of these drownings are happening in the middle of winter when the water is ice cold. BUT - here's another thought - maybe they have winter wetsuits........

How uncomfortable generally is a perp willing to be to accomplish his mission, considering they are getting some sort of gratification out of all this?

My mind is spinning........

Salem

 

[Silver~Bell]

hockeymom, I think a stun gun can leave a small mark, like two red dots, and the width between them depends on the model of the gun used. That is where the contacts are discharging their electricity.

On a hairy man, a tanned man, or if the gun is applied out of the way, the marks could be hard to see.

 

[shadowraiths]

I firmly believe the killer/s shares this view of the victims.

Or... the killer(s) [assuming said exist outside of speculation] could depend upon this view. Hmmm... that I think of it, here's something else to ponder...

Richard Hlavaty was the first reported drowning case (that I could find) in La Crosse. He drowned (was murdered, actually) in La Crosse in July of 1997. Quite close, if not exactly where these other men have drowned. Since his death, there have been 7 drownings. All, in a 10 year period. Of these seven, Nathan Kapfer, Jared Dion, Lucas Homan, and Patrick Runningen were all found near riverside park (where Hlavaty's death took place). The remaining three, Anthony Skifton, Charles Blatz, and Jeff Geesey were found downstream.

What differentiates Hlavaty's death from the others was that he and his brother, James, were "chased" into the river by seven men after they got into a fight. They had both been drinking heavily and Richard's BAC was 0.271. No one was ever arrested for his death bc witness accounts were too sketchy to identify anyone. And the case was eventually closed. Here's the article that goes into that bit, btw: http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

From the above article, it seems a number of people were speculating that the (by then) four deaths following Hlavaty's were the result of a similar scenario (i.e., shadowy group chases drunk young men into river), which, from my read, really ticked LE off.

I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the "serial killer" scenario, simply bc it involved both a witness and the claim that his tragic death was the result of, for all practical purposes, a "bar room brawl."

Iow if it is possible the two detectives think these seven men developed a taste for killing? If so, I personally, highly doubt that to be the case. At best, I could see the two October deaths that same year (the 3rd & the 20th, respectively) to have been a result of some sort of revenge killing. Though, even that seems slim, since the Hlavaty's were visitors, as opposed to residence of La Crosse.

Anyway, just some more fodder for the cannons... Fire away! ^_~

 

[Cirrus]

My first thought in these cases has always been stun gun. In addition - think about it. With the water doing what water does to a body, who's to say that the small marks (which can be hard to see on a body that HASN'T been underwater for days/weeks) would even be visible at all?

I know William Jacobson was only underwater for three days, but when they pulled him out they were at first only "tentatively" identifying him - which leads me to believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that in just those three days, his body had become difficult to identify.

Also, in the school newspaper this morning, it was reported that Jacobson had no bruising at all, and thus they were ruling out foul play. To me, this seems completely counter-intuitive. Had he stumbled down the incline and somehow managed to go unconscious and wind up in the pond, presumably he would've HAD to hit SOMETHING on his way down. And since, according to the last person that talked to him, he wasn't that drunk - presumably he would've had to hit his head in a fall like that in order to be out enough to actually drown.

If the theory is that he fell in (down an incline) while walking home, the lack of injuries/bruises makes no sense at all.

 

[hockeymom]

For anyone interested you can listen to the radio show with Josh Szostak's father at this link
http://www.wgy.com/pages/onair/onair_roney.html

A key point that he revealed and LE has totally discounted,is that Josh was wearing a hoodie type sweatshirt when last seen. (remember this is upstate NY in December). It was black and white with skull and cross bone on it. I believe it was Southpole brand. When his body was found last week,he was missing this sweatshirt,along with a watch,and I believe a necklace.
Wouldn't that be important information to at least consider? Why wasn't that released to the press? Why would Josh willingly remove his outer garment in the middle of the winter?

In regard to the smiley face found at the Port,Albany PD will run tests on the paint to see how fresh it is,but still have dismissed the case and claim the 2 NYC detectives have "no credability"

The dogs tracked Josh's scent to one block away from his car. LE wants us to believe he then turned around and either walked or willingly got in a car and turned around and went down to the river!!

I know there are some of you who will take issue with this,but,Bill Szostak was asked if he used a psychic at all. His story is pretty amazing. He said in desperation,he called a local psychic(I think I know which one. She is a very well known in the area and if someone doen't know better they would call her. I can't say she is a fraud,but she is not very credable). Anyway,she did mislead him,and he was very bitter.Sometime in March, a woman, contacted him. She wants no publicity,no money. She is a medium and told him many things that have now come true. Even the Albany detective working the case is a believer. He did not reveal details,but she did feel his son was murdered.
When the body was found last week,the detective told Mr. Szostak to forget everything he was told by the medium and go on with his life.
When you listen to this man,you can tell,he is not someone who would normally go for this psychic stuff. He is quite the skeptic,but he is absolutly convinced that this particular woman is the real deal.
Sorry this is so long,but it was a long show.
Also,Mr. Szostak may be on Greta tonight.

 

[SuziQ]

I would have to go back and compare the cases. But IIRC, some were not exactly dressed the same when found vs when they were last seen. And in one case they were dressed completely different. Bad witness memory, media reporting or more?

I think any suspicious marks would have been missed because no one of authority cared to look for any. It's been mentioned that the Jenkins and the investigator found marks that they believe were not caused by Chris being in the water. If the poster who posted that info could identify themselves again and elaborate more, it would be greatly appreciated. I would like to follow up on what those marks were.

The stun gun theory is a good one. I'm also inclined to think these may be dry drownings. Water is a good form of torture. Think waterboarding.

I also think that the key to the internet connection, informants and the info Gannon and Duarte are talking about leads back to Lilly and the drowning fetish website he posted on.

 

[Cirrus]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

 

[Blink34]

For anyone interested you can listen to the radio show with Josh Szostak's father at this link
http://www.wgy.com/pages/onair/onair_roney.html

A key point that he revealed and LE has totally discounted,is that Josh was wearing a hoodie type sweatshirt when last seen. (remember this is upstate NY in December). It was black and white with skull and cross bone on it. I believe it was Southpole brand. When his body was found last week,he was missing this sweatshirt,along with a watch,and I believe a necklace.
Wouldn't that be important information to at least consider? Why wasn't that released to the press? Why would Josh willingly remove his outer garment in the middle of the winter?

In regard to the smiley face found at the Port,Albany PD will run tests on the paint to see how fresh it is,but still have dismissed the case and claim the 2 NYC detectives have "no credability"

The dogs tracked Josh's scent to one block away from his car. LE wants us to believe he then turned around and either walked or willingly got in a car and turned around and went down to the river!!

I know there are some of you who will take issue with this,but,Bill Szostak was asked if he used a psychic at all. His story is pretty amazing. He said in desperation,he called a local psychic(I think I know which one. She is a very well known in the area and if someone doen't know better they would call her. I can't say she is a fraud,but she is not very credable). Anyway,she did mislead him,and he was very bitter.Sometime in March, a woman, contacted him. She wants no publicity,no money. She is a medium and told him many things that have now come true. Even the Albany detective working the case is a believer. He did not reveal details,but she did feel his son was murdered.
When the body was found last week,the detective told Mr. Szostak to forget everything he was told by the medium and go on with his life.
When you listen to this man,you can tell,he is not someone who would normally go for this psychic stuff. He is quite the skeptic,but he is absolutly convinced that this particular woman is the real deal.
Sorry this is so long,but it was a long show.
Also,Mr. Szostak may be on Greta tonight.

OK- I am BITTERLY tired of this so here goes, strap in-

There is an INVESTIGATIVE standard as to how cases are worked, both in process and classification.

The scene indicated he did not in all probability, get on his own where he was found, corroberated by K9.

He left ALONE, and his cell phone was found AT THE SCENE OF A CRIME, that coincidently, he went missing but the stolen car did not, as his was found as well. Corroberating the possibility he did not leave on his own.

There was no evidence of mental problems or potential for suicide.

He is found in an UNLIKELY area given the incident, and is MISSING JEWELRY..

This is a missing person's case, turned into a possible criminal investigation period... The reason this keeps happening to be closed before it's really even worked is because the BURDEN for subpeonas for records, interviewing witnesses, etc. is different in a criminal investigation. Prior to that classification, nobody really has any investigative power.

These victims and their families deserve 2 things:
1) everyone doing everything in their power to give them the answers they need.
2) everyone doing everything in their power to stop these murders, and change the LE process in investigating them from the onset.

 

[Silver~Bell]

Thanks hockeymom for that information about Mr. Szostak's remarks. I personally believe sometimes people can "know" information through some manner of "ESP" for lack of a better term.

Thanks Cirrus for your active detective work! It's so valuable to have the observations and knowledge of someone actually on the scene.

SuziQ do you think they could have been stunned, then partially suffocated before being put in the water after a second stun? Don't forget that the water was so cold that it quickly shuts down your systems.

 

[Blink34]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

Thanks Cirrus- is WJ's autopsy due today?