Discussion Thread #61 ~ the appeal~

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I don`t think poorly of OP for his courting of the media, as for better or worse it is part of the businesses of sports and entertainment, but to claim that he didn`t do it is just ludicrous. In fact for someone with a limited shelf life when it came to his career it would have been foolish for him not to try and maintain a high profile for future career moves. He came across as somewhat dim in the court case, but not that dim IMO.

Forgot that last point. Totally agree and said same previously. Many athletes would love to have those opportunities. His was a great narrative in the SA context and he represented so much*. Any high achieving star/celeb knows that there is often a price to be paid, a downside and that's without committing homicide.

*However even those who were his main advocates in the SA press/international sports writers have said he had "changed" in latter years/ugly reality surfaced and are honest re. the collusion to maintain the narrative in contrast to the real Oscar. I'm sure to a fan, that view is abhorrent.
 
Forget that last point. Totally agree and said same previously. Many athletes would love to have those opportunities. His was a great narrative in the SA context and he represented so much*. Any high achieving star/celeb knows that there is often a price to be paid, a downside and that's without committing homicide.

*However even those who were his main advocates in the SA press/international sports writers have said he had "changed" in latter years/ugly reality surfaced and are honest re. the collusion to maintain the narrative in contrast to the real Oscar. I'm sure to a fan, that view is abhorrent.

Yes, after he killed RS all the stories began to come out about his transformation from a generally pleasant and genial person into something of a prima donna, throwing tantrums when he lost and using the `Don`t you know who I am` line when crossed in public. I guess that was a combination of part of his personality and the corrupting influence of fame. Like you I had little knowledge of him beyond a superficial awareness of who he was and became mainly interested in the crime through wondering whether his wealth and fame would influence the progress of the trial and its eventual outcome which, IMO, it most certainly did.
 
Like you I had little knowledge of him beyond a superficial awareness of who he was and became mainly interested in the crime through wondering whether his wealth and fame would influence the progress of the trial and its eventual outcome which, IMO, it most certainly did.

RSBM

Yes, pity the poor souls still stuck for years in "general population" in those SA prisons with virtually no healthcare, awaiting their trial. ( The disabled who don't even have access to a wheelchair in there. )

I believe that Masipa set out thinking that this case would NOT demonstrate advantage for a rich whitey but that happened over & over again right from the outset.
 
Oh dear.

PPD may well be a defence to DE. But Masipa did not accept that he acted in self-defence. Self-defence is a complete defence to murder. He'd have been acquitted if she'd found that. He was convicted of CP.

In order to support any self defence claim you have to acknowledge intent. "Yes, I did intend to hurt that person...it was either that or they'd have killed me". You cannot kill someone in self-defence as a mistake. That's not what PPD means. The mistake is not that you killed them, but you genuinely thought you had reason to.

Pistorius sabotaged any hope he had of claiming self defence by insisting that he never intended to shoot anyone.....four times, with a pause while he changed trajectory.

Mrs VDM was under the impression that she was hearing an argument. Reeva or not, she probably did...unless you think there was likely to be a woman talking loudly to herself nearby. A woman who has never come forward, by the way. The language is totally irrelevant.

Mrs VDM thought the sobbing sounded like a woman.
Mr VDM said it was male.
Mr Mike said it was male.
Mrs Mike said it was male.
The other lady neighbour said it was male.
The doctor said it was male.
Mr Baba who only heard sobbing down the phone knew it was Oscar and did not mistake it for a female.

One person...who has been up all night listening to a loud woman's voice.....out of 7 thinking it was female equals "highly likely that Oscar sounds like a woman". Er....no. It makes it highly likely that in fact he doesn't.

The evidence does not show that Reeva did not scream. The evidence indicates strongly that she did. Someone was screaming and sounding to absolutely everyone who heard it exactly like a woman.

If Pistorius can achieve this remarkable feat, why not scream so the court can hear? Roux admitted they'd recorded him screaming, but this was never played to the court. Why on earth not. Clearly because he sounded nothing at all like a woman, and they knew it. Oh, but wait....he couldn't replicate it because he wasn't anxious enough that time? Seriously? This snivelling, sobbing, puking wreck of a man facing life imprisonment couldn't manage one single scream that sounded female?

Let's not be silly, eh?

Oh and I have watched it on YT thanks.

Oh dear indeed. I see that you haven't mentioned the phone times at all. Note that it's not that he sounded like a woman but that the neighbours mistook his cries for those of a woman. There is a distinction. Mrs VdM's evidence showed that his cries could be mistaken for those of a woman so there was no need to provide a tape. I'm not clear what that would have proven anyway, as the whole point is that several people in different places interpreted the same sounds differently.
 
@ Trotterly

I remember OP's race against a horse.

Who do you think had an interest in media reports about this spectacle ?

Without giving too much away: it wasn't in the interest of the horse :D
.
.

Was this not many years after he became well known at the 2004 Olympics which was only a short time after taking up running?

He was already famous by the time he was racing horses.
 
Was this not many years after he became well known at the 2004 Olympics which was only a short time after taking up running?

He was already famous by the time he was racing horses.

Re BIB - to be blunt, so what? It shows that he was willing to participate in a gimmicky publicity stunt when he could have just said `Thanks, but no` were he not interested in having a high celebrity-style media profile and the benefits that flowed from that.
 
Trotterly...you are missing quite a few points, I think.

Firstly, maybe you're right and OP launched his sports career for the love of it rather than the glory. Most sports people do. And no one has ever sought to diminish his achievements in his career - they were (and remain) truly outstanding.

Maybe I am, I don't know and the point is neither does anyone else who has posted. It was seen as "fair game" to chuck another brickbat at OP without really caring whether it was factually correct or not. The comment was an accusation and not intended in any neutral or fair way.

But didn't (later) seek the limelight? You seriously have to be joking! He did adverts for Nike!!! He gave endless magazine and television interviews, he went on the SA version of Strictly Come Dancing, he showed up for the opening of every glitzy envelope possible and was photographed with a succession of blonds - the last being Reeva.

And you know what...I don't blame him. We all have to make a living, and his sports career had a shelf life. So fine. Just a bit repellent when he tried to have himself painted in court as St Oscar, devoted to children, spending his own money kitting them out with Nike trainers when actually, he was paid for those appearances and got the trainers free.

Roux is an effective, well paid lawyer, who was painting his client in the best possible light. Par for the course wouldn't you say?

And while I don't believe the evidence against him was remotely shakey, the appeal is not about challenging the ruling on facts. It's challenging on the basis that, Reeva or not, Pistorius knew he was shooting at a human being in the toilet and the human being would very possibly die. This is Dolus Eventualis

(The door was shut so strictly he couldn't have known there was a person in the toilet even if he ever said that he knew.)
For DE the state must prove (from other evidence) that he knew that what he was doing would kill whoever was behind the door.


By his own admission, Pistorius knew there was a human being in the toilet and he shot them four times. Masipa tried to excuse him from this by saying that he couldn't have known he'd hurt anyone because Reeva was in bed.

Not entirely. She also said that it applied to anyone else who was behind the door. Whilst being misleading I think the important question is whether she reached the right decision, which I think she did. Although technically she could not have reached the right decision given the chronology of her reasoning. However I think this will be quite rightly revisited by the appeal court who will reach a similar verdict. I say this because OP's state of mind - from his own evidence - points to a lack of intention (direct or otherwise) up to the point that he pulled the trigger.


Think for a minute about that: he couldn't have intended to hurt the intruder that he claimed to believe was in the toilet because he thought his girlfriend was in bed.

That is a fallacy of equivocation on quite an astonishing scale. I will be astounded in five judges all agree with her. Five 8 year olds wouldn't.

She then made it worse by saying that he couldn't have intended to hurt the intruder because he gave his girlfriend mouth to mouth when he saw he'd shot her. And he proved that he didn't intend to hurt the intruder by crying over his dead girlfriend.

I think there's a very serious chance he'll go back to prison for DE and be there for considerably longer than 10 lousy months.

Oh - and to add...you keep saying that it was proven that Mrs VDM heard a male crying at the same time as the others heard a female screaming. No.

Mrs VDM heard the arguing, then heard a bang. Some minutes later she and her husband heard the male crying. Her husband then called the security line (same one as Mr Mike and Dr Thingy) and shortly afterwards they saw ambulances.

We know that the first caller to the security line was the doctor, closely followed by Mr Mike. So, whatever time Mr VDM called the security number (minutes after hearing male crying) we know it was after Reeva was dead because it was after the first two had made their calls....at which time both were reporting hearing a male sobbing too. Neither heard anyone screaming at the point, least of all a woman.

Mrs VDM never heard the screaming....she heard an argument. She then heard the male sobbing after the last set of bangs. So you are incorrect.

Note that everyone who heard a female screaming heard it before the second set of bangs.
Note that everyone who heard a male sobbing heard it after the second bangs.
Note that the doctor heard both the female screaming and then the male sobbing and did not confuse the two.
Note that all four of the witnesses were under the distinct impression that a couple were involved. The doctor's specific reason for even heading to the house was because he thought that there had been a family murder and children might be involved.

There is not the faintest doubt in my mind that Reeva screamed. It is ludicrous beyond all reason to imagine that that was Pistorius who not only managed to sound like two people, but also stopped screaming like a woman pretty much at the moment that the only woman in the house died, and then confined himself to sounding like a man.

Reeva screamed and that makes Pistorius guilty. No question.

I find Mr VDM's statement particularly powerful given its spontaneity and context and that it came from the lips of a prosecution witness. Even in isolation it seeds doubt about how the other witnesses interpreted what they heard. The timeline fixed around Dr Stipps 3.17 10111 call then places screams and "loud crying" in the same time frame. But I'm sure I don't have to re-tread that ground.

BIB replies
 
Yeah - 12 Angry Men -one of my favourites - ( incidentally taught a short block on that in a previous career, so know it very well.) What's your particular analogy? You can't be likening yourself to R.Rose ( Henry Fonda) the master of rational argument and dogged persistence whose winning ways & logic change minds and vanquish prejudice? For that you'll need to get into the nitty-gritty I'm afraid.

"Not telling"? I already "told"
I gave you the respect by taking the time to answer your question in full yesterday.

Your dispute was another poster saying, a few pages back, that OP " chose to earn a living " via the limelight . Because the mass of "answers" didn't suit you - from any quarter and a number of posters you did not re-butt any of them but decided to split hairs and narrow the point down until it became totally pointless.
Your line became ( although of course you won't outline it in any detail) : OP at age 16 did not choose fame/the limelight.
That was never the posters original point and I imagine you know that.

As I explained the business of maintaining a profile which becomes your main source of revenue via PR, sponsorship, marketing & merchandising is one you must develop and maintain over years, it is not a one-off, single, choice which after you make it, you then do not engage with - it does not work like that. Maybe it's semantics. Famous - renowned - celebrated.....notorius.....forgotten.

I know you said something along the lines of " once your famous you cannot be forgotten/unfamous" but that is also patently untrue. All the top PR firms might as well shut shop today mightn't they. Have you ever heard of a "has-been"? Can you think of any famous people who use PR firms to represent their interests and appreciate how huge and lucrative that industry has become ?

"It might help you deal with the result of the appeal a little better." The word I used was "disappointment" about his upcoming house- arrest, which appears to be almost universally shared. I haven't booked myself into psychodynamic therapy just yet.
Ultimately, the bigger issue is SA crime, criminal justice & their penal system. What's happened in this case just serves to shine a light on that and how "young" a nation SA is really is.

I too have a connection to that particular story..... meet me on the courthouse steps after it's all over.

I don't think you can be made unfamous can you? Not within the sort of timescales that are relevant here anyway.
 
What I find the oddest thing about people who were/are so pleased with the verdict and now this house arrest issue is the obvious delight they take in such a light sentence. Forget the debates about the evidence or the judge`s flaws or lack thereof or the antics of the Pistorius clan. It is not only odd but disturbing that there are people who make the claim that wishing for a harsh sentence for Pistorius says more about the wishers than it does about him while at the same time seemingly never pausing to consider what their apparent attitude that blasting a terrified woman to death is no big deal, just an accident, we all make mistakes, he was a jumpy chap ad nauseum says about them.

I don't think anyone wishing for a harsher sentence says anything about OP, only (to be charitable) about how that person has evaluated the evidence. Getting emotionally involved in the alleged crime doesn't help reasoned argument in fact it can introduce bias into ones judgement. It was a terrible thing that happened to Reeva no doubt and that should never be forgotten but it should be put aside when trying to decide on OP's guilt. Not because it may or may not have been an accident but because it just does not help.

BTW I think he was a little more than just a "jumpy chap" according to expert testimony.
 
RSBM

Yes, pity the poor souls still stuck for years in "general population" in those SA prisons with virtually no healthcare, awaiting their trial. ( The disabled who don't even have access to a wheelchair in there. )

I believe that Masipa set out thinking that this case would NOT demonstrate advantage for a rich whitey but that happened over & over again right from the outset.

That may well be true.

Also what chance the average innocent accused who does not have the financial resources to mount an effective defence?
 
FYI some recent headlines from The Age Newspaper, Australia:
http://www.theage.com.au/execute_search.html?text=pistorius&ss=theage.com.au/execute_search.html

Oscar Pistorius release date set angers Steenkamp family
Oscar Pistorius in court in 2014. The family of his slain former girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp is furious that he could be released in August.
Oscar Pistorius, the South African double amputee sprinter who shot dead his girlfriend, is scheduled to be freed on parole on August 21 after serving just 10 months in jail.

WORLD | KRISTEN VAN SCHIE | TUE JUN 09 07:00:51 EST 2015

Oscar Pistorius to be released on parole in August, family says
Oscar Pistorius and Reeva Steenkamp at a party in Johannesburg in 2012.
South African Olympic and Paralympic athlete Oscar Pistorius is set to be released from prison on parole in August after serving 10 months for culpable homicide in the killing of his model girlfriend...

WORLD | MON JUN 08 21:51:01 EST 2015

Pistorius to be released on parole
Pistorius to be released on parole (Thumbnail)Click to play video
Oscar Pistorius will be released from prison on parole in August after serving 10 months of a five-year sentence for the culpable homicide of his girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp.

VIDEO WORLD NEWS | TUE JUN 09 08:36:08 EST 2015

Pistorius fails in bid to stop prosecutors from pursuing murder verdict
A South African court on Friday struck down athlete Oscar Pistorius' bid to block prosecutors from appealing the culpable homicide verdict handed down against him, in favour of a murder conviction,...
 
But where is the evidence that he chose the spotlight in the first place rather than having the attention thrust upon him?

Once he had no choice he can hardly be blamed for making money in the same way as other top sports people.

HE went and walked the red carpet at a zillion celebrity events. You do not do that unless you WANT the spotlight. He took part in reality TV shows and he agreed to be interviewed in Celebrity rags and on various TV shows, NOT sports related either.
 
HE went and walked the red carpet at a zillion celebrity events. You do not do that unless you WANT the spotlight. He took part in reality TV shows and he agreed to be interviewed in Celebrity rags and on various TV shows, NOT sports related either.



OscarDancing.jpg
 
"How much is a woman's life worth? According to the South African justice system, precisely 10 months. The news comes amidst an epidemic of violence against women. There is no doubt that, however "well behaved" Pistorius has been in prison, releasing him after less than a year sends a message that implicitly accepts this violence. But there is another layer of injustice to how lenient the law has been on Pistorius".

He pleaded not guilty to the charge of murder and was acquitted on that charge. He maintained it was an accident. Although there was no evidence of a break-in, he always maintained he thought it was an intruder behind the door.

After serving only 10 months in prison, he'll be walking free from prison after shooting and killing Reeva because he felt threatened by an intruder that existed only in his own mind. South Africa's legal system will be reinforcing the notion that an abstract fear of violent crime, one that is informed by paranoia rather than facts, is a reasonable justification for taking a human life.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa...y-release-tells-us-about-being-white-and-male
 
"How much is a woman's life worth? According to the South African justice system, precisely 10 months. The news comes amidst an epidemic of violence against women. There is no doubt that, however "well behaved" Pistorius has been in prison, releasing him after less than a year sends a message that implicitly accepts this violence. But there is another layer of injustice to how lenient the law has been on Pistorius".

He pleaded not guilty to the charge of murder and was acquitted on that charge. He maintained it was an accident. Although there was no evidence of a break-in, he always maintained he thought it was an intruder behind the door.

After serving only 10 months in prison, he'll be walking free from prison after shooting and killing Reeva because he felt threatened by an intruder that existed only in his own mind. South Africa's legal system will be reinforcing the notion that an abstract fear of violent crime, one that is informed by paranoia rather than facts, is a reasonable justification for taking a human life.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/world/africa...y-release-tells-us-about-being-white-and-male

So well said Judge Judy. IMHO.
 
HE went and walked the red carpet at a zillion celebrity events. You do not do that unless you WANT the spotlight. He took part in reality TV shows and he agreed to be interviewed in Celebrity rags and on various TV shows, NOT sports related either.

And he appeared in the 2010 Italian version of Survivor.
 

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