Discussion between the verdict and sentencing

[Cherwell]

As per timelines, The only thing that can be determined from :

- Mike Nhlegenthwa's evidence is that OP was crying loudly “No, please, no, no” AFTER ~3:15AM (the last bang)

- Eonite Nhlegenthwa's evidence is that OP shouted H-H-H AFTER ~3:15AM (the last bang)

- Carice Stander's evidence is that OP shouted H-H-H BEFORE 3:19:03AM (phone call to Stander)

- Rica Motshuane's evidence is that OP was crying loudly AFTER 3:22:27AM

… all these Defence witnesses provide information AFTER the last bang of the SECOND set of bangs AND they cannot contribute any information to events in question.

None of this evidence can corroborate nor refute OP's version of events as per what happened BEFORE the last bang of the second set of bangs, which is the crux of the case.

Basically, these Defence witnesses ALL provide information AFTER Reeva was already shot 3 times regardless if you believe the gunshots or the bat-strikes were first or second.

… so how on earth can the evidence from these witnesses contradict the evidence from Dr. Stipp, Mrs. Stipp, Johnson and Burger who witnessed what happened BEFORE the last bang of the SECOND set of bangs, ie. BEFORE Reeva was shot ??????????

In MasipaWorld, because the defence witnesses did not hear something, it proves that there was nothing to hear.
Everyone else was mistaken, or imagined it.

 

[AW2B]

No… Dr. Stipp heard 2 set of "shots"… the first set woke him up, the second set was minutes afterwards when he was already awake… he believed that both sets were gunshots

I was referring to this..I think those additional shots he heard at 3:17 were possibly the bat strikes. I think Dr. Stipp is the most reliable witness..

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Pistorius father: I haven't spoken to Oscar since shooting

Henke Pistorius, the athlete's 61-year-old father, says he was "too strict" with his son and hasn't spoken to athlete since Pistorius shot girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp

Pistorius's father said that while Steenkamp's death is "every parent's nightmare" he has had tougher times: when he realised his son was born without normal legs. Pistorius was born without a fibula in both legs and his parents decided to amputate his legs below the knee in an effort to improve his mobility.

"The time just after Oscar was born, when we realised he was different from other little kids, was harder for me," said Mr Pistorius. "When I had to make decisions that could make or break his life."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-I-havent-spoken-to-Oscar-since-shooting.html

And there we have it, Henke had it harder because his son was different from other little kids and the Steenkamps, well they just lost a daughter. Phfffft.

 

[AJ_DS]

BBM

To me ..it's evidence that something of a violent nature was going on BEFORE the murder. This evidence is indeed corroborated by the witness who heard a loud argument. For example. they had a fight.. Reeva was getting ready to leave the house..she got her jeans ..he grabbed them and threw them out the bathroom window..

I cannot find an innocent explanation of the location of Reeva's jeans being under the bathroom window..

I cannot come up with one either…

That being said, I understand that the jeans are not incriminating per se nor do they automatically contradict OP's version…

… whereas the small fan which is an integral part of OP's version of events, being found in the wrong place, unplugged and with no available electric outlets to be plugged into contradicts OP's version of events in a major way… it does not prove that OP knew he was shooting at Reeva but it tends to prove that his version is fabricated.

If one considers what Police had to do and the order in which they had to do it to tamper with the crime scene, it becomes totally ludicrous.

I'll attempt it with best recollection :

1- Unplug small fan from muti-plug
2- Move small fan to the corner of the bedroom next to the speaker
3- Move small fan lead neatly in front of small fan
4- Open balcony black-out curtains wide
5- Open balcony curtains not as wide
6- Open balcony right-hand door
7- Turn off large fan
8- Move large fan to balcony entrance so as to block access to the balcony
9- Rearrange position of large fan electrical lead, multi-plug lead and multi-plug so as to make sure large fan does not appear to have been moved
10- Plug hair clipper charger into multi-plug
11- Place duvet on the floor in front of large fan, further blocking access to the balcony
12- Gather some blood carefully in the bathroom with a pipette and create a blood trail that goes from carpet to the duvet
13- Place jeans next to the duvet with a small portion overlapping the duvet



… all this without any knowledge whatsoever of OP's version of events.

 

[Cherwell]

Pistorius father: I haven't spoken to Oscar since shooting

Henke Pistorius, the athlete's 61-year-old father, says he was "too strict" with his son and hasn't spoken to athlete since Pistorius shot girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp

Pistorius's father said that while Steenkamp's death is "every parent's nightmare" he has had tougher times: when he realised his son was born without normal legs. Pistorius was born without a fibula in both legs and his parents decided to amputate his legs below the knee in an effort to improve his mobility.

"The time just after Oscar was born, when we realised he was different from other little kids, was harder for me," said Mr Pistorius. "When I had to make decisions that could make or break his life."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-I-havent-spoken-to-Oscar-since-shooting.html

And there we have it, Henke had it harder because his son was different from other little kids and the Steenkamps, well they just lost a daughter. Phfffft.

Hmmm. Are you sure he doesn't mean that the "parent's nightmare" is his child getting into trouble for killing somebody?
I doubt he's given the Steenkamps a thought.

 

[AJ_DS]

I was referring to this..I think those additional shots he heard at 3:17 were possibly the bat strikes. I think Dr. Stipp is the most reliable witness..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***

You are confused about the evidence…

Dr. Stipps spoke with Baba moments after he heard the second set of shots which he believed were gunshots

The 3:15 / 3:17 fiasco does not come from Dr. Stipps testimony… Stipp talked to Baba at 3:15:51

3:17 comes from Johnson's notes and clock from his phone… he wrote 3:16AM and 58 seconds duration of call… but he specifically said that he does not remember if 3:16 is the start time or the end time of the call… all he remembers is that he heard shots seconds after hanging up the phone.

Putting aside the issue that 3:16 is not a server time but a personal clock which could be fast or slow compared to the server clock…

I believe Johnson would have wanted to pinpoint the time of the shots… and since the shots occurred seconds after he hung up the phone he wrote down the call end time 3:16

Johnson gunshots = seconds after 3:16

Stipp gunshots = seconds before 3:15:51

There is a less than a minute of discrepancy which can be easily explained by the lack of precision in Johnson's 3:16:?? ( which could be a rounding of 3:15:5?) and the source of the time server vs. personal clock

The Nhlegenthwa's heard a loud bang that woke them up moments before 3:16:13

The 3:15:51 and 3:16:13 come from the same source (the server) and they both corroborate that the second set of shots occurred around 3:15:??

As for the first set of shots… the only time we have is Mrs. Stipp 3:02 read from a clock :

- This 3:02 could be correct and NOTHING in the evidence contradicts that it is impossible that the 1st and 2nd set of shots were 13 minutes apart… the only thing that bugs pro-Pistorius individuals is that they say it is impossible that the Stipps did nothing for 13 minutes whilst they heard a woman screaming… the fact is that they did do something… they tried calling many numbers but failed.

- This 3:02 could be a mistake of various possible origins… it could very well be 3:12 instead of 3:02

… in both cases, there is absolutely no valid legal reason to dismiss the testimony of 4 corroborated witnesses on the basis of a 3:02 testimonial evidence of a single witness.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

Hmmm. Are you sure he doesn't mean that the "parent's nightmare" is his child getting into trouble for killing somebody?
I doubt he's given the Steenkamps a thought.

Yes you're right, I'm reading it the wrong way, lol.

 

[foxbluff]

Silverwoods Estate witness locations (aerial) is an alternative view of the estate based on a satellite image taken on 20 May 2013. It shows the vacant plots clearly. Just need to figure which is the Johnson / Burger house now.

Bless you Mr.Fos !! We have needed this from day one of the trial and need it just as much now. Great job by you and PrimeSuspect !! Ty.

O/T - I was able to print Prime's aerial view... now if only somebody could tell me how to print Mr.Fos's... grrh...

 

[mrjitty]

In MasipaWorld, because the defence witnesses did not hear something, it proves that there was nothing to hear.
Everyone else was mistaken, or imagined it.

Agreed.

 

[AW2B]

You are confused about the evidence…

Dr. Stipps spoke with Baba moments after he heard the second set of shots which he believed were gunshots

The 3:15 / 3:17 fiasco does not come from Dr. Stipps testimony… Stipp talked to Baba at 3:15:51

3:17 comes from Johnson's notes and clock from his phone… he wrote 3:16AM and 58 seconds duration of call… but he specifically said that he does not remember if 3:16 is the start time or the end time of the call… all he remembers is that he heard shots seconds after hanging up the phone.

Putting aside the issue that 3:16 is not a server time but a personal clock which could be fast or slow compared to the server clock…

I believe Johnson would have wanted to pinpoint the time of the shots… and since the shots occurred seconds after he hung up the phone he wrote down the call end time 3:16

Johnson gunshots = seconds after 3:16

Stipp gunshots = seconds before 3:15:51

There is a less than a minute of discrepancy which can be easily explained by the lack of precision in Johnson's 3:16:?? ( which could be a rounding of 3:15:5?) and the source of the time server vs. personal clock

The Nhlegenthwa's heard a loud bang that woke them up moments before 3:16:13

The 3:15:51 and 3:16:13 come from the same source (the server) and they both corroborate that the second set of shots occurred around 3:15:??

BBM

I got my info from the timeline thread (I quoted it in my previous post)..unless it's incorrect..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***

 

[AJ_DS]

BBM

I got my info from the timeline thread (I quoted it in my previous post)..unless it's incorrect..

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?237843-Timeline-Thread-***NO-DISCUSSION***

It is.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Bless you Mr.Fos !! We have needed this from day one of the trial and need it just as much now. Great job by you and PrimeSuspect !! Ty.

O/T - I was able to print Prime's aerial view... now if only somebody could tell me how to print Mr.Fos's... grrh...

File Print works for me (tested using different browser, different anonymous user)

 

[AJ_DS]

Not pointing fingers at anyone…

Here is an example of how evidence gets muddled up…

For what it's worth (probably not much!) this is what I think happened that night:

3.10 - Mrs Stipp wakes and misreads her clock as 3.02. It actually reads 3.12 and is running approx 2 mins fast.

She & Dr hear bangs followed by immediate screaming. Mrs Stipp looks immediately and bathroom lights are on.

The bangs are caused by OP using the cricket bat, and Reeva is either in the bedroom or the hall. Not the toilet at this stage. The bathroom window is open.

Both Stipp's move to the balconies. Mrs Stipp hears the female screams getting closer. Reeva has run into the bathroom closer to the window.

3.11 or so, Burger & Johnson are woken by the screams.

Reeva and OP are in the bathroom and can both be heard by both couples. Reeva screams "help" OP mimics her. The further away couple can make out the words, the closer couple just hear it as male/female screaming and yells.

As the screaming continues, both couples start trying to call for help. This is around 3.13.

OP goes for his gun. Reeva's screams intensify and she locks herself in the toilet. OP shoots her through the door almost as soon as he gets into the bathroom.

Her last screams are quieter than previously because she is now in the toilet and could be described as "fading" to the further away couple.

Johnson concludes his call to the wrong security company at about 3.15. His phone is a minute fast and records this as 3.16. Moments later he hears....

3.15:30 BANG BANG BANG

3.15:30 Mikes are woken by last bang

3.15:51 21 seconds later Stipp finally gets through to security to tell them he has just heard shots and screams.

No more screams, let alone female ones, are heard by anyone that night.

3.16:50 Mr Mike calls security after quickly checking his house.

Having shot Reeva, OP is instantly aware of the Stipp's - probably hears Mrs Stipp calling to her husband, and maybe even sees their silhouettes on the balcony. He knows they'll call police & security. In panic, he rushes to the balcony to shout "help".

He runs downstairs and calls Stander. He blurts out the only thing he can think of, "I thought it was a burglar". Having settled on this he then calls Netcare. I do not believe that he had a conversation with them, nor that they told him to take Reeva to hospital. I think he dialled the number for appearances sake, left it to ring on the counter while opening the front door and then went back and hung up. He tried to call Stander again, perhaps to tell him the door was open, and accidentally dialled Security which was next to Stander in the phone book. In his panic, he was all fingers and thumbs with the phone and misdialled several times. When security called him back, he did not want them there so told them everything was fine.

(The reason for us not hearing about the call to Medicare is, I believe, because they simply have no record of it. It is inconceivable that, if there was a witness who could say that Pistorius called and told them what had happened and was advised to put her in his car, Roux would 100% have put them on the stand. No question. Nel cannot put them on the stand to say they have no record of a call, or any employee who recalls talking to him because if the evidence that he did in fact make a call. They weren't calked because they had nothing whatsoever to say).

At this stage, I believe that OP was planning to tell Stander that he shot Reeva by accident and to ask him to help cover that up, because the police would never believe that. He was hoping the Standers would somehow support a tale that had someone breaking in and using his gun to shoot Reeva.

He realised that the state of the bathroom showed a fight and he did not want Stander to see that, so ran upstairs to bring Reeva down.

Going into the bathroom, he picked up the bat again, prised out a panel and opened the door. He dragged her instantly out into the bathroom, picked her up and carried her downstairs.

As he got to the landing, he paused because he could hear voices and realised that there was more people outside than just Stander. When he saw Carice he began walking down the stairs again.

I believe his distress was real - but I believe it was mostly for himself. I think his resuscitation efforts were for effect...if he'd actually wanted to resuscitate her, he would have done it in the bathroom.

Dr Stipp showing up prevented him from trying to cook up a cover story with the Standers. Who, incidentally, I don't believe would have gone along with it....but he was hoping at that stage that they would.

I may be a few seconds or more out here and there, but this is more or less what I think happened that night.

The Nhlegenthwa's called security at 3:16:13 it was busy, they called back at 3:16:36… I don't know where 3.16:50 comes from ????

 

[AW2B]

I cannot come up with one either…

That being said, I understand that the jeans are not incriminating per se nor do they automatically contradict OP's version…

… whereas the small fan which is an integral part of OP's version of events, being found in the wrong place, unplugged and with no available electric outlets to be plugged into contradicts OP's version of events in a major way… it does not prove that OP knew he was shooting at Reeva but it tends to prove that his version is fabricated.

If one considers what Police had to do and the order in which they had to do it to tamper with the crime scene, it becomes totally ludicrous.

I'll attempt it with best recollection :

1- Unplug small fan from muti-plug
2- Move small fan to the corner of the bedroom next to the speaker
3- Move small fan lead neatly in front of small fan
4- Open balcony black-out curtains wide
5- Open balcony curtains not as wide
6- Open balcony right-hand door
7- Turn off large fan
8- Move large fan to balcony entrance so as to block access to the balcony
9- Rearrange position of large fan electrical lead, multi-plug lead and multi-plug so as to make sure large fan does not appear to have been moved
10- Plug hair clipper charger into multi-plug
11- Place duvet on the floor in front of large fan, further blocking access to the balcony
12- Gather some blood carefully in the bathroom with a pipette and create a blood trail that goes from carpet to the duvet
13- Place jeans next to the duvet with a small portion overlapping the duvet

View attachment 59886

… all this without any knowledge whatsoever of OP's version of events.

BBM

IMO..the location of Reeva's jeans does INDIRECTLY contradict Pistorius's version. Can you find a logical explanation for their location based on his story? I think not..I think that's exactly why we are discussing their odd location.

 

[AJ_DS]

BBM

IMO..the location of Reeva's jeans does INDIRECTLY contradict Pistorius's version. Can you find a logical explanation for their location based on his story? I think not..I think that's exactly why we are discussing their odd location.

I get what you are saying…

We have no evidence that Reeva's jeans ended up outside the house during the events of that night, do we?

Reeva's jeans do not appear in OP's version of events, do they?

Must OP's version of events provide a logical explanation for everything that was photographed ?… Obviously not.

There are many possible explanation for the jeans being found outside… surely some more probable than others… but in all these explanations some will have nothing to do with the events and some will… tis is why IMO, the jeans were not addressed because they were not probative to the case.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

I guess this is where Frank lived...



http://www.allmystery.de/themen/np111142-7

 

[AW2B]

I get what you are saying…

We have no evidence that Reeva's jeans ended up outside the house during the events of that night, do we?

Reeva's jeans do not appear in OP's version of events, do they?

Must OP's version of events provide a logical explanation for everything that was photographed ?… Obviously not.

There are many possible explanation for the jeans being found outside… surely some more probable than others… but in all these explanations some will have nothing to do with the events and some will… tis is why IMO, the jeans were not addressed because they were not probative to the case.

I respectfully disagree..

1- It's a rare and uncommon event to find jeans under bathroom windows!

+

2-This rare uncommon event happened on the same day the owner of those jeans was murdered!

+

3-She was murdered in the toilet area ..her shooter was standing in the BATHROOM..her jeans were found under the window of said bathroom..

=

The location of Reeva's jeans is connected to her murder which would contradict Pistorius's story..

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I guess this is where Frank lived...

View attachment 59891

http://www.allmystery.de/themen/np111142-7

What a great find MS. Frank's room is quite a way from OP's bedroom so he might genuinely not heard the commotion.

 

[Sherbert]

I respectfully disagree..

1- It's a rare and uncommon event to find jeans under bathroom windows!

+

2-This rare uncommon event happened on the same day the owner of those jeans was murdered!

+

3-She was murdered in the toilet area ..her shooter was standing in the BATHROOM..her jeans were found under the window of said bathroom..

=

The location of Reeva's jeans is connected to her murder which would contradict Pistorius's story..

I also feel that the issue of the jeans should have been addressed.

And, let's face it, whatever the answer was, things could hardly have got any worse for the State.

Not that we knew that at the time, of course.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Does anyone have any theories on the bullet hole in the bedroom door?

That night? A previous occasion? Could this have been the first bangs the Stipp's heard?

could well have been. some violent event also happened at that door, imo. [part of the escalation of the argument/fury]

listening to the stipps evidence again...
mrs stipp says three bangs... no mention of rapid succession... no mention of how far apart the bangs were...

who knows, it could have been:
reeva in the bedroom having blocked the door with the cricket bat [in the odd way op described]. op on the other side with the airgun [the upstairs tv room]
bang - op fires airgun at the bedroom door, and starts barging it.
reeva runs away down the corridor to the bathroom. oscar breaks through the door, picks up the bat and chases her.
bang - reeva gets into toilet cubicle, slams the door and locks it.
bang - op smashes the toilet door frame with the cricket bat.