Evidence for "Dead body in the Damn Car"

[okiedokietoo]

I agree with your post cyberborg but what I can't figure out is what KC's ploy was when she called JG to come and help her

 

[BondJamesBond]

I agree with your post cyberborg but what I can't figure out is what KC's ploy was when she called JG to come and help her

IMHO...something like, "Hey, I ran outta gas and had to leave my car @ Amscot. I got a friend to pick me up for work, but, do you think you could swing by and put a few gallons in the car for me? Pleeeeeeeze?" :angel:

Casey made the call to Jesse after she knew Tony was on his way to pick her up.

 

[RR0004]

In my opinion, there are some fair indications that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. There also seems to be some fair indications that perhaps this isn’t so.

The strongest indication seems to be the statements made by many about the smell in that trunk. Many who have talked about the smell have had the opportunity to be around the smell of death. We know for certain the smell was horrendous. We know many who had the opportunity to smell the trunk thought it could be the smell of death. There was very little physical proof of human decomposition found in the trunk, in the evidence we know of.
There was also a white trash bag with several food containers and maggots that had been in the trunk. Some (probably just me LOL) think that the contents in the white trash bag sitting in the trunk, for 2 ½ weeks may have caused the odor everyone talks about. So, it seems that the strongest circumstantial evidence that Caylee’s remains were in that trunk would be the smell in the trunk. I can agree on that.
The cadaver dog that hit on the drivers side rear fender seems to be a second strong indication that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. Cadaver dogs have a very low percentage of false positives, but they do sometimes have a false positive.
The forensic reports, serological, entomology, dna, and air sample confirm the possibility that Caylee’s remains may have been in the trunk. In each of those reports the final conclusion is that there is decomp in the trunk that COULD be of human origin, and also the decomp COULD be from another decompositional event.
The white trash bag that had possibly been contaminated from sitting in a dumpster for 30 hours must be considered. Most of the entomology report stemmed from this bag.
Although Cindy’s 911 call alerted LE to the smell in the trunk, and one officer was in the car even before YM arrived on the scene, LE did not secure the car until around 7pm on the 16th. This could lead some (again probably only me LOL) to believe, that LE did not find the smell in the car important enough to deem it a crime scene and secure it. This is another reason I question the validity of the smell of death in the car. It would seem the proper protocol, to immediately secure a vehicle that had the unmistakable smell of death, when there was a missing child report.

So, if I’m on the jury, and the result of my decision could result in someone’s execution, the question is, am I certain beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in this trunk.
1. The cadaver dog hit, but they occasionally have false positives.
2. A number of people thought the smell of death was in the car, but there was a trash bag in the trunk that may have caused the smell.
3. The forensic reports say its possible, but could be from something else.
4. The police didn’t seem to initially treat the smell of death as high priority.

For me, I think there is a strong possibility that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, but I cannot condemn someone to be executed, while I still have what seem to me to be reasonable doubts. Therefore, I can’t agree beyond a reasonable doubt that Caylee’s remains were in the trunk. As always my entire post is moo

Ok...maybe I'm not remembering this correctly...and I honestly can say that I cannot remember where the heck I read it, but wasn't it reported that the "bugs" would have migrated to the bag from the trunk...searching for a food source...and that they based this on examination of the "bugs"? Sorry if I'm not clear...it's very late here.

 

[RR0004]

Oh I'm very confident the State can do without us lol. Not sure why certain posters think that it was a big deal that Yuri omitted the actual word 'human'.
Yuri didn't have to say 'human' decomposition to make his point. When he stated that he knew the smell because he used to be in homicide, he basically insinuated that he knew the smell of a dead human body. He said human decomposition without actually having/needing to say it.


CA also stated something like, "someone could have put a body in there when it was at the tow yard". Cause you know how often that happens...That's where I stash all my dead bodies.


I don't see the defense getting around the fact that there was a dead body in the damn trunk, and sadly that body was Caylee's.

For the record...I was being facetious. LOL

 

[ZsaZsa]

I agree with your post cyberborg but what I can't figure out is what KC's ploy was when she called JG to come and help her

To get his fingerprints all over her car?

 

[Harmony 2]

I have given this a lot of thought. Please forgive the length of the following post and the fact that I have stated the same facts over and over again in other threads. To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence and I cannot stress it enough.
Consider:

Meanwhile, the techniques for retracing the evolution of a murder are getting ever more refined. Take soil samples. As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth. Thus, soil, like maggots, becomes an ''information bomb,'' and the dead can be reconstructed (if not resurrected) long after they have disappeared physically.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A35751C1A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

The article is referencing dead bodies left on soil. The same notion would apply to a vehicle trunk. In this case we know butyric acid was deposited and scraped from the car trunk.

They were looking for a post mortem interval and it is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-mortem_interval

Post mortem interval (PMI) is the time that has elapsed since a person has died. If the time in question is not known, a number of medical/scientific techniques are used to determine it.
Many types of changes to a body occur after death.

So in other words, they were not looking at vomit or rancid butter/cheese/food because those things, of course, do not die and have post mortem intervals. They also have other components in them like bile and milk by-products that were not found on the trunk liner. It is obvious they were talking about something that had died and laid on the liner in order to deposit the VFA. It is mentioned that the decomposition may be similar to a pig’s. But come on, we know Casey did not carry a dead pig in her trunk. It is glaringly obvious what lay decomposing on that liner for 2.6 days.

Butyric acid permeates many surfaces in its surroundings and can endure even through cleanup for a long time.

The goal of introducing butyric acid into a clinic is to disrupt services, close the clinic, and harass patients and staff. Depending on the amount used and how it is introduced into the clinic, butyric acid can cause thousands of dollars of damage, requiring clinics to replace carpeting, furniture, and conduct extensive cleanup of the facility. In addition, even after cleanup, butyric acid's smell leaves a reminder of the incident for months, and often years, to come.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/butyric_acid.asp

We have Dr. Haskell’s statement about the strong decompositional odor even after 6 months :

The phantom fingerprint left by the VFA is revealing something was dead on that trunk liner and the only one deceased in this case is Caylee

 

[BeanE]

Found something else pertinent to this thread while doing my other research. This is Yuri Melich's narrative about the cadaver dog and Pontiac from his investigative report.

PDF page 20

http://www.wesh.com/download/2008/1126/18155354.pdf

 

[BeanE]

I have given this a lot of thought. Please forgive the length of the following post and the fact that I have stated the same facts over and over again in other threads. To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence and I cannot stress it enough.
Consider:

The article is referencing dead bodies left on soil. The same notion would apply to a vehicle trunk. In this case we know butyric acid was deposited and scraped from the car trunk.

They were looking for a post mortem interval and it is defined as:

So in other words, they were not looking at vomit or rancid butter/cheese/food because those things, of course, do not die and have post mortem intervals. They also have other components in them like bile and milk by-products that were not found on the trunk liner. It is obvious they were talking about something that had died and laid on the liner in order to deposit the VFA. It is mentioned that the decomposition may be similar to a pig’s. But come on, we know Casey did not carry a dead pig in her trunk. It is glaringly obvious what lay decomposing on that liner for 2.6 days.

Butyric acid permeates many surfaces in its surroundings and can endure even through cleanup for a long time.

We have Dr. Haskell’s statement about the strong decompositional odor even after 6 months :

The phantom fingerprint left by the VFA is revealing something was dead on that trunk liner and the only one deceased in this case is Caylee

I am in awe, Harmony. Excellent research.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

I have given this a lot of thought. Please forgive the length of the following post and the fact that I have stated the same facts over and over again in other threads. To me, it is the most damning piece of evidence and I cannot stress it enough.
Consider:


The article is referencing dead bodies left on soil. The same notion would apply to a vehicle trunk. In this case we know butyric acid was deposited and scraped from the car trunk.

They were looking for a post mortem interval and it is defined as:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-mortem_interval



So in other words, they were not looking at vomit or rancid butter/cheese/food because those things, of course, do not die and have post mortem intervals. They also have other components in them like bile and milk by-products that were not found on the trunk liner. It is obvious they were talking about something that had died and laid on the liner in order to deposit the VFA. It is mentioned that the decomposition may be similar to a pig’s. But come on, we know Casey did not carry a dead pig in her trunk. It is glaringly obvious what lay decomposing on that liner for 2.6 days.

Butyric acid permeates many surfaces in its surroundings and can endure even through cleanup for a long time.



We have Dr. Haskell’s statement about the strong decompositional odor even after 6 months :

The phantom fingerprint left by the VFA is revealing something was dead on that trunk liner and the only one deceased in this case is Caylee

Excellent post, very compelling, well thought out and backed up with documentation. This post, although it does not change my opinion enough, to join the majority, it has me leaning that direction. Thank you Harmony.
The results of the poll in this thread show 96 .11% are convinced that there was a dead body in the car. I am part of the 3.33% that is somewhat certain this is true. The first sentence in the first post of this thread is “ok. I think it’s about time that we can at least agree that there was a dead body in the Pontiac.” Based on the poll we have thus far, I think we can at least agree that the overwhelming majority is convinced there was a dead body in the car.
I would like to thank all the posters in this thread who have added links and their opinions based on those links. This has been an informative thread.

The one thing that the court of public opinion does not have, and is not considered in the formulation of opinions, is the defensive counterpoints to the evidence we know of. We do not know what the investigators for the defense has found. We do not know what the experts for the defense will say. We do not know,what evidence we know of, will hold up under cross examination. We do not know what KC has told JB. (for example it is possible that KC is guilty, but knows for a fact that she never had Caylee’s remains in the trunk. She used a different method to get Caylee to the remains site. Now, if this happens to be true, there should be no way possible for the state to prove Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, if they had never been in the trunk. The defense will prove Caylee’s remains were not there, and this will be a huge blow to the overall circumstantial case the state is making). So, because I think we only have one sides evaluation of the evidence, and that has not been cross examined, and the defense may bring some evidence of their own to the trial that we do not yet know of, I will have to maintain the opinion that reasonable doubt is still a possibility.

In conclusion, I totally agree with the overwhelming majority that there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence in this case, that not only points to the almost certain probability that there was a dead body in the trunk, but it is also highly probable that KC is guilty of the charge of premeditated murder. We do know the defense will have to try to bring reasonable doubt to this mountain. Until trial we will know very little of how the defense will attempt to cast reasonable doubt. In the meantime, in an effort to attempt to see both sides of the coin, I will continue to read and evaluate the docs etc, and challenge anything I find questionable from a defensive standpoint, and thanks again to those who post links that can put to rest the items I find questionable. The majority is doing a fantastic job in evaluating the evidence from the prosecutions standpoint.

As always, this entire post is my opinion only

 

[ZsaZsa]

Excellent post, very compelling, well thought out and backed up with documentation. This post, although it does not change my opinion enough, to join the majority, it has me leaning that direction. Thank you Harmony.
The results of the poll in this thread show 96 .11% are convinced that there was a dead body in the car. I am part of the 3.33% that is somewhat certain this is true. The first sentence in the first post of this thread is “ok. I think it’s about time that we can at least agree that there was a dead body in the Pontiac.” Based on the poll we have thus far, I think we can at least agree that the overwhelming majority is convinced there was a dead body in the car.
I would like to thank all the posters in this thread who have added links and their opinions based on those links. This has been an informative thread.

The one thing that the court of public opinion does not have, and is not considered in the formulation of opinions, is the defensive counterpoints to the evidence we know of. We do not know what the investigators for the defense has found. We do not know what the experts for the defense will say. We do not know,what evidence we know of, will hold up under cross examination. We do not know what KC has told JB. (for example it is possible that KC is guilty, but knows for a fact that she never had Caylee’s remains in the trunk. She used a different method to get Caylee to the remains site. Now, if this happens to be true, there should be no way possible for the state to prove Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, if they had never been in the trunk. The defense will prove Caylee’s remains were not there, and this will be a huge blow to the overall circumstantial case the state is making). So, because I think we only have one sides evaluation of the evidence, and that has not been cross examined, and the defense may bring some evidence of their own to the trial that we do not yet know of, I will have to maintain the opinion that reasonable doubt is still a possibility.

In conclusion, I totally agree with the overwhelming majority that there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence in this case, that not only points to the almost certain probability that there was a dead body in the trunk, but it is also highly probable that KC is guilty of the charge of premeditated murder. We do know the defense will have to try to bring reasonable doubt to this mountain. Until trial we will know very little of how the defense will attempt to cast reasonable doubt. In the meantime, in an effort to attempt to see both sides of the coin, I will continue to read and evaluate the docs etc, and challenge anything I find questionable from a defensive standpoint, and thanks again to those who post links that can put to rest the items I find questionable. The majority is doing a fantastic job in evaluating the evidence from the prosecutions standpoint.

As always, this entire post is my opinion only

At this point we all know how unreliable anything Casey has to say is, so whether she says she transmorphed Caylee by UFO to the remains site wouldn't matter-it doesn't change the fact that a decomposing body was in her trunk, and a decomposing Caylee was found close to her home, and she died in the time that she was in her sole care.

 

[LambChop]

At this point we all know how unreliable anything Casey has to say is, so whether she says she transmorphed Caylee by UFO to the remains site wouldn't matter-it doesn't change the fact that a decomposing body was in her trunk, and a decomposing Caylee was found close to her home, and she died in the time that she was in her sole care.

Then there is the fact that KC has never told the whole truth about her daughter. She has no credibility and anything she or her defense attorney may say now can not be taken seriously when matched up with the physical evidence. I do not think SA will let the jury loose sight of the fact that when faced with telling the truth about the whereabouts of her child KC lied and through her attorney continues those lies today. KC has ruined the lives of many people, at this point too many to count I would imagine. KC has no credibility plain and simple.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

At this point we all know how unreliable anything Casey has to say is, so whether she says she transmorphed Caylee by UFO to the remains site wouldn't matter-it doesn't change the fact that a decomposing body was in her trunk, and a decomposing Caylee was found close to her home, and she died in the time that she was in her sole care.

I understand and respect you opinion. I agree that for the most part anything we have heard KC say has been unreliable.
I think that KC‘s lawyers have informed her that it would not be in her best interest to lie to them, since lying to them would seriously hinder building a case in her defense. If she has chosen to lie to her lawyers, it will harm her slim chances in court. Because it would be in her best interest to be truthful to her lawyers, I think she will be truthful to her lawyers. I think because of this, it is one of the few advantages the defense has to work with in developing a defense for trial.
For the sake of clarity, I am somewhat certain there was a “dead body in the car”, the example I gave that, IF KC knows she did not have Caylee’s remains in the trunk is an example of knowledge KC may have that could help the defense defend her in court. To further my opinion that KC may have knowledge that we don’t have in an inoffensive way is, although these examples may not help her in court. KC may know the following that the prosecution does not know, KC may know, exactly how, where, when, and why Caylee’s life was ended. Because I feel she may know these things, I feel she may know things that could help her defense. As always, moo

 

[LambChop]

I can't see KC being truthful to anyone, anyone. Think about how many people have been "Under the Bus" since last July. She has not told anyone the truth and will continue to spin, spin, spin as she has nothing better to do but to sit in her cell and make up stories. Her defense team knows the truth. They are just trying to save her life. The trunk evidence is vital and she knows it.

 

[thedeviledadvocate]

Agreed. A good reason why, after HL's preliminary inspection of the trunk that he never returned to complete his work and disappeared off into the sunset. The Defense decided to walk away from this debate. Score 1-0 to SA.

Although it has not been updated for months, as far as I know HL is still on the defense witness list.

Is it possible, that since the state has released so many forensic reports in regards to the trunk, that HL could decide based on facts these reports revealed, that it would not be beneficial to the defense, from an evidentiary standpoint to further examine the undercarriage of the Pontiac?

 

[LambChop]

Although it has not been updated for months, as far as I know HL is still on the defense witness list.

Is it possible, that since the state has released so many forensic reports in regards to the trunk, that HL could decide based on facts these reports revealed, that it would not be beneficial to the defense, from an evidentiary standpoint to further examine the undercarriage of the Pontiac?

I don't have a link but I know that HL's testimony comes with a high price tag and I don't believe he would do it for free. My guess is that is why he did not return.

 

[cecybeans]

I don't have a link but I know that HL's testimony comes with a high price tag and I don't believe he would do it for free. My guess is that is why he did not return.

I remember earlier in the year that JB was trying to coordinate a time for HL to revisit and wanted everything set up so that HL could do it while being in town for another event (it was either autopsy or crime scene location I think). He might charge less if his transportation is being picked up by someone else. JB was very unhappy he could not coordinate it with HL's schedule, IIRC.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I understand and respect you opinion. I agree that for the most part anything we have heard KC say has been unreliable.
I think that KC‘s lawyers have informed her that it would not be in her best interest to lie to them, since lying to them would seriously hinder building a case in her defense. If she has chosen to lie to her lawyers, it will harm her slim chances in court. Because it would be in her best interest to be truthful to her lawyers, I think she will be truthful to her lawyers. I think because of this, it is one of the few advantages the defense has to work with in developing a defense for trial.
For the sake of clarity, I am somewhat certain there was a “dead body in the car”, the example I gave that, IF KC knows she did not have Caylee’s remains in the trunk is an example of knowledge KC may have that could help the defense defend her in court. To further my opinion that KC may have knowledge that we don’t have in an inoffensive way is, although these examples may not help her in court. KC may know the following that the prosecution does not know, KC may know, exactly how, where, when, and why Caylee’s life was ended. Because I feel she may know these things, I feel she may know things that could help her defense. As always, moo

But, there is no way Casey could "know" that she did not have Caylee's remains in the car- someone's remains were there- can you think of anyone else whose body it might have been?
Of course she knows how where and when Caylee died, she murdered her.
If there was anything she could say in her defense she would have already said it, not wait until some future court date.
You can propose all manner of totally unrealistic scenarios. Doesn't mean anyone will ever believe them. It is completely obvious that this woman killed her child and I really don't understand the compulsion some people feel to search for any other possible explanation that defies logic and the common sense we were born with. Then of course, there are the trolls who simply post to be provocative.

 

[RR0004]

Excellent post, very compelling, well thought out and backed up with documentation. This post, although it does not change my opinion enough, to join the majority, it has me leaning that direction. Thank you Harmony.
The results of the poll in this thread show 96 .11% are convinced that there was a dead body in the car. I am part of the 3.33% that is somewhat certain this is true. The first sentence in the first post of this thread is “ok. I think it’s about time that we can at least agree that there was a dead body in the Pontiac.” Based on the poll we have thus far, I think we can at least agree that the overwhelming majority is convinced there was a dead body in the car.
I would like to thank all the posters in this thread who have added links and their opinions based on those links. This has been an informative thread.

The one thing that the court of public opinion does not have, and is not considered in the formulation of opinions, is the defensive counterpoints to the evidence we know of. We do not know what the investigators for the defense has found. We do not know what the experts for the defense will say. We do not know,what evidence we know of, will hold up under cross examination. We do not know what KC has told JB. (for example it is possible that KC is guilty, but knows for a fact that she never had Caylee’s remains in the trunk. She used a different method to get Caylee to the remains site. Now, if this happens to be true, there should be no way possible for the state to prove Caylee’s remains were in the trunk, if they had never been in the trunk. The defense will prove Caylee’s remains were not there, and this will be a huge blow to the overall circumstantial case the state is making). So, because I think we only have one sides evaluation of the evidence, and that has not been cross examined, and the defense may bring some evidence of their own to the trial that we do not yet know of, I will have to maintain the opinion that reasonable doubt is still a possibility.

In conclusion, I totally agree with the overwhelming majority that there is a mountain of circumstantial evidence in this case, that not only points to the almost certain probability that there was a dead body in the trunk, but it is also highly probable that KC is guilty of the charge of premeditated murder. We do know the defense will have to try to bring reasonable doubt to this mountain. Until trial we will know very little of how the defense will attempt to cast reasonable doubt. In the meantime, in an effort to attempt to see both sides of the coin, I will continue to read and evaluate the docs etc, and challenge anything I find questionable from a defensive standpoint, and thanks again to those who post links that can put to rest the items I find questionable. The majority is doing a fantastic job in evaluating the evidence from the prosecutions standpoint.

As always, this entire post is my opinion only

Just curious...would these (defense) reports be subject to discovery? What has the defense turned over "officially" (the bogus video with Kronk's exes doesn't count)? Anybody know? TIA

 

[RR0004]

I understand and respect you opinion. I agree that for the most part anything we have heard KC say has been unreliable.
I think that KC‘s lawyers have informed her that it would not be in her best interest to lie to them, since lying to them would seriously hinder building a case in her defense. If she has chosen to lie to her lawyers, it will harm her slim chances in court. Because it would be in her best interest to be truthful to her lawyers, I think she will be truthful to her lawyers. I think because of this, it is one of the few advantages the defense has to work with in developing a defense for trial.
For the sake of clarity, I am somewhat certain there was a “dead body in the car”, the example I gave that, IF KC knows she did not have Caylee’s remains in the trunk is an example of knowledge KC may have that could help the defense defend her in court. To further my opinion that KC may have knowledge that we don’t have in an inoffensive way is, although these examples may not help her in court. KC may know the following that the prosecution does not know, KC may know, exactly how, where, when, and why Caylee’s life was ended. Because I feel she may know these things, I feel she may know things that could help her defense. As always, moo

Do you have an idea how the defense can pursue "what she knows' without putting her on the stand? As far as Casey being truthful with her attorneys, do you think she told them that she killed Caylee? Because from what I know about defense attorneys, they'd rather not know that their client is guilty...at least they (JMHO) would prefer not being told. Seriously, the way I see the defense going is to create doubt...whether it's reasonable or not remains to be seen.

 

[BeanE]

The majority is doing a fantastic job in evaluating the evidence from the prosecutions standpoint.

Or maybe just trying to find out what happened to Caylee?