Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[kaRN]

Good Points. :clap:
No one "accidently" duct tapes a child's mouth/face

Specially when the tape covers the hair. Girls hair at that.

 

[kaRN]

Could this have been caused by putting the duct tape across the mouth and the nose?

No it refers to deprived O2 conditions in the trunk is my understanding.

 

[aafromaa]

Glad to see this thread got bumped up for discussion again. Whenever a thread gets bumped up that interests me I go back and read from the beginning when I can and I did that here. I have to admit that from time to time I still wonder if there is any way that this could have been an accident and a horrible cover-up and KC just got deeper and deeper into her lies and couldn't figure a way out or an ending point for her lies and that maybe she even convinced herself that she didn't do anything to Caylee. My possible scenarios went something like this...

KC put Caylee to sleep with chloroform as she often had before and put duct tape on her mouth to keep her quiet just in case she came to before KC returned. Since she had done this before she wasn't thinking about the possibility that Caylee could die from this. She drove to TL's apt and left Caylee in the trunk asleep and she and TL go to Blockbuster to rent videos. She intended to return to Caylee before she awoke but ended up staying all night with TL and then TL decided to skip school and stay home with KC so by the time she got back to the car (around 11am the next morning) Caylee was dead. KC then returns to the A's home and backs her vehicle in the garage where she takes Caylee out of the trunk and puts the heart sticker on the duct tape and wraps her in the Winnie the Pooh blanket - her way of saying good-bye to her daughter.

I could go on with the scenario but you get the idea. I knew that in that "accidental" scenario that KC would be guilty of manslaughter at the least and possibly even murder 1 because of the chloroform, Caylee's age, and putting her in the trunk and wondered if she knew that as well and that's why she went with the nanny story and refused to say it was an accident...

The bottom line is that I wanted to believe it was an accident whether with the pool or chloroform or whatever. I just didn't want to believe that anyone could kill their own child on purpose, ride around with her in the trunk for days, and then discard her along the side of the road like trash. And I even tried to think that she had to be wasted on drugs and didn't know that she had killed Caylee or disposed of her body. (I have a brother who can lose days when he's popping certain pills. He doesn't remember where he's been, who he's spoken to, what he's done, or anything. A few months ago, he even lost his truck and still has no idea whether he got it stuck and walked away from it or it broke down and he walked away or someone stole it and kicked him out of it. He just "came to" walking down the road 2 days and 80 miles from the last thing he remembers. He is also a violent man and I do believe he could hurt someone or perhaps even kill someone and not even know that he had done it.)

But here's the thing, when he's in these drug induced stupors, he is the only one who doesn't know there is something wrong with him. Even those who don't know him can tell that he is taking something. No one who sees him - friend, foe, or stranger - would say that he was acting "normal" during that time like friends of KC did in the days and weeks following Caylee's death. He might not know what he did during those "blank times" and denies anything anyone says he did - but he doesn't make up stories about it either as KC did with "the nanny kidnapped her" - he just calls you a liar and no one can convince him that he really is the one who shot his own vehicle because it wouldn't start or beat up his girlfriend or spent all paycheck. If KC had been unaware of what she had done she wouldn't have told all those lies to cover it up and as someone earlier in the thread said if it was an accident she would have felt so bad about what she had done that she couldn't function let alone go out and party and tell everyone that Caylee was with the nanny that she has known for years and trusts. And then there's the awful way she cast her away at the side of the road like trash. How could you do that to your child? I simply cannot imagine it. My mother had a little dog that got out of the fence and killed in the highway. She called me at work to tell me her dog had been killed and asked me to come and bury him because she couldn't. I rushed home from work and it was all I could do to wrap him up and dig a hole and bury him. There was the "gross" factor too but I just couldn't hardly get through it because I was weeping so - not just a few tears but weeping at the loss of this little doggie to the point it was all I could do to dig the hole. It was a dog - yes, I loved him - but it was a dog and I could hardly function - even now it brings tears to my eyes to remember that day. How could a mother bag her daughter's body and toss it out on the side of the road and go on with her life as if nothing was wrong? I cannot understand this and yet I have no doubt - reasonable nor unreasonable - that this is exactly what she did.

So for me, it wasn't any one thing that said this was not an accident but it was all the things that I mentioned above and lots more - including the 31 days and the year since then. I admit that I would like to know cause of death if I was on the jury but the fact that the body wasn't discovered in time to determine cause of death would not give me reasonable doubt as to it being an accident with all things taken into consideration - and I say this from one who for months and months WANTED to believe it was a horrible accident. I think a part of me still WANTS to believe that but wanting to believe it simply doesn't make it so. I am looking forward to the presentation of the state's case and the testimony of the experts who will explain many of the reports we have already seen (and many of which I do not yet understand) but for me, there is just no way that this was an accident.

Sorry this became such a long post - I didn't plan it that way... :bang:

 

[MissJames]

Glad to see this thread got bumped up for discussion again. Whenever a thread gets bumped up that interests me I go back and read from the beginning when I can and I did that here. I have to admit that from time to time I still wonder if there is any way that this could have been an accident and a horrible cover-up and KC just got deeper and deeper into her lies and couldn't figure a way out or an ending point for her lies and that maybe she even convinced herself that she didn't do anything to Caylee. My possible scenarios went something like this...

KC put Caylee to sleep with chloroform as she often had before and put duct tape on her mouth to keep her quiet just in case she came to before KC returned. Since she had done this before she wasn't thinking about the possibility that Caylee could die from this. She drove to TL's apt and left Caylee in the trunk asleep and she and TL go to Blockbuster to rent videos. She intended to return to Caylee before she awoke but ended up staying all night with TL and then TL decided to skip school and stay home with KC so by the time she got back to the car (around 11am the next morning) Caylee was dead. KC then returns to the A's home and backs her vehicle in the garage where she takes Caylee out of the trunk and puts the heart sticker on the duct tape and wraps her in the Winnie the Pooh blanket - her way of saying good-bye to her daughter.

I could go on with the scenario but you get the idea. I knew that in that "accidental" scenario that KC would be guilty of manslaughter at the least and possibly even murder 1 because of the chloroform, Caylee's age, and putting her in the trunk and wondered if she knew that as well and that's why she went with the nanny story and refused to say it was an accident...

The bottom line is that I wanted to believe it was an accident whether with the pool or chloroform or whatever. I just didn't want to believe that anyone could kill their own child on purpose, ride around with her in the trunk for days, and then discard her along the side of the road like trash. And I even tried to think that she had to be wasted on drugs and didn't know that she had killed Caylee or disposed of her body. (I have a brother who can lose days when he's popping certain pills. He doesn't remember where he's been, who he's spoken to, what he's done, or anything. A few months ago, he even lost his truck and still has no idea whether he got it stuck and walked away from it or it broke down and he walked away or someone stole it and kicked him out of it. He just "came to" walking down the road 2 days and 80 miles from the last thing he remembers. He is also a violent man and I do believe he could hurt someone or perhaps even kill someone and not even know that he had done it.)

But here's the thing, when he's in these drug induced stupors, he is the only one who doesn't know there is something wrong with him. Even those who don't know him can tell that he is taking something. No one who sees him - friend, foe, or stranger - would say that he was acting "normal" during that time like friends of KC did in the days and weeks following Caylee's death. He might not know what he did during those "blank times" and denies anything anyone says he did - but he doesn't make up stories about it either as KC did with "the nanny kidnapped her" - he just calls you a liar and no one can convince him that he really is the one who shot his own vehicle because it wouldn't start or beat up his girlfriend or spent all paycheck. If KC had been unaware of what she had done she wouldn't have told all those lies to cover it up and as someone earlier in the thread said if it was an accident she would have felt so bad about what she had done that she couldn't function let alone go out and party and tell everyone that Caylee was with the nanny that she has known for years and trusts. And then there's the awful way she cast her away at the side of the road like trash. How could you do that to your child? I simply cannot imagine it. My mother had a little dog that got out of the fence and killed in the highway. She called me at work to tell me her dog had been killed and asked me to come and bury him because she couldn't. I rushed home from work and it was all I could do to wrap him up and dig a hole and bury him. There was the "gross" factor too but I just couldn't hardly get through it because I was weeping so - not just a few tears but weeping at the loss of this little doggie to the point it was all I could do to dig the hole. It was a dog - yes, I loved him - but it was a dog and I could hardly function - even now it brings tears to my eyes to remember that day. How could a mother bag her daughter's body and toss it out on the side of the road and go on with her life as if nothing was wrong? I cannot understand this and yet I have no doubt - reasonable nor unreasonable - that this is exactly what she did.

So for me, it wasn't any one thing that said this was not an accident but it was all the things that I mentioned above and lots more - including the 31 days and the year since then. I admit that I would like to know cause of death if I was on the jury but the fact that the body wasn't discovered in time to determine cause of death would not give me reasonable doubt as to it being an accident with all things taken into consideration - and I say this from one who for months and months WANTED to believe it was a horrible accident. I think a part of me still WANTS to believe that but wanting to believe it simply doesn't make it so. I am looking forward to the presentation of the state's case and the testimony of the experts who will explain many of the reports we have already seen (and many of which I do not yet understand) but for me, there is just no way that this was an accident.

Sorry this became such a long post - I didn't plan it that way... :bang:

Amazing post! Thank you for sharing and putting it all into perspective.:blowkiss:

 

[Brini]

Could this have been caused by putting the duct tape across the mouth and the nose?

Anaerobic decomp is the decomp that occurs inside the body, when someone dies. They body starts decomposing from the inside out. So.. no.

 

[akashana]

Aafromaa - I completely empathize with you having to bury the dog. When one of my chihuahuas got run over by kids in a go-cart a few months ago, I was an inconsolable basket case. I can't conceive of burying a child. And KC didn't even bury her, just discarded her in a leaking trash bag.

But anyone who lives in Florida knows that locking somebody in a car trunk in summer for more than a very few minutes is signing their death warrant. The heat and humidity are so intense that scenario is incompatible with life, and residents are aware of that. So if she did that for whatever reason, she knew the result would be Caylee dying. There is no other possible outcome.

 

[Themis]

I just posted the jury instructions for premeditated murder, 2nd degree murder, justifiable homicide and excusable homicide on the Jury Instructions and Reasonable Doubt thread beginning at about post 777. It might help focus the discussion regarding "ACCIDENTAL" death vs any kind of culpable homicide.

 

[Themis]

The first Jury Instructions and Reasonable Doubt thread has been closed and a second one started. I moved the jury instructions regarding justifiable homicide, excusable homicide, and other instructions along with Lin's research over to the second thread.

 

[justsaying]

I so agree. And I can't overlook the fact that KC SEEMED to be speaking in "code" to Lee. She DID admit her computer password as being "Timer 55" and when asked if her PW was a clue she said YES! And low and behold, Caylee was found 55 seconds (drive Time) away from the A home. Yeah, I know, I know...Timer 55 would also seem to relate to the day she set this PW with the departure date of the PR vacay she did not attend. So what. It doesn't NEGATE the FACT that it also relates to Caylee's "dump site". JMHO.

Regarding her speaking in code, I thought this for a while, then I decided that I, too, was maybe giving her credit for more intelligence than might be warranted. I now think that she just pounced on anything they said to her and agreed heartily (however, potentially, or at this time, or absolutely, or mutually, or ad in finitum) with whatever they said. Like, timer55 is a clue, "yeah, that's it, it's a clue. I'm really trying to help, nobody understands what I'm trying to tell them."

 

[marspiter]

For me the accident theory just doesn't hold water. That and given the jury instructions for Florida I just don't see anyway this could be a justifiable or excusable homicide.

Everyone here knows the evidence, no sense in rehashing that. I think the evidence at hand is pretty clear it wasn't an accident.

Other things that in my mind rule out an accident are the fact that Caylee was not found with swimming clothes. Kinda rules out the pool in my mind. That and the level Casey was willing to go to cover it up. It's one thing to take police to Universal and say you work there. Its another thing entirely to take them down a hallway to your office. The fact that the jig was clearly up and she continued and even now continues to lie says all I need to know and more then proves to me this was no accident. It's Casey actions in this case that prove it wasn't an accident.

 

[chckmate22]

As far as the accident theory I do not for one second believe it. If it was any type of accident KC actions would have been that of a grieving mother. There is no possible way to explain her behavior. She had baggage and she dumped it like garbage. that is my opinoin only. I have heard every excuse in the book for someone doing something wrong but to KC she did nothing wrong. Her tears are that of being caught no more no less. We all have cried over loss family friends and pets. I can tell you only from my own experience that I had a still born baby and still to this day I blame myself. I did what they told me to do but it was too late. I know medically she had a heart defect but that doesnt take away from the blame. When my daughter died I cried for no less than 6 weeks I never left the house wouldnt answer the phone ..you get the idea. KC facial expressions alone are not that of a grieving mother but of someone with no remorse. What makes it even harder I would have given my life for my baby I would have sold my soul to the devil but it didnt help. I can never understand how god gives babies to people who abuse ignore and kill them and took mine away. ...You need a licsense to own a dog, go fishing, drive but any a$$hole can have a baby...where is the sense in that??? IMO

 

[MarleneM]

For me the accident theory just doesn't hold water. That and given the jury instructions for Florida I just don't see anyway this could be a justifiable or excusable homicide.

Everyone here knows the evidence, no sense in rehashing that. I think the evidence at hand is pretty clear it wasn't an accident.

Other things that in my mind rule out an accident are the fact that Caylee was not found with swimming clothes. Kinda rules out the pool in my mind. That and the level Casey was willing to go to cover it up. It's one thing to take police to Universal and say you work there. Its another thing entirely to take them down a hallway to your office. The fact that the jig was clearly up and she continued and even now continues to lie says all I need to know and more then proves to me this was no accident. It's Casey actions in this case that prove it wasn't an accident.

Yes, actions from the very onset.

911 Operator (15JUN08): "And why, why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago?"

 

[MissJames]

As far as the accident theory I do not for one second believe it. If it was any type of accident KC actions would have been that of a grieving mother. There is no possible way to explain her behavior. She had baggage and she dumped it like garbage. that is my opinoin only. I have heard every excuse in the book for someone doing something wrong but to KC she did nothing wrong. Her tears are that of being caught no more no less. We all have cried over loss family friends and pets. I can tell you only from my own experience that I had a still born baby and still to this day I blame myself. I did what they told me to do but it was too late. I know medically she had a heart defect but that doesnt take away from the blame. When my daughter died I cried for no less than 6 weeks I never left the house wouldnt answer the phone ..you get the idea. KC facial expressions alone are not that of a grieving mother but of someone with no remorse. What makes it even harder I would have given my life for my baby I would have sold my soul to the devil but it didnt help. I can never understand how god gives babies to people who abuse ignore and kill them and took mine away. ...You need a licsense to own a dog, go fishing, drive but any a$$hole can have a baby...where is the sense in that??? IMO

I am so sorry for your loss.It is excruciating to lose a child.Only more so to watch another mother throw her's away.You are right.KC has not grieved for her child,only for herself.

 

[Brini]

I am so sorry for your loss.It is excruciating to lose a child.Only more so to watch another mother throw her's away.You are right.KC has not grieved for her child,only for herself.

If KC had come on this w/s.. JUST this w/s, or any other populated by decent people, and asked who would be willing to adopt Caylee... the line would run for miles.

That's just ONE example.

 

[Themis]

For me the accident theory just doesn't hold water. That and given the jury instructions for Florida I just don't see anyway this could be a justifiable or excusable homicide.

Everyone here knows the evidence, no sense in rehashing that. I think the evidence at hand is pretty clear it wasn't an accident.

Other things that in my mind rule out an accident are the fact that Caylee was not found with swimming clothes. Kinda rules out the pool in my mind. That and the level Casey was willing to go to cover it up. It's one thing to take police to Universal and say you work there. Its another thing entirely to take them down a hallway to your office. The fact that the jig was clearly up and she continued and even now continues to lie says all I need to know and more then proves to me this was no accident. It's Casey actions in this case that prove it wasn't an accident.

I agree. This case is clearly not justifiable homicide -- like self defense, defense of another or defending your home. It also is not excusable homicide because the "ordinary standard of care" was not met. Leaving a child with unsupervised access to a pool or in a hot car is way beyond the ordinary standard of care. So, that's out the door too. Not an accident. People usually say it was an accident when they mean the don't think there was premeditation. I suggest people study the legal concept of premeditation. Premeditation can take six months or six seconds. It doesn't take much. Proving premeditation is often based on circumstantial evidence because we can never get inside the mind of another person and know their thoughts for sure. Still, the prosecutors prove it up all the time based on evidence just like what is before us in this case.

 

[AZlawyer]

I agree. This case is clearly not justifiable homicide -- like self defense, defense of another or defending your home. It also is not excusable homicide because the "ordinary standard of care" was not met. Leaving a child with unsupervised access to a pool or in a hot car is way beyond the ordinary standard of care. So, that's out the door too. Not an accident. People usually say it was an accident when they mean the don't think there was premeditation. I suggest people study the legal concept of premeditation. Premeditation can take six months or six seconds. It doesn't take much. Proving premeditation is often based on circumstantial evidence because we can never get inside the mind of another person and know their thoughts for sure. Still, the prosecutors prove it up all the time based on evidence just like what is before us in this case.

Did you post jury instructions in the other thread for aggravated manslaughter of a child? The applicable Florida statutes mentioned in the indictment are 782.07(3) and 827.03(3). This, I think, would cover the "swimming pool accident" theory, although IMHO the duct tape evidence is inconsistent with any reasonable variant of that theory.

 

[Themis]

Did you post jury instructions in the other thread for aggravated manslaughter of a child? The applicable Florida statutes mentioned in the indictment are 782.07(3) and 827.03(3). This, I think, would cover the "swimming pool accident" theory, although IMHO the duct tape evidence is inconsistent with any reasonable variant of that theory.

No. I didn't get to those, AZ. I had limited time. You can post them if you like. It would fill out the set.

 

[JBean]

you guys have so many evidence threads going. Please do not post the same information in more than one thread. the end result is duplicate conversation generated from duplicate posts in different threads.

this topic is evidence that does not support an accident.

IMO, accidental death is only even an issue if KC admits to it. otherwise there is zero possibility that accidental death will be argued by anyone.

 

[magic-cat]

The fact that Casey told the police she was searching for Caylee day one, when she claimed she had vanished with imaginanny, when she was, in fact, at the local Blockbuster hunting for movies with her boyfriend tells me this was no accident. Who goes to the video store for movies when their baby has JUST died in an accident? Casey Anthony would have to be the first one.

The fact that Casey had NEVER been away from home for more than a couple of days at the most and the very day that Caylee vanished she began a month long stay away from home tells me this was no accident. Perhaps her friends did not know her quite as well as her parents and perhaps they, her parents, would have been able to "read" her well enough to determine that the police needed to be called...oh wait, that is exactly what DID happen once she was tracked down. The lies that were working with everyone else did not work with Cindy once she was actually face to face with Casey. Those lies only worked with her casual acquaintances, new found friends and by text message with her mother. Once in person, those lies did not last out the evening before the police were called in. If it were an accident, she could have and in all likelihood would have immediately called the police her own self. It would not have been 31 days later and by her mothers hand-she would have called them her own self. A TRUE REAL accident would hold no fear of the police and would likely have involved an ambulance and life restoring measures. None of this happened.

Accidental deaths do not require layer upon layer of duct tape over the face. What accident have you ever heard of that required the face to be taped over with duct tape?

The entire imaginanny scenario tells us there was no accident. Who would invent an imaginary nanny to cover up an honest accident? All of Casey's lies from day one and right up to this very day belies the entire accident theory. One does not lie cheat and steal to hide an accident.

Sneaking in and out of the house avoiding any face to face contact with her parents says there was something Casey was hiding and her parents would know it if they SAW her. Who hides like that from an accident?

Casey never once claimed there was an accident. She claimed there was a kidnapping, so where does the accident fit into that scenario? It was an accident but I decided to pretend a kidnapping instead, because the accident was that I overdosed her and hear death was the result of a negligent act on my part, then, yeah, that would certainly be grounds to "hide" the accident, which would not BE an accident at all, but a negligent act that resulted in death.

There is no evidence that suggests accident to me. All the evidence suggests foul play of one sort or another.

 

[lin]

I don't see why the tape wouldn't be admissible.

On another note...I'm really glad I started this thread. The replies have all contained great points and at some point (after the next document dump) I will make a list of all the evidence/actions that point against an "accident" theory (as opposed to evidence like the heart stickers and laundry bags and such that merely connect Casey to a dead Caylee). Oh and - "one_hooah_wife" - great point about the "evidence" that the defense won't in fact use an accident defense (why would they be interested in the forensics?) To be honest, I was relieved to read your reasoning in there b/c I really do not want to see an accident defense after all this (they wouldn't even admit it was Caylee's dead body in the trunk...it was another dead body!) Thanks again for everyone's input. As more doc dumps happen, let's keep adding to the list of "no accident" type evidence.

Haven't gotten to the end of this thread but wanted to add lists that may help.

IM conversation with ID wherein KC states 'never been happier' and 'loves the nanny.'


(Incomplete) List of behavioral evidence, including 'beautiful life' tattoo.