Duct Tape and Premeditation #500

[Baznme]

I don't know. I'm looking forward to what Dr. G has to say about that on the witness stand.

 

[miabellamoure]

I can't answer your question directly about the decomp. cells on the duct tape, but... 21/2 weeks ago I got to talk directly to a criminalist in California at a Crime Lab. I briefly filled him in on the case and asked if there might still be latent fingerprints on the duct tape that we didn't yet know about. His general answer was that water is very destructive to the tape, so the amount of time that the remains were under water probably washed away any of this type of evidence... not likely...

Then, I would have to wonder if the length of time the duct tape was under water...could that have destroyed any "postmortem cells" that could have been on the tape if the duct tape was actually applied post mortem?

 

[RANCH]

To me, the fact that the duct tape evidence proves the duct tape was applied Pre-Mortem is the nail in Casey's coffin. This is how the SA will prove it was premediated, no?

When you say decomp cells are you talking about DNA? Because DNA can be destroyed by being out in a swamp for many months. Testimony about pre mortem duct tape application is not good for Casey.

 

[Justin Tyme]

I totally agree.
Did it mean that everything else he said was right on but the part about "physical" and/or "chemical" restraint was wrong? So was she upset that she would be accused of that? (being accused of murdering her daughter doesn't bother her or wouldn't she be crying all the time when there is a hearing?) Or the theory about the duct tape was wrong and the "physical and chemical restraint" part was right on?
After typing this I think she didn't restrain Caylee. What that means I don't know but when "restraint" was mentioned she acted insulted. None of that makes sense unless you are a Sociopath.

She acted insulted because it didn't go along with her story of the drowning is my guess.

 

[Puzzler]

Then, I would have to wonder if the length of time the duct tape was under water...could that have destroyed any "postmortem cells" that could have been on the tape if the duct tape was actually applied post mortem?

It's my understanding that the length and wetness of the exposure destroyed all fingerprint and DNA evidence on the tape--not even Caylee's DNA was found.

Due to the relative positions of the tape, skull-bones, and hair, the coroner determined that the tape was applied "prior to decomposition"--but that can cover a lot of territory. There's no way to tell for sure if the tape went on before or after death. While I believe it likely the tape was the murder weapon, I'm not sure the state can prove it to a jury.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/06/19/caylee.anthony.autopsy.pdf

 

[cecybeans]

Here's the problem for me with it being applied post-mortem to stage a kidnapping. At that point, only one piece would be necessary, to make it look like it covered her mouth so she could not scream. If it was done in a hurry, it's certainly possible that the piece would have been long enough to extend into the hair.

But why on earth would anyone take the time to cut three separate strips of duct tape to put on an already dead child - particularly when they obviously covered both the nose and mouth, which would make it look like whoever "kidnapped" her didn't even want her to breathe? It's too much duct tape for a kidnapping prop, imo. It looks like whoever "kidnapped" her wanted her to die to begin with, regardless of anything else used. It LOOKS like a murder weapon and not a restraint.

 

[Lera213]

Here is my thinking on the tape. Caylee started to cry about something, and ICA was way mad, takes Caylee down stairs from TL apartment, smacks her, Caylee started to cry louder, ICA opens the trunk, in that blue crate was Duct Tape, she slapped that on her, closed the trunk and went back to bed with TL.

 

[Grammy Jean]

Here is my thinking on the tape. Caylee started to cry about something, and ICA was way mad, takes Caylee down stairs from TL apartment, smacks her, Caylee started to cry louder, ICA opens the trunk, in that blue crate was Duct Tape, she slapped that on her, closed the trunk and went back to bed with TL.

I do not believe for a second that Caylee was ever at TL apartment that night! Caylee was dead before KC and Tl went to Blockbuster!

 

[Lera213]

I do not believe for a second that Caylee was ever at TL apartment that night! Caylee was dead before KC and Tl went to Blockbuster!

Ok maybe after Casey left her moms and we heard the had a fight.

 

[Tuffy]

Ok maybe after Casey left her moms and we heard the had a fight.

I wouldn't buy for a second that Tony had any part in Caylee's murder, even as an accessory!

ETA- Do you mean at Tony's, or just somewhere after leaving her mom's house?

 

[Rallihanna]

i really hope that they can bring out in this trial all of this evidence.. that this was put on "before" she was dead... it totally takes the drowning out of any possible realm.

 

[strach304]

Here's the problem for me with it being applied post-mortem to stage a kidnapping. At that point, only one piece would be necessary, to make it look like it covered her mouth so she could not scream. If it was done in a hurry, it's certainly possible that the piece would have been long enough to extend into the hair.

But why on earth would anyone take the time to cut three separate strips of duct tape to put on an already dead child - particularly when they obviously covered both the nose and mouth, which would make it look like whoever "kidnapped" her didn't even want her to breathe? It's too much duct tape for a kidnapping prop, imo. It looks like whoever "kidnapped" her wanted her to die to begin with, regardless of anything else used. It LOOKS like a murder weapon and not a restraint.

If you notice the defense is keeping Casey way far away from that tape. Even though she claimed it was a kidnapping originally they have never claimed that or stopping fluids leaking were ever the case. No, GA used it to frame Casey for murder when he disposed of the body. They know there's no explanation for that tape that won't send her straight to death row.

 

[strach304]

I can't answer your question directly about the decomp. cells on the duct tape, but... 21/2 weeks ago I got to talk directly to a criminalist in California at a Crime Lab. I briefly filled him in on the case and asked if there might still be latent fingerprints on the duct tape that we didn't yet know about. His general answer was that water is very destructive to the tape, so the amount of time that the remains were under water probably washed away any of this type of evidence... not likely...

It astounds me with all the water involved that tape was still on there and stuck in the hair like that.

 

[benjaminfpierce]

I think Casey made a batch of chloroform and left it in the car that day without stabilizing it. It could have even been in an opaque chlorox container. The heat that day may have been enough to cause the chloroform to turn into phosgene. The container could have ruptured or the headspace contained enough phosgene to kill Caylee in 2-6hr from fluid in the lungs.

I think duct tape could have been applied to the mouth only without getting it in her hair. Post, she could have applied more duct tape over mouth, nose and around the hair to prevent the pinkish fluid from escaping. I think Caylee coughed up fluids & this is what caused the stain. Or it's from the bags being ruptured after moving in/out of the playhouse.

Phosgene is highly toxic even in small fractions ppm. This is not something mentioned in most how-to-make chloroform videos. And it's possible this is not something Casey read about.

Also, I think some of the compounds left out due to overlap with the gasoline VOC's are phosgene. They would be in a smaller concentration compared to the chloroform. But that much chloroform would most certainly have produced phosgene.

 

[txsvicki]

It's reasonable to conclude suffocation when a person is missing, then found deceased with the airways obstructed. It's also reasonable to conclude premeditation when there is motive, previous computer searches, and the person is covering up for why the deceased is missing. I sure hope Caylee was asleep, but who knows, the chloroform may not have worked and I don't believe even xanax would have kept any person completely asleep if unable to breath. The evidence probably shows that there was thrashing or struggle after the tape was applied. Struggle in trying to breath. There were either physical or chemical restraints that worked enough to keep the tape from being pulled off or scratched up, but not enough to prevent struggling or opening or moving the mouth around.

 

[Madeleine74]

I'm pretty 'clueless' about this duck tape and hair revelation, but when I was listening to testimony about the hair with the tell-tale banding of decomp, I wondered if the hair that was left on Caylee's head (and duck taped in place) would show this same banding or not.

Decomp to the point of it showing in the hair (as a telltale band) helps to prove that a deceased Caylee was in the trunk. I'm not sure, though, what state hair stuck in the duck tape, and found with the body should look like. Any thoughts on that?

I was thinking decomp hair band vs. no band would show when the duck tape was placed around Caylee's head (pre or post mortem). But I don't know enough to know if that could be true.

 

[ColdDayIn]

I'm pretty 'clueless' about this duck tape and hair revelation, but when I was listening to testimony about the hair with the tell-tale banding of decomp, I wondered if the hair that was left on Caylee's head (and duck taped in place) would show this same banding or not.

Decomp to the point of it showing in the hair (as a telltale band) helps to prove that a deceased Caylee was in the trunk. I'm not sure, though, what state hair stuck in the duck tape, and found with the body should look like. Any thoughts on that?

I was thinking decomp hair band vs. no band would show when the duck tape was placed around Caylee's head (pre or post mortem). But I don't know enough to know if that could be true.

I had the exact same thoughts when I started thinking about the hair. I wondered too if the hairs attached to the tape would have the banding or not.

 

[Madeleine74]

The other corroborating factor in showing the duck tape as being applied before death is the fact that a 3rd piece of tape was used. Why was a long 3rd piece needed? To keep the other 2 pieces in place, right? So why would the other 2 pieces come undone? Because an alive Caylee would try and grab at and remove or move the tape. A deceased Caylee would not be moving anything, therefore no 3rd piece of tape needed.

 

[Quiche]

The other corroborating factor in showing the duck tape as being applied before death is the fact that a 3rd piece of tape was used. Why was a long 3rd piece needed? To keep the other 2 pieces in place, right? So why would the other 2 pieces come undone? Because an alive Caylee would try and grab at and remove or move the tape. A deceased Caylee would not be moving anything, therefore no 3rd piece of tape needed.

Check this post for duct tape info., great work, imo.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5156832&postcount=379"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released[/ame]

 

[Robinez]

I think the third piece of duct tape was applied because the ends of the duct tape were not sticking properly and a third was needed because duct tape sticks to itself better.

I think that sweat was the reason that the tape wasn't sticking. I just hope that a dead body sweats. Because the alternative is too awful to imagine.

Take care, Robin