Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[shadowraiths]

FBI News Statement. They have to be saying this in order to protect the investigation, right?

Imho, their statement is not the least bit surprising.

For starters, for the "gang" bit does not fit the pattern of gang killings. Most of which involve a firearm or knives. That, and the victims of these kinds of murders are primarily rival gang members or innocent bystanders who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time during a drive-by shooting. The most horrendous in recent history was the death of a 4-year-old girl who was killed in March of last year. (click here) And other are victims of B&E.

Furthermore, if we are to believe the nation wide smiley face gang bit, then, imnsho, the serial killer moniker should be completely discarded. At best, and assuming these detectives are even remotely on to something, they would be characterized as "thrill killers" as opposed to "serial killers." Although Hickey argues that anyone who "kills over time" should be classified as a "serial killer," imho, broad-brushing multiple (possible) murders is a dangerous proposition. But anyway...

And finally, if they are so certain these cases are the result of some group of individuals, then their next step (imho) is to provide the FBI with a VICAP Crime Analysis Report for all of the individuals they believe to be a victim to this so-called gang. Esp considering that the VICAP CAR has 188 data points from which solid stats can be applied to rule these young men in or out of the equation.

 

[SuziQ]

Thanks for this article, it's a good one. Well the problem I see is the criteria LE is using to determine whether a serial killer is involved in the four cases discussed. It's a bit flawed. In bold is by me.

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

In reviewing the last four river deaths, police said here's why they and the medical examiner think the deaths were not caused by a serial killer or the same person or persons:

Absolutely no trauma before the drownings. In most homicides, usually there is some trauma.

No evidence of struggle.

I agree with the above two.

None of the victims knew each other.

Serial Killer victims rarely know each other.

No robbery. Victims had identification, wallets or money on them.

Robbery is usually not a motive for serial killers.

Some of the victims were big, strong men.

Lmao! Was that based on a scientific gathering of information? I doubt this is listed anywhere by a legit criminal psychologist and or profiler.

 

[Blink34]

OK- I am BITTERLY tired of this so here goes, strap in-

There is an INVESTIGATIVE standard as to how cases are worked, both in process and classification.

The scene indicated he did not in all probability, get on his own where he was found, corroberated by K9.

He left ALONE, and his cell phone was found AT THE SCENE OF A CRIME, that coincidently, he went missing but the stolen car did not, as his was found as well. Corroberating the possibility he did not leave on his own.

There was no evidence of mental problems or potential for suicide.

He is found in an UNLIKELY area given the incident, and is MISSING JEWELRY..

This is a missing person's case, turned into a possible criminal investigation period... The reason this keeps happening to be closed before it's really even worked is because the BURDEN for subpeonas for records, interviewing witnesses, etc. is different in a criminal investigation. Prior to that classification, nobody really has any investigative power.

These victims and their families deserve 2 things:
1) everyone doing everything in their power to give them the answers they need.
2) everyone doing everything in their power to stop these murders, and change the LE process in investigating them from the onset.

You know, just dawned on me, maybe they took the jewelry to show proof of Josh's death- big sigh

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Eve,

I do agree. And, it is definitely conceivable that there could be parallel killers out there as well as people trying to stimulate attention by leaving graffiti.

(Off topic) Does anyone know anything about this one?


"Claremont, New Hampshire - April 25, 2008
Police in Claremont New Hampshire have identified the body of a man who was found floating in the Sugar River Thursday....."

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8226114&nav=4QcSdleL

~dairybest

Welcome to WS, Dairybest! Yes, this is another one that sounds suspicious. Thanks for posting it! It is odd the father didn't report him missing tho. We don't know any circumstances of where he was before. Still...drowning and no signs of foul play certainly fit.

 

[SuziQ]

An interesting snippet I found:

http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2004/04/18/news/02second.txt

John Steers, La Crosse County medical examiner, said the investigations ``covered all the bases.'' He said the victims were tested for everything including the presence of a date rape drug, which was not found in the bodies.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Shadow~ Another reason I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the equation, they stated they were being pelted with rocks etc. while being chased. Bruises on his Hlavaty's body verified this as did his brother's statement. It would appear that it was a fight which carried over into the water in that particular case.

 

[Blink34]

Welcome to WS, Dairybest! Yes, this is another one that sounds suspicious. Thanks for posting it! It is odd the father didn't report him missing tho. We don't know any circumstances of where he was before. Still...drowning and no signs of foul play certainly fit.

For real- ugh?? Do we have a New Hampshire possible vics thread?

 

[Blink34]

Shadow~ Another reason I ruled Hlavaty's death out of the equation, they stated they were being pelted with rocks etc. while being chased. Bruises on his Hlavaty's body verified this as did his brother's statement. It would appear that it was a fight which carried over into the water in that particular case.

I tend to agree, only thing though, Josh Snell (hope I got this right) was chased as well.

 

[Blink34]

Thanks for this article, it's a good one.


That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?

 

[shadowraiths]

You know, just dawned on me, maybe they took the jewelry to show proof of Josh's death- big sigh

I'm not so sure about this bit. From my read, enough odd circumstances surround his death to raise the reasonable possibility that he was murdered. Whether said jewelry was stolen or not.

 

[SuziQ]

Cirrus, than you for the info. It confirms my impression that the deepest part of the pond is in the middle and the perimeter around it is shallow.

Silver Bell, I think it's likely that some of the victims were dead before they were put into the water. I base that on the fact that less than a tsp of water was found in Chris Jenkins lungs, and the fact he was on his back with his arms crossed. I think he was found exactly the way he was put into the water. Also Gannon and Duarte said, paraphraising, that the victims were placed into the water and pushed out. IMO, the vics would have to be dead or completely unconcious (sp?).

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Alright, so I just walked down and completely around the pond where Will Jacobson was recovered. Turns out, there IS a foot path that goes around it on the road-side as well as the other side, but it's still incredibly unlikely to fall in from there. In addition, I had been remembering the incline as being STEEPER than it is. Over 90% of the pond, if one were to fall, no matter how close to the water itself, there would be no 'tumble in' scenario. You would hit the ground, go "damn," and then get back up. There is only one section where one could actually tumble in, and 1) this would cause injury, and 2) The water over the ENTIRETY of the edge of the pond is extremely shallow, less than a foot deep - for two or three feet into the pond. One would have to actively WADE in in order to get to a point that was more than ankle deep. Even if he had tumbled in from that one small area where it's vaguely possible to do so, he would've landed in the shallows and simply stayed there.

Thanks for checking that out! I agree. It sounds like he could have simply stood up or crawled to the bank from the water in this scenario. If he had to wade to the middle...it further adds to the mystery of how he got there. He would know he was walking in the water at 3:30 am and walk out. I don't understand how can LE explain this in their investigation. It appears they are not taking this into account. I hope the school and local newspapers are all over them on this point.

 

[SuziQ]

Thanks for this article, it's a good one.


That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?

Very good point!

 

[shadowraiths]

That article may be old or did they miss that Jared Dion, Luke Holman and one other wrestled together on the same team in HS?

The article appears to have been written on Apr 18, 2004, prior to Lucas Homan's death (Feb 10, 2006), though right on the heels of Jared Dion's death (Apr 15, 2004).

 

[shadowraiths]

I don't understand how can LE explain this in their investigation.

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this. Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do.

 

[Blink34]

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this. Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do.

Did you use the word prolly as opposed to probably on purpose?

 

[shadowraiths]

Did you use the word prolly as opposed to probably on purpose?

Yup. It's but one of many an old habit I picked up from the juicenet (Usenet). ^_~

 

[hockeymom]

Well,I can tell you one common thread these cases all have for sure,LE who don't want to look outside the box and are just passing all these off as drunk college students. Even if none or only some of these cases are connected,they should all be looked at individually again. I'm frustrated,I can only imagine how their families feel.

Now another question,and forgive me for asking cause it may be totally ridiculous. Is there any kind of technique someone can use on someone where one touch and they pass out? You know Dr. Spockish? Just wondering if there is such a thing say in martial arts?

 

[SuziQ]

Prolly the same way SFPD explained this. Of course, we all know that when a person commits suicide by knife, they stab themselves repeatedly, then walk several feet to the kitchen to wash said knife off before walking back to the living room to die. Sure we do.

Omg, that's absurd! This poor family.

 

[Blink34]

Yup. It's but one of many an old habit I picked up from the juicenet (Usenet). ^_~

love it, my college roomate and I invited an entire "quicker" language before the web- that's one of our words, I digress- we're kin!!