Details Emerge: Casey/Cindy Fight - Part 3

[Casey Serin]

I believe that Casey had murder on her mind as early as March of 2008. Something happened to make her do those searches. On her birthday, March 19th, 2008, is when Casey searched for the One Tree Hill episode where a nanny kidnaps a child. March 17th and March 21st is when Casey did all the searches on chloroform, household weapons, neck breaking, shovels, etc...

I believe that there was a fight on June 15th, 2008 that made Casey act. I believe, and this is only my opinion, that Cindy threatened Casey for the last time about getting custody of Caylee and kicking her out of the house.

I do not believe that Caylee died because Casey wanted to party. Casey could have easily gave up her rights to Cindy and went on with her life. I believe that Caylee is dead because "Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee." I have no doubt that Cindy questioned Caylee as much as she could question a two-year-old. I have no question that Cindy grilled Caylee. I could also see Cindy... not really turning Caylee against Casey... but I could see Cindy wanting to be favored by Caylee over Casey. We know that Cindy took over Casey's job as Caylee's mother during Caylee's 2nd Birthday Party. We know that Cindy wanted full control over Caylee (Shirley's interview). We also know that Cindy believed that Caylee was her child... even would slip and tell Caylee to come to "mama" when referring to herself. She also claimed that Caylee was her "third" child to the world during the Memorial in February 2009.

I do not believe that Cindy ever allowed Casey to be a mother to Caylee and I believe Casey resented her for that. Maybe had Cindy did what any mother would do... and helped her daughter learn to be a first time mother instead of taking over the role of mother to Caylee... we wouldn't be here today talking about Caylee being deceased?

I think that Casey was jealous of Caylee... like a 2-year-old would be jealous of a newborn. I believe that Cindy nurtured this unhealthy relationship between Casey and Caylee because it fulfilled her own selfish needs to be in control.

emphasis mine. nice summary, Lola Moon

I'm surprised more people haven't laid the blame squarely at Cindy's door.

 

[Whisperer]

What time was the big fight w/cindy? As I recall ICA was on the phone constantly w/tony. There may have been a break around 7:30pm. I will try to check my old records. I was careful w/notes at the beginning.

 

[Zoe Bogart]

Yes, I think the argument the night of the 15th included then I am leaving and I am taking Caylee with ME, from Casey.

That story changed many times, first it was that they simply left for a NORMAL day of work, other times it was they moved, other times they took a holiday to bond, it was a fluid story alright. In the words of my hero, Mark Klass , "The truth does not change".In one of her letters doesn't she say something to the effect of now the bit== knows how it feels?
IMO it is likely she was planning to kill both mom and pop if those computer searches are hers. She was planting seeds for others to think the two were divorcing, fighting over infidelity,etc. If those two had life insurance policies perhpahs a murder suicide would effectuate her and Amy being roommates in the home her mother gave her, she inherited.
One doesn't need to learn neck breaking and household weapons to subdue a two year old little toddler,eh?
I will try to search for your clip friend. I just googled it and found this reference to her moving out. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2162731/casey_anthony_case_caylee_disappears.html

Once Casey announced she wanted her friend to adopt the baby, of course hindsight tells us it would have been wise for Cindy to legally adopt the baby. That didn't happen, but if someone says they don't want their child, I believe them!
Tracey tells how Casey could not bear for anyone to coo over Caylee's photos without getting out photos of her own birthday parties from childhood. She was unable to let Caylee be in a spotlight rather than herself and seemed to see it as a very odd competition. She was deeply troubled, imo and yes, given an opportunity, if she thought she could get by with it, I can imagine her doing some messed up things regarding a newborn. Sadly. She gives us a lot of inside information about Casey Anthony from a far different rose colored view point of mom and pop
http://www.google.com/search?q=trac...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=1&ved=0CCkQqwQwAA

I so agree with you. Casey was setting up a grisly scenario with her tales of parents divorcing and the house becoming available for Casey and a roommate. Parents were fighting, a fight ensued, they're both dead. Or worse, someone broke in and killed GA, CA, and Caylee while innocent KC wuz at werk! How could this happen to her?

Somehow I don't think anyone would benefit from insurance in a murder/suicide, but I'm not sure. Would KC know that? Would KC know that the mortgage/s on the house would need to be paid off? Would mortgage insurance pay in the case of murder/suicide?

It appears she was planning but didn't know the extent the planning should take. Was she so angry and miserable with her family that she lost control and did part of the deed too soon?

Without Caylee, she was free. No longer needed George and Cindy as long as she had men taking care of her and free access to other people's money. Yet, she still had communications with Cindy during that month! I would have cut off communication with my mother, angrily telling her I'd never see her again. Instead, Casey kept her irons in the fire where the Anthonys were concerned and she went into their house several times and the only thing GA and CA noticed missing were the gas cans. :waitasec:

 

[ZsaZsa]

emphasis mine. nice summary, Lola Moon

I'm surprised more people haven't laid the blame squarely at Cindy's door.

Cindy can be blamed for a lot of things but ICA is the one person responsible for the death of Caylee. She alone made that choice.

 

[Casey Serin]

Cindy can be blamed for a lot of things but ICA is the one person responsible for the death of Caylee. She alone made that choice.

If Casey Anthony is found guilty of murdering Caylee, then she will be accountable for her crimes. But was she born "this way" - capable of such a hideous crime - or is the Anthony household a major contributing factor. In that sense, I would see both her parents as responsible for Caylee's death.

 

[LambChop]

Let's not forget the hole that was dug in the backyard near the foundation of the house that the A's had to have seen. 12 inches long and 5 inches deep. That certainly would not been missed by them while they were doing their yardwork. jmo

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

If Casey Anthony is found guilty of murdering Caylee, then she will be accountable for her crimes. But was she born "this way" - capable of such a hideous crime - or is the Anthony household a major contributing factor. In that sense, I would see both her parents as responsible for Caylee's death.

:seeya: Welcome Casey Serin to our family...

The parents of ICA are responsible in the way they chose to parent ICA...no boundries, no responsiblities, no consequences for bad behavior, no work ethics, integrity, honesty....etc, but ultimately ICA is responsible for Caylee's demise. I would love to have her brain scanned to see if the frontal lobes are indeed like those of true sociopaths...so is she born that way or nurtured to become that way is up for debate....unless we see her brain activity, one will never know for sure...

What the parents should have done, probably many times, is follow up with their threats of getting custody of Caylee...They knew the capabilities of their daughter or GA wouldn't have thought that Caylee or ICA would be the cause of the death smell from the car...once finding ICA, they knew it was Caylee..CA has told her fellow co workers that as well...so the fear was real and now they choose to back track their statements and dishonor Caylee's memory..Which is why folk are incredibly upset with the grandparents. Still, nothing from ICA...she holds contempt for them both...they are now useless to her and they need to watch that train, it's heading their way..One more sleep and Justice for Caylee begins...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

 

[LambChop]

If Casey Anthony is found guilty of murdering Caylee, then she will be accountable for her crimes. But was she born "this way" - capable of such a hideous crime - or is the Anthony household a major contributing factor. In that sense, I would see both her parents as responsible for Caylee's death.

My guess would be the A's were ill prepared to deal with the problems KC caused. I believe Caylee was just a tool for KC to get more of what she wanted. When CA changed her bank account and put the bank on alert for her credit cards is when KC decided no one in her family was of any use to her anymore. Look at how she used Amy who would have been cast aside as soon as Amy mentioned the missing money. KC uses people as her family does, but killing your own child because they have outlived their usefulness is pure evil. I don't believe KC's parents were capable of handling her. jmo

 

[angeldust]

I remember looking at the time line for the 15th june and there was no phoning and texting between 9.30 pm and 10 15 pm or there about s i was thinking that could be fight time then it started again till the wee hours in the morning. just an observation

 

[krisskross]

I always thought it was because GA rode back in the Pontiac and when they got home, they immediately started looking around for Caylee. The decomp smell was all over him and wherever he went the smell was left. I also believe since they started looking around their yard, they knew Caylee was deceased, GA made sure to mention that basketball sized stain in the trunk. They know, they absolutely do...JMHO

Justice for Caylee

Bold mine

But both dogs hit in the same place, an area, near the playhouse and sandbox. IIRC, no other alerts or places of interest were noted by the handlers. Because of the shovel, I'm inclined to think this is the day she attempted and failed to bury Caylee. Somehow some decomp fluid from Caylee got onto the soil. Realising digging a grave was damn hard work and that this was a crazy idea anyway, she probably went hunting for the laundry bag and................. thought about her old school.

Then her next major problem was probably, what could she fix for Tony's dinner. The girl is a textbook, cold as ice sociopath. Some of them are intelligent but not this girl. She's is the dumbass version mark 1.

 

[Harmony 2]

Let's not forget the hole that was dug in the backyard near the foundation of the house that the A's had to have seen. 12 inches long and 5 inches deep. That certainly would not been missed by them while they were doing their yardwork. jmo

Page 5 of this link shows photos and statements about the original search of the backyard and cadaver dog hits. George actually told LE about the disturbed soil.

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

According to Jesse Grund, Lee Anthony told him that Cindy and Casey had a huge fight on the night of June 15th, 2008 and that Cindy literally put her hands around Casey's neck and tried to choke her.

That is all we have about this "fight." I think something had to have happened the night of the 15th, but we only have Jesse's word? Not to say that I don't believe Jesse, but it would have been nice to get some confirmation from Lee?

When LE asked Tony about the lengthy phone call that night he stated that it was about lovey dovey stuff. I always wanted to look at the text messages she sent out that night. Were those ever disclosed?

I believe that Casey had murder on her mind as early as March of 2008. Something happened to make her do those searches. On her birthday, March 19th, 2008, is when Casey searched for the One Tree Hill episode where a nanny kidnaps a child. March 17th and March 21st is when Casey did all the searches on chloroform, household weapons, neck breaking, shovels, etc...

I believe that there was a fight on June 15th, 2008 that made Casey act. I believe, and this is only my opinion, that Cindy threatened Casey for the last time about getting custody of Caylee and kicking her out of the house.

I do not believe that Caylee died because Casey wanted to party. Casey could have easily gave up her rights to Cindy and went on with her life. I believe that Caylee is dead because "Casey hated Cindy more than she loved Caylee." I have no doubt that Cindy questioned Caylee as much as she could question a two-year-old. I have no question that Cindy grilled Caylee. I could also see Cindy... not really turning Caylee against Casey... but I could see Cindy wanting to be favored by Caylee over Casey. We know that Cindy took over Casey's job as Caylee's mother during Caylee's 2nd Birthday Party. We know that Cindy wanted full control over Caylee (Shirley's interview). We also know that Cindy believed that Caylee was her child... even would slip and tell Caylee to come to "mama" when referring to herself. She also claimed that Caylee was her "third" child to the world during the Memorial in February 2009.

I do not believe that Cindy ever allowed Casey to be a mother to Caylee and I believe Casey resented her for that. Maybe had Cindy did what any mother would do... and helped her daughter learn to be a first time mother instead of taking over the role of mother to Caylee... we wouldn't be here today talking about Caylee being deceased?

I think that Casey was jealous of Caylee... like a 2-year-old would be jealous of a newborn. I believe that Cindy nurtured this unhealthy relationship between Casey and Caylee because it fulfilled her own selfish needs to be in control.

That does not excuse Casey murdering Caylee. Casey could have done what a lot of young adults do when they become single mothers... she could have worked... got grants and even applied for reduced rent so that she could have moved out of that house. Single mothers do this every day.

Anyways... something happened on June 15th, 2008 that made Casey act out her plans.

If Casey's pregnancy had not been discovered it is my opinion that neonaticide would have occurred... But then her pregnancy was discovered and your description hits the nail on the head...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2174580/

Neonaticidal mothers are often young, unmarried women with unwanted pregnancies who receive no prenatal care.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/08/07/earlyshow/saturday/main6752460.shtml?source=related_story

An unwanted child "is self-explanatory. That's a parent who feels the child is a hindrance and gets in the way of the parent's goals."

To bring my post back around to the topic of a fight on the night of June 15th, IIRC I believe things had festered for awhile and that the previous weekend there had been another argument. This is the weekend that Casey and Caylee had spent the night with Ricardo. I might be incorrect about that though because my recollection is fuzzy.

 

[enelram]

I think the night of the fight Cindy ordered KC to MOVE OUT of the house and she meant it. She was essentially Throwing her out onto the streets, TL, or wherever KC could bum free rent. In some of the depositions this was mentioned by ? friends-
This was a crucial turning point for KC. She could find a place to live, but not with "Snothead" (sorry) so her decision was easy and in her emotional state (rage) it was easy for her to carry out.
I still think the ONLY reason for taking food outta the freezer to take to TL's was cause that's where she put the lil body of Caylee til she figured out the next step. She needed to make room for the corpse in the freezer.

I think there will be so many more gruesome details that will come out and we haven't heard yet.

 

[LolaMoon08]

I think the night of the fight Cindy ordered KC to MOVE OUT of the house and she meant it. She was essentially Throwing her out onto the streets, TL, or wherever KC could bum free rent. In some of the depositions this was mentioned by ? friends-
This was a crucial turning point for KC. She could find a place to live, but not with "Snothead" (sorry) so her decision was easy and in her emotional state (rage) it was easy for her to carry out.
I still think the ONLY reason for taking food outta the freezer to take to TL's was cause that's where she put the lil body of Caylee til she figured out the next step. She needed to make room for the corpse in the freezer.

I think there will be so many more gruesome details that will come out and we haven't heard yet.

The freezer in the Anthony kitchen?? I know JA made some mention of bodies in freezer's at some point and it completely threw me off?

 

[enelram]

No, there was a large freezer in the garage. And remember during questioning of Cindy during one deposition, LE honed in on just what they used the freezer for- ??- and what things were kept there, etc. Thought it was odd he was pursuing " the freezer".

 

[lowens1975]

If Casey Anthony is found guilty of murdering Caylee, then she will be accountable for her crimes. But was she born "this way" - capable of such a hideous crime - or is the Anthony household a major contributing factor. In that sense, I would see both her parents as responsible for Caylee's death.

:wagon: LOVE the Pinocchio pic!

You referring to Nature vs. Nurture? The percentage ratio varies, but in ICA's case, I think Nurture won out with the highest percentage. CA kept reins tight on everyone in that household, yet what's funny is that nobody seemed to be doing what she wanted them to do anyway, :floorlaugh:

I see them as partially responsible. They walked around with blinders on for the better part of two years and only made inquiries into taking Caylee away from Casey, not actually making an effort to really do it. And that cost them the life of their granddaughter.

 

[LolaMoon08]

No, there was a large freezer in the garage. And remember during questioning of Cindy during one deposition, LE honed in on just what they used the freezer for- ??- and what things were kept there, etc. Thought it was odd he was pursuing " the freezer".

If I am remembering this correctly, I could have swore that JA asked Dr. Vass something about freezer's? I could be remembering wrong?

So my question would be... if Casey did put Caylee in this freezer? Maybe until the 19th when she borrowed the shovel... would it, not stop the decomposition process, but at least stall it temporarily enough to when Casey was unable to bury Caylee in the backyard, she then placed Caylee in the trunk of the car on the 19th? 20th?... and the 2.6 days would bring us to the 21st-23rd of Caylee being left in the trunk of the car before being placed in the woods? Maybe even the 24th after George confronted her?

I hate that we will never know exactly what happened.

 

[enelram]

My OLD brain has a hard time remembering some of the timeline now, but when we were originally given the decomp. information, it did fit- that she WAS in the freezer for a period of time. If true, what was she thinking? Risking the chance that CA would discover her body? Maybe that was part of her thoughts of PAYBACK for mean ole mommy CA ordering her outa the house and onto the strees.

 

[LambChop]

The freezer in the Anthony kitchen?? I know JA made some mention of bodies in freezer's at some point and it completely threw me off?

The medical examiner never mentioned the remains were placed in a freezer which she would be able to detect from the remains. And this is headed way off topic. jmo

 

[lowens1975]

If I am remembering this correctly, I could have swore that JA asked Dr. Vass something about freezer's? I could be remembering wrong?

So my question would be... if Casey did put Caylee in this freezer? Maybe until the 19th when she borrowed the shovel... would it, not stop the decomposition process, but at least stall it temporarily enough to when Casey was unable to bury Caylee in the backyard, she then placed Caylee in the trunk of the car on the 19th? 20th?... and the 2.6 days would bring us to the 21st-23rd of Caylee being left in the trunk of the car before being placed in the woods? Maybe even the 24th after George confronted her?

I hate that we will never know exactly what happened.

I can't go with the 'Caylee in the Freezer' theory. It's obvious that the A's used it for storing frozen dinners and ice pops, what if Cindy came home from work, say GA or ICA wasn't there and she was there by herself, what would stop her from opening the freezer and rummaging around for a fast TV dinner or an ice pop to eat while watching TV in the evening? I think Caylee's body was put in the trunk not long after she passed away, if not immediately, with nothing in between her and the carpet/lining of the trunk. Caylee is in there for two or three days until Casey can come up with some idea of how to cover the whole thing up. She comes up with the idea that SODDI while she's backed up in garage after the failed attempt make it it look like an accident (moving the pool ladder) to bury her in the backyard and grabs what she has at hand to work with, the tape, the garbage bags and the laundry container and drives around the corner and dumps the body.

 

[ynotdivein]

Please steer this conversation back to the topic of the fight between Casey/Cindy.

Thanks all!