Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 2

[GoneWithTheWind]

What neighbor is saying he heard a fight on the 15th? It certainly can't be Brian B because he wasn't even home. He arrived home from vacation on the 16th about 6pm. (docs Pg. 1386) Now maybe he heard the tussle between her and dad over the gas cans. I see no reason to think Cindy was lying saying there was no fight on the 15th.

As for the timing suggested for the alleged fight, the average 2-3 year old sleeps 12 hours a night. My older boys slept up to 15 hours a night and my youngest slept only 9-10 hours at that age. Now, considering Casey was on the phone till 3:30 am and the first check of voice mail was 7:45 I would assume Caylee woke her up after only 4 hours of sleep wanting breakfast. This leads me to believe that she likely was just getting ready and tucked into be about 9:30 pm. That would be 10 hours of sleep. A quick look at her cell usage the days before this looks like Caylee was tucked into bed closer to 9-10pm and woke up about 8-8:30, a reasonable nights sleep. I don't see anything different in the phone usage those previous nights. If she had in fact, had a huge fight at 9:30 and was on the phone right after it isn't very likely she wouldn't have said something to Tony about it and I read nothing in his statement to imply she was upset that night.

It was Lee who mentioned the fight on the 15th to JG.

 

[kageykaren]

Beane didn't Caylee have dinner at SP's? While reading the post on this thread it reminded me of CA while in a verbal battle with JM at the depos, JM brought up the fight between CA and KC. At that moment CA sad, "We didn't have a fight" and JM asked her againg CA denied the fight a second time. As her temper was escalting she looked at JM and then to BC and stated, "Go there, just go there. Let him go there" What was CA s quick draw Mc Graw answer all about? What was CA going to do if pressed harder to answer that one particular question. I guarante CA has worked out a partial truth pertaining to the "Fight"

 

[reeseeva]

I'm wondering about Shirley's e-mails to her sister. Do they coincide with the Father's Day visit?

Also, I've been trying to find the Supplemental report in the docs, where Mark F. tells LE that Cindy had told him of a fight, before KC left, & then her question to him was, " Is Caylee dead"? or words to that effect.

I don't have time to search now, but will later or tomorrow.

Does anyone else remembers this?

 

[Devon]

Cindy said in her deposition with Morgan & Morgan that the reason she recalled she and Caylee got home about 4pm was because she remembers giving Caylee her dinner.
.

Snipped

I posted in another thread that I thought I'd read somewhere that CA said she and Caylee got home around 4pm but couldn't remember where I'd read that, so thanks for reminding me.

This doesn't quite fit with BJB's estimate using the Epass records as reference, but it's possible she may have stopped at a store somewhere after going through the toll. Or she may be recalling the time inaccurately.

 

[6thcents]

I t was a bad night for both of them for sure, one that will come out in trial but with your sleuthing it is so much better,....CA was waiting for KC angry about the stolen money from her grandparents but I think it goes much deeper than that We saw Caylee singing she asked her pop pop if he was tired she was a smart little girl.I think it was a combo of things.When CA got so angry at the depo when they asked about a fight either it was such commonplace or something else is at work.The pings put her there,thus the beauty of a binary world.

 

[Devon]

Beane didn't Caylee have dinner at SP's?

Snipped

I think that the meal shared with SP was at lunchtime, and then she fed Caylee again in the evening. Some people call the two meals lunch and dinner, some dinner and tea, or even lunch and supper. It gets very confusing! :crosseyed:

 

[6thcents]

I will go look CA said we lost Caylee from the call to the police

 

[Mamabear1963]

Snipped

I think that the meal shared with SP was at lunchtime, and then she fed Caylee again in the evening. Some people call the two meals lunch and dinner, some dinner and tea, or even lunch and supper. It gets very confusing! :crosseyed:

Here in PA some refer to them as Dinner and Supper...Dinner being the noon meal. confusing indeed

 

[NSS]

I think the fight was about money and custody. Cindy threatened KC for the last time about going to get custody of Caylee and meant it. Probably told her that instead of going to work the next day, Cindy was heading to a lawyer.

I think KC said something vile like "I'd rather see my daughter dead than with you..." and Cindy jumped on her and choked her.

To me, I just cannot see what KC could have said that was so horrible for Cindy to ever consider reacting that way. That's the only thing that comes to my mind.

I don't think KC is that candid.

It is equally as likely that CA tried to throttle her over the money only.
The money was for CA's Dad IIRC, who she had just visited, it was FATHERS day and CA must have seen the same frailty that we saw in the video.
Then to be ignored on the call, watch KC saunter in as if nothing was wrong.
CA getting Caylee ready for bed whilst KC texts and calls.

CA must have been furious, and if KC started giving her some tall tale (a lie to you and me), CA may have just reached beyond frustrated. On top of the other missing money THIS one was outside the Anthonys 4 walls.

How's Cindy supposed to rose tint that?

 

[Dear Prudence]

Here in PA some refer to them as Dinner and Supper...Dinner being the noon meal. confusing indeed

And Cindy is from Ohio so maybe she too calls it Dinner & Supper. Um, Ohio is close to PA right? Geography was not my best subject in school.

 

[NocturnalLady]

Need thoughts on whether CA would confront KC about stealing $$$ from grandmother SP via telephone or wait until she saw her in person.

hmmm - i just don't know...


fantastic synopsis, as always, BJB! ty ty ty!

Yes thanks BJB!!

IMHO - Cindy would not have wanted to "warn" Casey by mentioning the theft situation over the phone. Cindy would know that Casey would avoid coming home at all or at least wait until Cindy was asleep if casey knew she was "in trouble".

 

[Pink Panther]

I'm not convinced that the confrontation about nabbing from Grandma's account actually occured on the 15th of June. I think it had already occured earlier. June 9th or even earlier than that. If there were any discussions/arguements on the 15th, I think they had already escalated to "custody"/"bad momma" issues that encompassed KC's history and her Narcisistic mother's issues...

MOO

 

[ZubenElSchemali]

I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

 

[Devon]

I'm not convinced that the confrontation about nabbing from Grandma's account actually occured on the 15th of June. I think it had already occured earlier. June 9th or even earlier than that. If there were any discussions/arguements on the 15th, I think they had already escalated to "custody"/"bad momma" issues that encompassed KC's history and her Narcisistic mother's issues...

MOO

I've just rechecked SP's interview and she states that the theft of the $354 occurred 'this Spring, a few months ago, I don't know, may be three or four months ago'. This interview was conducted on August 21, so even if it was just 3 months earlier that would have been mid May, almost a month before June 15. I can't see CA waiting that long to confront KC about something that clearly angered her greatly.

I'm not convinced there even was a fight on June 15.

 

[white_envelope]

I think it was LP who said multiple times that the fight was about the grandparents' money.

 

[doogiesgirl]

I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

Wait...I am confused, where did you get the info that right after JG's polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney? Who are you saying JG refused to talk to, (LE?) ? Where is the info of talk of JG hiding evidence? Who was talking about him hiding evidence? If it was all off record how did you find out about it? I had to take a break or two from this case so I very possibly could have missed this. I would be very grateful for info regarding your post. Thanks.

 

[JBean]

Wait...I am confused, where did you get the info that right after JG's polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney? Who are you saying JG refused to talk to, (LE?) ? Where is the info of talk of JG hiding evidence? Who was talking about him hiding evidence? If it was all off record how did you find out about it? I had to take a break or two from this case so I very possibly could have missed this. I would be very grateful for info regarding your post. Thanks.

Hi Doogie'sgirl. The information comes from page 1 of the link that AE posted.

 

[doogiesgirl]

For reference the "Details Emerge Casey/Cindy Fight" Part I thread is located here. Also worth noting per JBean's closing post on that thread that Part I was closed due to some "personal attacks". Soo...hoping everyone can stay on their best behavior.

Maybe this'll be a short one, but, I thought it deserved a follow-up. Worked this out on the Theories Part 5 thread as it pertained to the tension between Cindy & Casey that may have been a key motivator for Casey actions 6/16, and to begin a focused look at whether or not an overnight murder was plausible based on the information we have. Similar analysis done for the morning of 6/16 until Casey left the house here if interested, but, perhaps OT for "the fight" discussion on this thread.

The following will be a re-read for some that encountered it on the Theories or 6/15 Ping thread. I edited it a bit here and re-posted it so it could be snipped/parsed for detailed Q&A.

Sunday, 6/15/08

@ ~9AM Cindy and Caylee left for Mt. Dora (see Conway toll 9:27AM)
Per E-Pass records here

@ ~9AM Casey left G&C's and arrived @ Tony's ~9:15AM.

@ ~3PM Cindy & Caylee returned home to Hopespring. Per E-Pass records (and consistent w/ statements) (see matching Conway toll @ 2:33PM).

@ 3:35PM Cindy called Casey's cell from the Hopespring home phone. Casey let this call roll to vmail, and Cindy left a 36 second vmail.

@ 3:45PM Kyle called Casey's cell phone and Casey let this one roll to vmail also. At no time during this period did Casey interact w/ her phone.

@ 5:06PM, w/o checking vmail, Casey called G&C's Hopespring home phone from her cell phone @ Tony's apt. for a 3 minute conversation, or left a 3minute answering machine message.

...2 hours passed, w/ no activity on Casey's cell...

@ 7:06PM Casey began a text dialogue w/ Tony while she was still near his apartment. The pings from this conversation indicate Casey left Tony's ~7:06PM.

@ 7:10PM Casey already enroute & unprompted, called G&C's Hopespring home phone for a 1 minute conversation or answering machine message.

@ 7:36PM Casey arrived @ G&C's Hopespring home.

...between 7:06PM and 9:26PM Casey was engaged in a continuous texting conversation w/ Tony (and a little w/ Amy). The single greatest lapse between their texts was 11minutes @ 8:56 w/ most of them in the 2 minute range.

@ 9:26PM a period of cell inactivity lasting 39 minutes began (Inactivity Period I) . (IMHO, this seems to be a good candidate for "the fight")

@ 10:06PM Casey ended the cell inactivity when she received a text from Tony by placing a call to Tony and talking w/ him for 10minutes (IMHO, this also would seem to be indicative of the fight having just taken place)

@ 10:25PM the heavy texting between Casey and Tony resumed for the balance of the night...with a 40minute break @ 11PM. "(Inactivity Period II)

Note: WhyamIsoInterested observed this second period of inactivity would've encompassed the time George likely returned home and perhaps Casey spent a few minutes w/ him...being Father's Day... and apparently having not spent much time w/ him that day.

@ 11:44PM Casey called Tony for an 80-minute marathon phone call.

Some other things to consider...

• IIRC, George was @ work 6/15PM...based on his work schedule he would've been gone or in the process of leaving about the time Cindy & Caylee returned to Hopespring that afternoon.
  
• It has been speculated based on Casey's PhotoBucket activity timing (thanks JWG), as well as Casey's cell call durations during this timeframe each day, Caylee's naptime was typically 1-3PM. Since Caylee was @ Shirley's, etc. during her normal naptime, Caylee likely fell asleep in her carseat on the ride back to Hopespring (speculation).
  
• Cindy did NOT fire off several calls to Casey to come home. She simply left a vmail. Even when Casey didn't respond there were no add'l calls from Cindy. So, FWIW, it doesn't appear Cindy was anxious/upset w/ Casey about not coming home immediately @ this point.
  
• Casey was casual about coming home. She may have seen the missed call# and known about being called from Hopespring, but, she didn't check her vmail. She simply did her own thing for another couple of hours and called when she was on her way home.
  
• There appears to be an opportunity for Cindy & Caylee to have gone for a swim after arriving @ Hopespring after Caylee, perhaps, finished her nap. Recall they had eaten @ Shirley's. Dunno if they needed to eat again.
  
• By 9:26PM a tired Caylee should've already been in bed asleep. IIRC, C&G have indicated Caylee typically co-slept w/ Casey in her room. With George @ work still, and Lee nowhere around, this would've given the rest of the house to Cindy & Casey to have it out. By this time in the evening it would also seem to be quiet enough in the neighborhood that a shouting match would've been overheard...esp. if they carried it out into the backyard.
  
• This scenario would have Casey going into her bedroom (closing the door presumably) with Caylee already asleep after "the fight" if it indeed occurred @ 9:26-10:06PM, perhaps coming out for some time w/ George after he came home from work. Cindy likely went to bed after a long day - having to goto work on Monday morning.

Hoping this paints a clearer picture of the day & the circumstances to support productive discussion regarding "the fight".

Amazing Post----TY!:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I can only imagine and mentioned in another thread... I believe that Cindy threatened for the last time to obtain custody of Caylee and throw KC's butt out the door. I think (my opinion only) that KC replied in kind telling her mother she'd rather see her daughter dead than Cindy get custody. Thus the choking of KC.

And more than a month later, Cindy spewed out the dead body in the car on 911. She knew her daughter followed through, she knew. Right after the regrettable 911 statement, CA, GA & LA sprung into action that has lead to massive cover up.

my 2cents only people...

PC--I can so see this being said between CA and KC, and that remark from KC sending CA over the edge. Kind of like the straw that broke the camels back. Great supposition, it's like you were in that house with them.

 

[whiteangora]

I think the whole thing is rather questionable. I found the interview where this supposed fight is mentioned by Jesse Grund here: http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0408/19129428.pdf What I find most interesting is that right after the polygraph he was ready to call in an attorney and refuse to talk to them. There was talk of hiding evidence and he said something about them suspecting him. All of this must have been off record. It is in this statement that he goes on to tell the story of the fight and Lee sexually abusing Casey. Sounds rather suspicious to me and I wouldn't simply take his word on all this.

Is there someone else claiming this horrible fight took place? I heard Lee say his mother never choked his sister.

The neighbors heard it and Mark Fuhrman says GA &CA told him about it, it's in the LE report, here:
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/2810987/...sed-Nov-26-004

Page,139
or
Hand numbered, 2499

 

[Atlanta PI]

And Cindy is from Ohio so maybe she too calls it Dinner & Supper. Um, Ohio is close to PA right? Geography was not my best subject in school.

I am from OH (at least until last year when I moved to Atlanta) we call is lunch and dinner.