Deaths of Male College Students-General Discussion #2

[SeriouslySearching]

Thanks for posting those photos. They looked serious about the task at hand. I am sure it wasn't a pleasant experience for any of them.

I think you are correct that most of the time LE's contact with male students is to deal with the aftermath of alcohol being applied. It would tend to skew their judgement, imo.

Petechial Hemorrhaging would be present if they were suffocated first.

The pathological findings of drowning are variable and non-specific. Petechial hemorrhages involving the periorbital region and the conjunctiva have been described in many causes of death, but are thought to be exceedingly uncommon in cases of drowning.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17719193

I don't think this is something which would go undetected by MEs repeatedly in all of these cases and neither would being tased. The distinct pattern of a taser (stun gun or taser) should be quite evident on the body even if it were in the water an extended period of time, imo. The normal Taser has barbs and they would have to be removed by someone. They leave injection sites as well as reddened skin behind. A police stun gun directly applied leaves distinct burn marks.

I wish we knew details of the costume he was wearing...if it was very thick material such as velvet, vested, etc.. Was it from a costume shop or was it something he threw together? Was he wearing a heavy coat or jacket? Do we know any of those things?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if they are gambling on these deaths?

The Rotten.com Dead Pool, the largest in the world[1], uses NNDB as its source of qualified celebrities, and as arbiter of their life status. Ghoulpool.us uses a variety of sources to verify celebrity status, includes a checklist on the site to measure prospective names. Points for the Ghoulpool.us game are based on age at death, cause of death, the ranking of the celebrity on a player's list, and the uniqueness of the pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_pool

An assassination market is a prediction market or dead pool where any party can place a bet (using anonymous electronic money, and pseudonymous remailers) on the date of death of a given individual, and collect a payoff if they "guess" the date accurately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_markets

 

[Randal Graves]

\

Petechial Hemorrhaging would be present if they were suffocated first.

The pathological findings of drowning are variable and non-specific. Petechial hemorrhages involving the periorbital region and the conjunctiva have been described in many causes of death, but are thought to be exceedingly uncommon in cases of drowning.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17719193

Yeah that's what i'm saying- if he was murdered it could have been done without causing much damage, except the red spots around his eyes. The autopsy could really change things. What if they find out his neck was broken? Or an ankle. The hemorrhages could be found or he could have traces of poisons. I don't know how long alcohol stays in a dead person's body (it can still be converted to other nontoxic chemicals by enzymes), particularly submerged in a pond, but that could be important too. We'll see...

 

[fran]

Ok, so they say that Jenkins was held in a van for quite awhile and tortured. How did he get into the van?

Either someone offered him a ride or he was forced into the van and maybe by more than one person.

One common thing I've found in a few of the cases, is they were able to make a phone call to someone and said someone was chasing them. How many other students that drowned or are missing, didn't have a chance to make a phone call and were chased also? We'll probably never know.

Several of the students were kicked out or asked to leave a bar.

A # of them were NOT dressed for the elements. ie they left their jacket at the bar or they were just running from one dorm to the other sort of thing.

There are also a number of them who had contact with local LE. I do not know if they're in the same locations. Just the LE had contact with them prior to them disappearing and maybe ended up drowned or still missing.

I came across another student missing from campus who drowned, no drinking and he had on a hoody. He is the only non white suspected of being connected.

There are several Asian males.

FWIW, there's only been four cases since '96 in the month of May. Hopefully this has ended for this school year.

IMHO, the ONE thing that is common for ALL of the cases, the lack of concern by LE. Their dismissive attitude about these cases. I would venture to say there are a number of these that involve foul play that has gone undetected because LE too easily dismissed it as a person having too much to drink and causing his own demise.

JMHO
fran

 

[DeltaDawn]

The interesting thing about these cases to me are the clues left at the site where the body entered the water. If you wanted to leave a message for LE that would be your only recourse in mocking them..where the body entered the water. You would have no idea where the body would end up due to weather and water conditions.
Until the NY detectives put this together, no one in LE was researching, or even trying to find, the spot where the body entered the water. All evidence was collected at the scene of where the body was found. This is profound thinking on the part of these detectives.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Yeah that's what i'm saying- if he was murdered it could have been done without causing much damage, except the red spots around his eyes. The autopsy could really change things. What if they find out his neck was broken? Or an ankle. The hemorrhages could be found or he could have traces of poisons. I don't know how long alcohol stays in a dead person's body (it can still be converted to other nontoxic chemicals by enzymes), particularly submerged in a pond, but that could be important too. We'll see...

On Alphonse Michael Barbiere's case here, we have extensively gone through BAC and BAL in response to TOD scenarios. His case involved hypothermia as opposed to drowning, but we covered a lot of ground in the breakdown of alcohol there.

Yes, the autopsy results and tox screen will be interesting in Jacobson's case. I wonder if we will be privy to those.

 

[DeltaDawn]

Ok, so they say that Jenkins was held in a van for quite awhile and tortured. How did he get into the van?

Either someone offered him a ride or he was forced into the van and maybe by more than one person.

One common thing I've found in a few of the cases, is they were able to make a phone call to someone and said someone was chasing them. How many other students that drowned or are missing, didn't have a chance to make a phone call and were chased also? We'll probably never know.

Several of the students were kicked out or asked to leave a bar.

A # of them were NOT dressed for the elements. ie they left their jacket at the bar or they were just running from one dorm to the other sort of thing.

There are also a number of them who had contact with local LE. I do not know if they're in the same locations. Just the LE had contact with them prior to them disappearing and maybe ended up drowned or still missing.

I came across another student missing from campus who drowned, no drinking and he had on a hoody. He is the only non white suspected of being connected.

There are several Asian males.

FWIW, there's only been four cases since '96 in the month of May. Hopefully this has ended for this school year.

IMHO, the ONE thing that is common for ALL of the cases, the lack of concern by LE. Their dismissive attitude about these cases. I would venture to say there are a number of these that involve foul play that has gone undetected because LE too easily dismissed it as a person having too much to drink and causing his own demise.

JMHO
fran

Fran in this latest case in NY..Josh's father received his cell-phone back with all text messages etc erased. He doesn't know if LE did that or the perps. He knows the last message went out to one of his son's friends parents in Long Island. He doesn't have a record of that text. Someone on the call-in show was telling him how to use the Sim card in the phone to get that info.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

The interesting thing about these cases to me are the clues left at the site where the body entered the water. If you wanted to leave a message for LE that would be your only recourse in mocking them..where the body entered the water. You would have no idea where the body would end up due to weather and water conditions.
Until the NY detectives put this together, no one in LE was researching, or even trying to find, the spot where the body entered the water. All evidence was collected at the scene of where the body was found. This is profound thinking on the part of these detectives.

This is why I think they were not a taunt for LE, but a marker for other "players" in the area instead. They were never meant to be found by the detectives, imo.

 

[SuziQ]

I was going to post an update to the Congressman's letter, that KSTP said they were going to have at 6PM. But their website is flat out down. Says Service is unavailable. Do you think they got slammed by traffic?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Fran, they are using the information gained from the PI on the Jenkins' case about a man or men taking him into the parking garage and putting him in a cargo van. This was backed up somewhat by a piece of what they feel to be of the red feather from his costume found in the garage.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I was going to post an update to the Congressman's letter, that KSTP said they were going to have at 6PM. But their website is flat out down. Says Service is unavailable. Do you think they got slammed by traffic?

Could be or could be someone is messing with them, too. There are people who are not happy about this investigation.

 

[Blink34]

This is why I think they were not a taunt for LE, but a marker for other "players" in the area instead. They were never meant to be found by the detectives, imo.

I agree, but I am also considering it may have been "tattling" on their own

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I agree, but I am also considering it may have been "tattling" on their own

To me, it wouldn't make sense in that context tho...unless they went back later to add them. Is this what you are thinking?

 

[Blink34]

Fran in this latest case in NY..Josh's father received his cell-phone back with all text messages etc erased. He doesn't know if LE did that or the perps. He knows the last message went out to one of his son's friends parents in Long Island. He doesn't have a record of that text. Someone on the call-in show was telling him how to use the Sim card in the phone to get that info.

He can also use an attorney to subpoena it- other than the that LE can request it via subpoena as well- goes back to what I said earlier, had this been a potential criminal investigation, they would have that info already- seems like that would be an important determining factor to rule out foul play, no? Did anyone ever get prosecuted for the stolen car? Anyone print it?

 

[Blink34]

To me, it wouldn't make sense in that context tho...unless they went back later to add them. Is this what you are thinking?

Yes, that is what I am thinking, possibly after the body was found. Why would you go to all that trouble to have the body far away from where it went in and then mark it?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I have always felt they marked it immediately as proof of their "handiwork" myself...and the reason being for others in their "group" to see.

 

[Cirrus]

SuziQ - Yes, the part by the cement box is the only place where the embankment is steep enough that one could conceivably tumble down. I don't know for sure where he went in.

Only thing is, though, when I was down there earlier - even right there, the water seems really really shallow. I clearly didn't wade in to see - but I really don't think it could be more than 6 inches deep.

 

[eve]

Eve...was thinking of you...bar crawl today in Madison. All fingers and toes crossed.

Randal...great post...I always did think that over time, and with the body bloating, many signs of trauma would disappear. As far as them looking into a date rape drug or such, I was under the impression that it left the body pretty quickly. With these drownings, have they ever been able to pinpoint an actual TOD? Is there anything to say he was immediately put into the water? Could someone have dragged him towards the middle of the pond? A boat dump him later?

Awwww, thanks RR. :blowkiss: Bar crawl? Oh, be still, my heart. I will be calling my ds. They just don't think they are vulnerable at that age, ya know?

Eve

 

[Blink34]

I have always felt they marked it immediately as proof of their "handiwork" myself...and the reason being for others in their "group" to see.

Maybe, just not feeling sure either way. Maybe it started as others were claiming others deeds?

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I wonder if they are gambling on these deaths?

The Rotten.com Dead Pool, the largest in the world[1], uses NNDB as its source of qualified celebrities, and as arbiter of their life status. Ghoulpool.us uses a variety of sources to verify celebrity status, includes a checklist on the site to measure prospective names. Points for the Ghoulpool.us game are based on age at death, cause of death, the ranking of the celebrity on a player's list, and the uniqueness of the pick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_pool

An assassination market is a prediction market or dead pool where any party can place a bet (using anonymous electronic money, and pseudonymous remailers) on the date of death of a given individual, and collect a payoff if they "guess" the date accurately.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_markets

In case you missed it.