Elisa Lam - What Happened?

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Why did Elisa die?

  • Homicide/crime of opportunity - Murder due to chance encounter with someone on the day she died

    Votes: 162 47.4%
  • Homicide/preplanned - Elisa was lured to her death in a scheme planned before the day she died

    Votes: 46 13.5%
  • Accidental death - related to an altered mental state: drug induced, psychosis, sleep walking, etc.

    Votes: 86 25.1%
  • Suicide - Elisa intended to end her life due to mental issues/other

    Votes: 7 2.0%
  • Occult/supernatural/conspiracy - related to occult, supernatural phenomena or gov./other conspiracy

    Votes: 5 1.5%
  • Unsure/Do not know

    Votes: 36 10.5%

  • Total voters
    342
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My fellow crime fighters, Elisa's blood cries out.

Forgive for such long posts and so many of them, but I thought this post should go as close as possible to the related one above, where I showed that video doctoring by the police didn't make a lot of sense so that we should instead turn focus to the hotel staff. Let's polish our magnifying glasses and put on the eagle's eye; let's not miss a thing. I'm going to play the part of the murderer; I'm a hotel staffer who needs to doctor the video. Here's how I go about it.

But in this scenario, understand that Elisa was taken from the earth on her last night in the hotel because the guilty staffer wanted the police to believe that she left the hotel, and went missing elsewhere. That's how you can know that her bags and other property were not in her room at check out time, because the staffer made sure to remove them so that no one might have a clue that the hotel is where she died. In this picture, the staffer is not overly concerned about the body in the water tank because it appears that Elisa left the hotel. But just in case, he wants to doctor the elevator video because there is something damning on it. He is a staffer with access to the video room. Who might that be?

The police reported that they had in their possession some of Elisa's belongings. How could these belongings be from her room? For if they were from her room, the hotel staff would have known from day one that there was something wrong. My understanding is that the police or hotel were not alerted of any wrong until some days later when Elisa's parents called to inquire. So where did the police get some of her belongings if they were not from her room?

In this scenario, we have no choice but to assume that the original timestamp is in pixels, because there is no other way that the staffer can get away with his doctoring of the video.

Alright, I'm the murderer. I work in the hotel. I've got to change the video. I know that no other staffer views the security videos because its more boring than any human can take. I know I can alter the video while no other staffer or manager or owner will notice. But I've got to fool the police if it ever gets to that. I've got to remove the 24th minute where all the evidence appears against me and/or my friends. The police might notice the timestamp irregularity if I do that, however, so I've got to paste some timestamp in there to fool them into thinking that nothing's doctored. My problem is, I've got to blend in with the original timestamp at some point, and the place to do that is when the elevator goes down from the 14th floor. There's nothing of guilt evident from that point on.

[Pause. In other words, from the closing of the elevator door at 25:14, to 24:59, the timestamp reflects the true and original time.]

I see that Elisa has pressed the door-hold button at 22:09. I know that the door-hold button lasts two minutes long. The police will probably know this too, so I had better make the splice to reflect that more or less bang-on. My problem is, my splice goes to 25:14, and, besides, the door closes at 25:14. That's over three minutes long. So, I'll cut out just the right amount of time to make it appear that the door closes two minutes after 22:09, and hopefully the police won't learn to decipher the pixels. End of scenario.

The staffer is in a real pickle. And he makes mistakes out of what could be sloppiness. Better yet, he starts doctoring on one shift but doesn't finish, then can't get back to finishing for some reason. Perhaps the police notifies the hotel manager that the video system should be locked down. The staffer has now nailed his own coffin by leaving the video insufficiently doctored. The first problem, he had replaced the timestamp at the 24:00 mark with 21:00, but that was part of plan A, and it needed to be removed for plan B instead. The latter plan was to make the elevator door look like it closed two minutes after 22:09. The 25:00 was supposed to replace 21:00 so that the police would be fooled into thinking that 25:00 was 24:00. So he snipped out some seconds from his splice, and retained 25:00, 25:01, 25:02, 25:03, 25:04, 25:07, 25:10, 25:11, and 25:14 (to 25:59). Count them: nine seconds. It makes it look like the elevator door closed at roughly 24:09...under the condition that the police don't bother to check / decipher the pixels. Otherwise he's going to jail.

Why would the guilty staffer slow the video? The way it is now, the elevator door starts to close about 2:48 minutes of real time after Elisa presses the door-hold button. That does not jibe with the plan B of making the door seem to be closing two minutes after she pressed the button. If a police officer decides to compare the video time with his watch, the's staffer's in trouble. If, on the other hand, the staffer lets the video run in real time, then, correct me if I'm wrong, it looks to the police watch that all is well. It would appear that there were two minutes indeed from the time of pressing the door-hold button to door-close time.

Of course, if the police were ask why the elevator door did not close two minutes after Elisa last pressed the button at 23:12 and 23:15, the staffer could be in trouble. I suppose he had planned to lie, to say that the door-hold feature holds for two minutes maximum regardless of how many times the button is pressed within the two minutes. Or, that could be the truth.
 
When darkened water due to anything in the tank and pipes occurrs, it's expected to fill the entire pipes. In my understanding, and I have quite a bit of college-level chemistry reading, a gas tends to spread out in it's environment. For example, oxygen in water does not settle to the bottom of a body of water, even though oxygen atoms (atomic weight 16) are heavier than water molecules (atomic weight 9). So I'm surprised at your statement: "It can result in black water upon first turning on the faucet." That statement implies a settling of the gas, or the chemical products of the gas.

My point was: if the tank water was darkened by gases of Elisa's decomposition, then these gases should fill the pipes too along with the tank. I don't see that the gases should be expected to settle to the bottom of a tank or a run of pipe. But then perhaps the movie people who named Dark Water knew better.

In a vertical run of pipe, the "bottom" is at a tap. But if the Baugh couple was staying eight days at the room, then I cannot fathom, on a daily basis or less, sufficient settling of this gaseous material at spots adjacent to the taps. That's why I don't believe their story.

I do not have any chemistry expertise. I was simply making a "common sense" conjecture as to why the water ran black. The British woman qualified the water as running black for only a few seconds then as normal. This is consistent with how tap water, in the absence of human putrefaction, also at times runs black from high Sulfur content. I am not saying EL's decomposing body turned the water black all on its own but rather the release of extra Hydrogen Sulfide in a confined space with a compromised cycling (low water pressure) or flow may have altered chemical balances enough to result in black water. From what I have read sulfide is fairly common in our drinking water, and as a gas it is highly soluble in water. IMHO, this seems a valid explanation for the dark water incidence at the Cecil.

I just now read that sulfide corrodes copper piping resulting in black water.

sources:

Corpse found in LA's Water Tank


Correcting or Reducing Corrosion in Home and Commercial Piping Systems


Hydrogen Sulfide in Drinking Water.
 
I do not have any chemistry expertise. I was simply making a "common sense" conjecture as to why the water ran black. The British woman qualified the water as running black for only a few seconds then as normal. This is consistent with how tap water, in the absence of human putrefaction, also at times runs black from high Sulfur content. I am not saying EL's decomposing body turned the water black all on its own but rather the release of extra Hydrogen Sulfide in a confined space with a compromised cycling (low water pressure) or flow may have altered chemical balances enough to result in black water. From what I have read sulfide is fairly common in our drinking water, and as a gas it is highly soluble in water. IMHO, this seems a valid explanation for the dark water incidence at the Cecil.

I just now read that sulfide corrodes copper piping resulting in black water.

sources:

Corpse found in LA's Water Tank


Correcting or Reducing Corrosion in Home and Commercial Piping Systems


Hydrogen Sulfide in Drinking Water.

Good stuff Conductor. Googling "Sulfide corrosion of copper" along with "black" gets quite a few webpage results. Here's just one statement: "Sulfide corrosion of copper and iron lines can cause a blackish color in the water." We definitely have a discussion here.

But its also good that you share a quote from the Baugh couple saying that their black water was from the shower, meaning that we can assume daily usage of that tap, begging the question of how black water could settle daily. That's the mystery here. I wouldn't expect black water to form daily due to pipe corrosion. The water would need to sit idle for a lot longer span.

Black water due to sulfide corrosion (= heavy / solid material expected to settle under the force of gravity) helps to explain why dark material could settle at the taps rather than spread like a gas throughout the water. Another point: it's doubtful that LA city water would be provided in a form condusive to heavy corrrosion, but then the hotel may have been on well water. Usually, pipe corrosion is an issue with untreated well water.

Usually, to be expected anyway, a city will try to minimize corrosion for its residents...unless the mayor has stock / shares in pipe companies (joking of course). If the hotel got extreme sulfide corrosion, then the rest of the city block and beyond should have too, and that's unlikely.

I don't think I'm going to go with the idea that human decomposition can explain the Baugh complaint. I'll look into it and report back if there's any possibility.
 
Just an observation about black, sulfurous matter in water -- my expertise only extends so far as leaving my husband at home alone for a week and coming back to a sink full of dirty dish water, but in that instance I can say that the water had a smell and upon churning the water and reaching for the stopper to unplug the drain, I disturbed the black, sulfurous matter in question, which had settled on the sink plug.
 
I've been seeking the mechanism for producing sulfide corrosion of copper or iron lines that produce blackened water. A metal attacked and reduced by a sulfuric compound is called a sulfide. The sulfide is heavier than water, not very soluble, and therefore settles to the bottom. Wikipedia: "Hydrogen sulfide reacts with metal ions to form metal sulfides..." The trick is to understand how hydrogen sulfide (a gas) or its in-water product, sulfuric acid, got into the hotel pipes. Can we claim that Elisa's decomposition formed the gas / acid? I don't think so because "Hydrogen sulfide often results from the bacterial breakdown of organic matter in the absence of oxygen, such as in swamps and sewers..."

Wikipedia's article on "Biogenic Sulfide Corrosion" says that anaerobic (= without oxygen) conditions as well as free oxygen gas (i.e. air) are required, and for that reason says that such corrosion is a result specifically in SEWERS (i.e. pipes with an air atmosphere above the flowing water), not pipes filled with water. So, while this corrosion has rotting sewage / organisms as the root cause, I don't think it applies to hotel Cecil, except, perhaps, in the air above the tanks (I don't known whether the tops of the Cecil tanks have vents to allow gases to escape). The biogenic sulfide corrosion, moreover, needs a lack of suspended oxygen (i.e. the anaerobic condition) in the water content of the rotting material, and yet Elisa was in a water tank with plenty of suspended oxygen in the water. Here's the quote:

"Biogenic sulfide corrosion is a bacterially mediated process of forming hydrogen sulfide gas and the subsequent conversion to sulfuric acid that attacks concrete and steel within wastewater environments. The hydrogen sulfide gas is biochemically oxidized in the presence of moisture to form sulfuric acid. The effect of sulfuric acid on concrete and steel surfaces exposed to severe wastewater environments can be devastating.

Corrosion may occur where stale sewage generates hydrogen sulfide gas into an atmosphere containing oxygen gas and high relative humidity. There must be an underlying anaerobic aquatic habitat containing sulfates and an overlying aerobic aquatic habitat [i.e. the air]...

...Dissolved oxygen is depleted as bacteria begin to catabolize organic material in sewage. In the absence of dissolved oxygen and nitrates, sulfates are reduced to hydrogen sulfide " (end quote)

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_sulfide_corrosion"]Biogenic sulfide corrosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I don't think the black water at Cecil was the result of Elisa, and I can't imagine the hotel tolerating black water in all of it pipes on an ongoing daily basis due to unconditioned well water. If the Baughs got black water while using the bathroom faucets daily, can you imagine how black the water would be if a room goes unused for a week? The city, which would have heard of it, would not have permitted such a situation, and it would have been certain financial anathema for the hotel owner(s) anyway.

Therefore, the claim of the Baughs sounds suspiciously like a falsehood to me, and there is a motive for telling this falsehood if there is some murderous group in that hotel playing games while linked to the movie people who produced Dark Water. I didn't want to bring that up again, but it needs be where I think the Baughs cannot be telling the truth. I don't want to make it an issue or argumentation.
 
Just an observation about black, sulfurous matter in water -- my expertise only extends so far as leaving my husband at home alone for a week and coming back to a sink full of dirty dish water, but in that instance I can say that the water had a smell and upon churning the water and reaching for the stopper to unplug the drain, I disturbed the black, sulfurous matter in question, which had settled on the sink plug.

Just to clarify, this smell and related sink situation does not necessarily involve a sulfur theme. According to my readings in artciles above, it's not even likely. But I'm definitely no authority on sulfur compounds.
 
Sorry to take this in a bit of a different direction right now, but this pic was taken in a room at the Cecil and was uploaded Feb 21 2013:

http://www.yelp.ca/biz_photos/cecil...qqu3UfO_om-Ikhu_yO15qg#Uz-TNQHXtksi77UyyofKWg

Can anyone tell me what that boxy thing is on the ceiling in the upper right corner, just underneath the bright light?

That's definitely the back of an accent light fixture.

That room is one of the glass-front Stay rooms which is being used for promotional purposes. No different than a store window display to show off clothes or goods. You walk past these windows on the sidewalk just like you would a Macy's window with mannequins.
 
That's definitely the back of an accent light fixture.

That room is one of the glass-front Stay rooms which is being used for promotional purposes. No different than a store window display to show off clothes or goods. You walk past these windows on the sidewalk just like you would a Macy's window with mannequins.

The Stay is 636 S. Main ... 632 was a Dave's Book Store (apparently now closed), but listed here as *advertiser censored* Book Store:

http://www.yellowise.com/results/los-angeles-ca/department-stores/941/10

The details in the pic don't match up with any storefronts that I can find on Streetview.

I know LA has lots of *advertiser censored* book stores, but just wondering if perhaps there is some relationship to "the last book store" Elisa was in.
 
I can't wait for the toxicology results to come out and for the medical examiner to release a final theory on EL's last hours and her cause of death. I feel pretty sure it won't fall anywhere in the realm of some of the fantastical ideas being casually and irresponsibly thrown about on this thread.

This poor girl's memory is being tarnished by some pretty outlandish theories and, frankly, I find the link to the webpage analyzing her body language to be offensive, referring to EL as "putting herself on sexual display." Blame the victim, much?

If this is a snuff film....where's the film?!?!? If this is a snuff film....where's the hotel surveillance video and witnesses confirming the presence of cameras, lighting, people, and props being brought in and out of the hotel and set up? Where's the evidence?!

If I were EL's family, I would be horrified at reading this thread. This is a person's life we are discussing here. EL is a victim one way or another and it is not right to victimize her further by defiling her memory just because the topic of snuff films may be fascinating to some.
 
The Stay is 636 S. Main ... 632 was a Dave's Book Store (apparently now closed), but listed here as *advertiser censored* Book Store:

http://www.yellowise.com/results/los-angeles-ca/department-stores/941/10

The details in the pic don't match up with any storefronts that I can find on Streetview.

I know LA has lots of *advertiser censored* book stores, but just wondering if perhaps there is some relationship to "the last book store" Elisa was in.
Well google doesn't cruise the streets once a year taking pics, more like every 3 years. So the pic you see in street view could easily be a year or more older


Stay is 636, Cecil 640 so it looks like they jump by 2 so it would be the second door north of the stay. not part of the Cecil

Edit: Here you go the store front that says Arty on it is at 634 (on google stree view)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/arty-los-angeles

so its the store front next to Arty to the north
 
snipped

It's of course ridiculous to think that the hotel would give the police a video in this condition with the hope of getting away with the crime. The video has guilty written all over it. But then, what other choice did the staffer have? Give the police the original video with the murder(s) on it?

You touched on some of these points, but it seems to me that if the video is edited/pixelated for nefarious reasons, then a) multiple people (including higher-ups) at the hotel would have to be aware of it due to it's blatant nature (even if they were informed by the police after turning it in), and b) the police would have to be either going along with a cover-up or actively investigating the reasons why it's edited.

The police would notice, period. And they would also recognize that in the modern era, many others would notice if it is released to the public. So if they were involved, then releasing either a much shorter segment or stills from the video would have been the logical thing to do.

Which leads me to believe that the most reasonable explanation is that there are legitimate investigative reasons why it is edited, and we probably won't know what those are until the active investigation is complete (if ever).
I can't wait for the toxicology results to come out and for the medical examiner to release a final theory on EL's last hours and her cause of death. I feel pretty sure it won't fall anywhere in the realm of some of the fantastical ideas being casually and irresponsibly thrown about on this thread.
snipped
I completely agree. This is a person's life, and it often feels like people online (not just on this site) are using it as part of an amateur detective role playing game that gets more and more and more fantastical as time goes on.
 
I completely agree. This is a person's life, and it often feels like people online (not just on this site) are using it as part of an amateur detective role playing game that gets more and more and more fantastical as time goes on.
well said
 
Well google doesn't cruise the streets once a year taking pics, more like every 3 years. So the pic you see in street view could easily be a year or more older


Stay is 636, Cecil 640 so it looks like they jump by 2 so it would be the second door north of the stay. not part of the Cecil

Edit: Here you go the store front that says Arty on it is at 634 (on google stree view)
http://www.yelp.com/biz/arty-los-angeles

so its the store front next to Arty to the north

I just went by and it's the same installation with the bed and the cardboard cutouts, and the item in question is in fact a light.

636 is the Stay entrance
634 is Arty
632 looks like it's a promotional setup for Stay

The shutters were down, as were most of the ones on the other side of the Cecil main entrance.
 
This is a crime sleuthing forum. If there are posts that someone feels are offensive or in violation of TOS, please notify a Mod and let them deal with it.
 
If this is a snuff film....where's the film?!?!? If this is a snuff film....where's the hotel surveillance video and witnesses confirming the presence of cameras, lighting, people, and props being brought in and out of the hotel and set up? Where's the evidence?!

(snipped/bolded)

Just a point of fact, though, that these things aren't part of a "snuff film." Think Paris Hilton's sex tape versus a production crew.

It's a valid theory to discuss, because light needs be shone on ugly crimes, but there's no reason to continue to speculate on it in THIS case.
 
This is a crime sleuthing forum. If there are posts that someone feels are offensive or in violation of TOS, please notify a Mod and let them deal with it.
good advice.

Also if we can leave the elevator video talk in the elevator video forum. That way those of us who don't want to wade through that discussion can avoid it altogether and those that do can find it without having to go through several threads to follow the discussion. The mods worked hard to organize a topic that goes in a bunch of different directions and it just goes back to the chaos that we had before when we cross those lines
 
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