Details about Josh's childhood revealed in his parents divorce documents

[JSR]

And let's not forget, one doesn't have to be a murderer or child sex abuser to pass those particular broken genes to one's children. It could skip a generation, like balding, or green eyes, or curly hair. "My grandfather was bald, my dad had lots of hair, and here I am, bald as a cue ball." That short of thing.

I think that's what you're saying and others may have missed that. I agree, it seems to be something very wrong in the gene pool of that family. The fact that Jennifer seems to be without that defect is a lot like three children being bald as adults and the other having the full head of hair into old age. We just never know what our genes will do when they develop offspring. Procreation is tricky business. Who's to say the sister who is free of the problem won't pass it down to her children and grandchildren?

Just to be clear, I know balding and sexual abuse/murder are very different things. It was just a simple example.

Agreed. And that's ultimately what I was getting at.

And in regards to the above posting regarding the environment. One of my majors in college was sociology. I've always been a firm believer that both genes and environment play a part in how we develop.

There is a reason that I have the same exact hand gestures of my Great Aunt who I seldom get to see. Genes DO pass on things more than just physical attributes.

And history has shown that many serial killers were born into relatively happy and loving homes, and some weren't. Although many times you will find that the particular serial killers who were from happy homes were adopted.

Bottom line is that I think it's a little mixture of both. But as a society I think we would be remiss to ignore that there are real and very striking trends in families that produce violent criminals. And in many cases I think you will find the violent tendencies, lack of feelings of remorse, and indifference to others pain can be rooted in genetics.

 

[Kimster]

Steve Chantrey is Steven Powell's "artistic alias." That website http://stevechantrey.com/Pages/Default.aspx had been uncovered by websleuthers back in the beginning and we endured listening to his "music."

Just going from memory, and I don't have a source or link, but after SP talked about falling in love with Susan when the whole sexual allegations recently came to light, it was said that some of those songs on his website were written for Susan.

ETA: One link to an Inside Edition story where one of Susan's close friends discusses Steven's music that was written for Susan:http://www.insideedition.com/news/6...an-powell-case-father-in-laws-love-songs.aspx

Boy, I totally missed all that. :thud:

 

[21merc7]

Boy, I totally missed all that. :thud:

Oh man, I just read the short examiner article. Yuck! He sent nude pics of himself to her. :sick: What is wrong with men that think women want those??!!!

 

[21merc7]

Agreed. And that's ultimately what I was getting at.

And in regards to the above posting regarding the environment. One of my majors in college was sociology. I've always been a firm believer that both genes and environment play a part in how we develop.

There is a reason that I have the same exact hand gestures of my Great Aunt who I seldom get to see. Genes DO pass on things more than just physical attributes.

And history has shown that many serial killers were born into relatively happy and loving homes, and some weren't. Although many times you will find that the particular serial killers who were from happy homes were adopted.

Bottom line is that I think it's a little mixture of both. But as a society I think we would be remiss to ignore that there are real and very striking trends in families that produce violent criminals. And in many cases I think you will find the violent tendencies, lack of feelings of remorse, and indifference to others pain can be rooted in genetics.

I completely agree.

Perhaps a better example would be how genetics play in diseases, of course there is diabetes, heart disease, but also depression. Depression can be hereditary, so can other mental problems. That is purely genetic and nothing we can do to change it. I do have a friend that is unwilling to have children b/c she is mentally ill, she also knows she could not care for them. This is not something that troubles her, she is happy with it, and wishes more people would make the same decision. I applaud her for it, and for her candor about it.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I can't help but think of Charles Manson. His "followers" were not of his ilk when they met him, he managed to brain wash people and make them trust him as a superior being, and I see this role played out by SP and his father before him. It is a learned behavior, not an inherant one. IMHO. These boys had a chance, just look at how much more trusting they became of the Cox family in just months, how trusting were they in the hands of the evil one? children are impressionable, if they are told something repeatedly, it becomes gospel.
When my children were little I stressed to them that anything worth doing, was worth doing well. My son says he still reflects on that to this day, and it has helped him start a thriving business and and a great reputation. The same can be said for negative things that are stressed to a child, and if done long enough, there is no reversing it. Thank God these boys were taken away from JP when they were. Again MOO.

 

[Herding Cats]

So SP's mother disappeared, while in Burbank, and no one ever saw her again?

Websleuths, I think we can do some sleuthing on this aspect...does anyone know her name, or date of missing? I think this is an angle of the story which absolutely HAS to be followed up on.

Best-
Herding Cats

 

[belleyes]

Hi All,

Just reading through your posts and have to say that they are all so interesting. This is one of the saddest cases that I have ever read about but after reading about Josh and his unbelievably sick father, I can't say that I am surprised. I have seen interviews with Josh and found his affect to be flat and unnerving. Almost like he was dead inside.

That being said, I have to disagree about the idea that this is a Gene Thing or a "bad gene pool." The biggest argument in Psychology is nature vs nurture and it is an undeniable fact that our environment shapes us and has an enormous impact on our personalities and who we become as a person.

It goes against all of my training to simply believe that Josh Powell was "Born Bad". We are all born with innate traits and a temperament, but it is our environment (home and community) that has the greatest effect on how those traits and temperament are shaped. No one is born "evil". That is just way to black and white and ignores the all important concept of nurture. It is more likely that generations of abuse existed in this family and were passed down generation to generation. We see this constantly in the mental health/social work field. In fact, the disciplines operate on that very assumption which has been proved through research and psycho social theories .

The concept of the "Resiliant Child" is a powerful one. Many children are raised in horrific and dysfunctional families but go on to become healthy and productive adults. They are abused but do not become abusers. No one knows why but this happens but it flies in the face of the idea of a "genetic" problem. Why did Josh turn out to be an abuser and a murderer? Why was his sister the complete opposite and able to see her father and family for what they are and distance herself from them? Resiliance and Nature vs. Nurture.

Looking at Josh's childhood and background even at a surface level one can see that he was raised by a very sick man in an extremely toxic and dysfunctional environment. He was not able to overcome and aligned himself with what he learned. His sister obviously did not. If we sat and went back generations in this family, we would find consistent patterns of abuse and trauma that were learned and passed down to each generation. Abuse and violence are cyclical and if that cycle is not broken and people do not get the help that they need to re learn life skills or do not have that "resiliance" the results are often tragic as we are seeing here.

We cannot separate a person from their environment when trying to understand their behavior, actions, and motivation. It's the equivalent of trying to eat soup with a fork...It's impossible.

:clap: Well said. I was actually going to comment on this very topic and then I read this.

I also wanted to comment of the triple failure of the court system. First in ever allowing SP to have custody of his kids. Secondly when the courts allowed a POI in a missing persons case to have supervised visits in his own home (weapons can be hidden, no metal detectors, etc). Supervised visits are "supervised" because their is concern for safety. Lastly....the courts failed when they allowed a perp to be around (didnt the boys andJP live with SP) young kids involved with CPS. (I believe this is universal but...in my state if you are involved with CPS everyone in your household (family or not) must pass a background check.

In responce to some questions about the being assessed for possible sexual abuse after the *advertiser censored* incident...
-Is it known that they were sexually abused?
-If so can I have a link to do some sleuthing?
In my county children are not automatically checked unless they exhibit behaviors indicitive of abuse or they disclose abuse or were depicted in images. (I am well versed in the process, and sometimes you really have to advocate to have a child evaluated, even when its painfully obvious.)

 

[Spice]

Bottom line is that I think it's a little mixture of both. But as a society I think we would be remiss to ignore that there are real and very striking trends in families that produce violent criminals. And in many cases I think you will find the violent tendencies, lack of feelings of remorse, and indifference to others pain can be rooted in genetics.

I respectfully disagree with the part that I bolded but do agree that it is a mixture of both. Psychology and Social work are disciplines and they are based on research and science. Social Work is a mixture of psychology and sociology. The entire core of social work works from Person In Environment theory. That is, we never never ever separate a client from their environment when trying to understand their behavior and when trying to help them. It just cannot be done. And often times, when the environment is improved, through whatever means, the client's makes great progress in changing their lives.

To say that ones behavior is rooted in genetics is to ignore the fact that environment and nurture play a critical role in how we are shaped. It also alludes to the fact that people are just "Born Bad" and have no hope in life, no chance to change, and are just wired wrong. Nothing can be further from the truth.

With the right help, people change all of the time, the problem is most people do not ever get the help that they so sorely need. Yes some things are based in genetics, but murders and abusers are not born, they are created over time.

Most genetic problems that affect personality can be treated with psycho-pharmacueticals in this day and age. Some people do have imbalances, some are genetic, and some are created out of suffering trauma and abuse. I used to be so against medication until I began working in mental health and saw the immense change in people that were on the right medications in the right doses. Once those "genetic" problems with chemicals are treated a person can concentrate on Cognitive Behavior Therapy and make great strides toward progress.

I don't know a therapist, psychiatrist, or social worker worth their salt that would ever state that a person is just damned to a life of evil because they were born into it. It is simply not true.
moo.

 

[21merc7]

Thanks for those bits from gwenabob.

I've always been struck by two things in them. One is that grandma made that pronouncement, "You're never going to see your mother again," with great authority. How could she possibly know that unless she knew the woman was dead? Every child grows up, and that child might seek out a parent who leaves. Or a parent who abandons might come back. What proof is there that mom actually went to Burbank? What SP knows is that momma disappeared and grandma said it was permanent.

The second is that SP's mother never HAS reappeared. Frankly, tabloids with cash can usually find the most remote relatives. I would have expected in all this to hear from SP's mother, just as we heard from his ex-wife. The silence is deafening.

I suspect SP was taught to hate women via the "kidnapping" grandparents, which was so ingrained in JP. I hope murder is not a common theme through the generations, but you sure raised some questions about the possibility.

 

[JSR]

I respectfully disagree. Psychology and Social work are disciplines and they are based on research and science. Social Work is a mixture of psychology and sociology. The entire core of social work works from Person In Environment theory. That is, we never never ever separate a client from their environment when trying to understand their behavior and when trying to help them. It just cannot be done. And often times, when the environment is improved, through whatever means, the client's makes great progress in changing their lives.

To say that ones behavior is rooted in genetics is to ignore the fact that environment and nurture play a critical role in how we are shaped. It also alludes to the fact that people are just "Born Bad" and have no hope in life, no chance to change, and are just wired wrong. Nothing can be further from the truth.

With the right help, people change all of the time, the problem is most people do not ever get the help that they so sorely need. Yes some things are based in genetics, but murders and abusers are not born, they are created over time.

Most genetic problems that affect personality can be treated with psycho-pharmacueticals in this day and age. Some people do have imbalances, some are genetic, and some are created out of suffering trauma and abuse. I used to be so against medication until I began working in mental health and saw the immense change in people that were on the right medications in the right doses. Once those "genetic" problems with chemicals are treated a person can concentrate on Cognitive Behavior Therapy and make great strides toward progress.

I don't know a therapist, psychiatrist, or social worker worth their salt that would ever state that a person is just damned to a life of evil because they were born into it. It is simply not true.
moo.

Ah the countless discussions I had while in college about this age old debate- nature v. nurture. This debate is not one that will ever be entirely decided upon.

I think the best approach to think of nature and nurture is one that is symbiotic. And that ebbs and flows over time and interacts together to form a person. I think in some cases genetics play a larger role in the make up of an individual and in some the environment does.

However, I never said that nurture (one's environment) doesn't play a key role in one's development. But I still think society would be remiss to not take into account that there are many mental disorders (many of which are now proven to be genetically inherited) contribute to many of the violent criminals we see today. Some of which can not be "cured" with medication or even in some cases years and years of therapy. There is no cure for sociopaths. They simply only consider themselves and literally do not posses the ability to feel empathy. Sociopaths aren't treatable. Does that mean they are damned to hell? No I didn't say that. What it means is that you have a ticking time bomb that could violently go off at any moment, should the mood so strike them. And in violently acting out against a person they are unable to feel empathy for that person. It's a dangerous mix.

But I do think evil does exist, real and true evil. Evil that can take much pleasure in other's pain and suffering. It's when humans lose their humanity and become something altogether different. Those individuals do exist and society needs to be protected from those individuals.

It's the same approach that every deviant and every criminal has the ability to be rehabilitated that gets us in trouble. It's the same people who claim that pedophiles can be rehabilitated. They claim they have done their time, done their court ordered therapy and are then released to roam among the rest of the unsuspecting society. Pedophiles have a high recidivation rate. But still they let them out after being "rehabilitated" and they continually create more and more victims. Many times moving on to killing to keep from going back to jail due to a victim reporting the crime.

My point is sometimes people are beyond the point of help, and other times therapy can help. I guess the question is how many times as a society do we allow criminals the chance to change? How many times do we allow them to commit violent offenses only to be let out and create more devastation upon society. At some point a balance needs to occur. And help those that can be helped and to protect society from those that can't.

 

[stilettos]

Hi All,

The concept of the "Resiliant Child" is a powerful one. Many children are raised in horrific and dysfunctional families but go on to become healthy and productive adults. They are abused but do not become abusers. No one knows why but this happens but it flies in the face of the idea of a "genetic" problem. Why did Josh turn out to be an abuser and a murderer? Why was his sister the complete opposite and able to see her father and family for what they are and distance herself from them? Resiliance and Nature vs. Nurture.

Respectfully snipped by me


I fully agree with the above snipped. Having experience in my own family with three sisters who suffered the same abusive childhood...One got a rough start and got involved in an abusive relationship, got out and went on to a Master's in Music, to become a foster parent and adopt four in addition to her own child then went back to school to become a Child Crisis and Family Counselor. The second went on to abuse her own children and to allow her abuser to do the same until his death, the third was addicted to heroin at 13 and anorexic. She decided to have a tubal because she was afraid she would abuse her own children. (That part I admire as wisdom) All in the same family system, all sisters, very different reactions. Not all looked resilient..one became moreso than the others. Accident of birth? IDK...but not everyone horribly abused goes on to violate others.

 

[Spice]

My point is sometimes people are beyond the point of help, and other times therapy can help.

I hear you, but again I disagree and feel that most things in life and just not that black and white. There is always a grey area and that is where most of the answers live.

Please do not confuse trying to understand behavior with excusing behavior. I do not excuse criminals and believe in consequences, but I do not believe that people are born bad, and never will, and the volumes of research over the years prove that.

I work in mental health and see people change in ways that I could never imagine possible, and I see others that don't change. But they were not born bad and I don't believe that anyone is beyond help.

Do they want the help? Do they have access to the help? Do they want to change? What happened to them? When did it happen to them? How did effect their brain? How does society view them, treat, them? What is it like in their home? Did they ever get help or were they instiutionalized from a young age either in prison or otherwise? Do they have PTSD? Sex Trauma? A personality disorder? A substance abuse problem? An attachment disorder? Why?

There are so many variables. Your post was interesting and well thought out, we will just have to agree to disagree, because to me Nature Nurture is not a simple concept in a sociology book, I see it play out every single day.

 

[JSR]

Respectfully snipped by me


I fully agree with the above snipped. Having experience in my own family with three sisters who suffered the same abusive childhood...One got a rough start and got involved in an abusive relationship, got out and went on to a Master's in Music, to become a foster parent and adopt four in addition to her own child then went back to school to become a Child Crisis and Family Counselor. The second went on to abuse her own children and to allow her abuser to do the same until his death, the third was addicted to heroin at 13 and anorexic. She decided to have a tubal because she was afraid she would abuse her own children. (That part I admire as wisdom) All in the same family system, all sisters, very different reactions. Not all looked resilient..one became moreso than the others. Accident of birth? IDK...but not everyone horribly abused goes on to violate others.

I do agree that not everyone does. But although I was born into a family with addiction problems, and as such was raised by my grandparents, I am keenly aware of addictions.

But if I had been born into a family that had a history of mental problems such as Sociopathy and the like I would have opted like your one sister to not continue with the family line. But that's just me.

 

[JSR]

I hear you, but again I disagree and feel that most things in life and just not that black and white. There is always a grey area and that is where most of the answers live.

Please do not confuse trying to understand behavior with excusing behavior. I do not excuse criminals and believe in consequences, but I do not believe that people are born bad, and never will, and the volumes of research over the years prove that.

I work in mental health and see people change in ways that I could never imagine possible, and I see others that don't change. But they were not born bad and I don't believe that anyone is beyond help.

Do they want the help? Do they have access to the help? Do they want to change?

There are so many variables. Your post was interesting and well thought out, we will just have to agree to disagree, because to me Nature Nurture is not a simple concept in a sociology book, I see it play out every single day.

And I totally respect your opinion, even if I don't fully agree with it.

And I don't think you have to work in the mental health field to understand these concepts and see it in every day life. Did I study this in college, absolutely but still most all of us know someone or know of a family who is effected by either mental issues or crime.

 

[Spice]

But if I had been born into a family that had a history of mental problems such as Sociopathy and the like I would have opted like your one sister to not continue with the family line. But that's just me.

Sociopathy is rooted in attachment disorders. It can happen when a child's needs, and cries are not met by their parent from birth. The child does not learn empathy when it is not being extended to them during their development. We develop that skill.

Just like some infants that literally die from "failure to thrive" when they are not being picked up, held, loved, looked at, and cared for emotionally. We are social beings and can literally die from emotional neglect as babies.

 

[Spice]

And I totally respect your opinion, even if I don't fully agree with it.

And I don't think you have to work in the mental health field to understand these concepts and see it in every day life. Did I study this in college, absolutely but still most all of us know someone or know of a family who is effected by either mental issues or crime.

Myself included, and thank God I was not "born with" my father's violent, criminal, substance abusing traits and genetically damned to repeat his behavior and live his awful life.

Self Empowerment is a truly amazing thing.

 

[Nistka]

Myself included, and thank God I was not "born with" my father's violent, criminal, substance abusing traits and genetically damned to repeat his behavior and live his awful life.

Self Empowerment is a truly amazing thing.

I completely agree. I usually lurk here, but I felt the need to jump in because some of the comments above insinuated that because SP and JP are/were sociopaths, that genetically speaking, C and B were predisposed, or "doomed" even, to eventually become abusers themselves. At the minimum, they would never adjust.

Yes, I do believe that the trauma from their childhood would haunt them, but self-empowerment truly is amazing. I think many of us have come from terrible upbringings...but many of us are self-aware enough to recognize what is "healthy" and what isn't and seek the guidance or help that we need. My childhood was mostly terrible, but I was resilient, and though I may have some depressive tendencies, and come from a lineage riddled with addicts and mental disorders, I feel as though I have overcome this as much as I can. I certainly would never dream of inflicting any hurt or suffering on my son. He is the love of my life, and I am teaching him compassion and love. So to imply that I shouldn't have had him because of our "genetics" is ridiculous.

Children are a product of their environment, and the boys would have learned what love truly is from their amazing grandparents. They had a chance. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Just my :two cents:


For the record, I've followed many cases, and this is the first to bring me to tears several times. My heart is broken for the Coxes. Wishing them peace.

 

[SilkySifaka]

I completely agree. I usually lurk here, but I felt the need to jump in because some of the comments above insinuated that because SP and JP are/were sociopaths, that genetically speaking, C and B were predisposed, or "doomed" even, to eventually become abusers themselves. At the minimum, they would never adjust.

Yes, I do believe that the trauma from their childhood would haunt them, but self-empowerment truly is amazing. I think many of us have come from terrible upbringings...but many of us are self-aware enough to recognize what is "healthy" and what isn't and seek the guidance or help that we need. My childhood was mostly terrible, but I was resilient, and though I may have some depressive tendencies, and come from a lineage riddled with addicts and mental disorders, I feel as though I have overcome this as much as I can. I certainly would never dream of inflicting any hurt or suffering on my son. He is the love of my life, and I am teaching him compassion and love. So to imply that I shouldn't have had him because of our "genetics" is ridiculous.

Children are a product of their environment, and the boys would have learned what love truly is from their amazing grandparents. They had a chance. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Just my :two cents:


For the record, I've followed many cases, and this is the first to bring me to tears several times. My heart is broken for the Coxes. Wishing them peace.

This is one for the books, I normally am pretty tough and don't take the cases personally no matter how much I care..i can keep a barrier. This case is emotionally horrific because of the emotional atrocity on top of the bare facts of murder of Susan and the boys. There is a sadism that is beyond just beating up a child or wife...most abusers don't like being abusers, they just aren't willing or able to stop themselves. Or it is a "you made me do it" situation where they implicitly agree it is a bad thing even if they were 'forced' into it.

Josh seems to have enjoyed it all!!!!!

 

[Spice]

I completely agree. I usually lurk here, but I felt the need to jump in because some of the comments above insinuated that because SP and JP are/were sociopaths, that genetically speaking, C and B were predisposed, or "doomed" even, to eventually become abusers themselves. At the minimum, they would never adjust.

Yes, I do believe that the trauma from their childhood would haunt them, but self-empowerment truly is amazing. I think many of us have come from terrible upbringings...but many of us are self-aware enough to recognize what is "healthy" and what isn't and seek the guidance or help that we need. My childhood was mostly terrible, but I was resilient, and though I may have some depressive tendencies, and come from a lineage riddled with addicts and mental disorders, I feel as though I have overcome this as much as I can. I certainly would never dream of inflicting any hurt or suffering on my son. He is the love of my life, and I am teaching him compassion and love. So to imply that I shouldn't have had him because of our "genetics" is ridiculous.

Children are a product of their environment, and the boys would have learned what love truly is from their amazing grandparents. They had a chance. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Just my :two cents:


For the record, I've followed many cases, and this is the first to bring me to tears several times. My heart is broken for the Coxes. Wishing them peace.

Thank you! Following that theory I guess we would have to assume that those poor, beautiful, innocent boys were going to turn out just like Josh and Steve Powell. No way could I ever approach a human being with such a fatalistic attitude, especially when I have seen stunning resiliance and change take place with so many adolescents that society would deem a lost cause.

No one, absolutely no one is doomed to the "sins of their father." We all possess the capacity and desire for change, we just need the support and guidance to get there once we make that decision.

 

[JSR]

Thank you! Following that theory I guess we would have to assume that those poor, beautiful, innocent boys were going to turn out just like Josh and Steve Powell. No way could I ever approach a human being with such a fatalistic attitude, especially when I have seen stunning resiliance and change take place with so many adolescents that society would deem a lost cause.

No one, absolutely no one is doomed to the "sins of their father." We all possess the capacity and desire for change, we just need the support and guidance to get there once we make that decision.

I guess as you stated above nothing is black and white. No one ever said that the boys would have turned out like their male relatives. But the point is they could have. I just think my point has been lost that people must be mindful that there are genetic tenancies out there.

There have also been studies shown that brain scans of those affected by sociopathy have the same areas of the brain (mainly the frontal lobe) that are neurologically abnormal. Sociopaths aren't made. But the science does tend to support that those with sociopathic tendencies are further nourished by a dysfunctional and abusive environment. I guess my point is that you can't have one without the other.

And I'm also not saying that what would be my choice of ceasing to continue my family line if I had a sociopathic genetic tendencies would be right for everyone. I'm just saying that I wouldn't risk the chance.

I know of very few people with an ideal or perfect childhood or life. But I gotta say I would absolutely think twice about having children if my father was Ted Bundy. It may not be right, but it would be the right choice for me.