Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[cecybeans]

The thing that bothers me is that I have listened to a few TH lawyers on various news shows saying that all this evidence we have seen so far do not point to Casey herself doing this, that it could just as easily point to someone else. Unless her fingerprints or some other identifying DNA was on the duct tape, then it's going to be hard to prove it was Casey, but almost impossible to prove premeditation. I don't know... this case just doesn't look like a slam dunk to me. I hope I'm wrong, but some of these TH's seem to know what they are talking about. What do I know?

Well hopefully these talking heads are getting paid to say stuff like that; I doubt any one of them, if asked, would like to be on the defense team.

Even if there is no forensic evidence pointing to KC the defense has to establish reasonable doubt. Since the fake nanny theory is so obviously false, what other reasonable explanation would there be as to who would have killed her? I just don't think a jury would buy it that Jesse or Ricardo or any other person KC knew had any solid motive or opportunity to kill Caylee. IMO if the nanny defense is gone, then it is ludicrous to assume anyone else did it, other than another family member, and KC has no record of protecting anyone other than herself. No other person outside that house knew Caylee well enough to have gone to the effort to use items in the Ant house - particularly the time and trouble it took to place a heart sticker over her mouth - to include with the body. The crime scene had KC all over it and nobody else. The fact her body was likely concealed in KC's car also speaks to her only. The operative word here has to be "reasonable" doubt.

 

[trixi491]

It's say to say, but I think Casey is going to walk away from this. I have a bad feeling about it all. No one wants to believe that a mother could murder their child like she did and then go about her life as if nothing happened. It's is incomprehensable, so even though the jury might suspect otherwise, IMO, they will not be able to commit to the murder 1 theory. At least one will say accident, and that will be all it takes. Sad but true. If there was more forensic evidence (say Caylee was drugged over a period of time) then it might go otherwise.

You know they're going to have experts with years of profiling and psycholgical experience to pick out the jurors, they'll pick at least one mother who cannot wrap her head around a murdering mother. She'll walk just as sure as OJ did.

I actually disagree and think having a mother on the jury will be a good thing. Seeing her go to parties and clubs with a smile on her face, renting horror movies with her boyfriend, shopping for beer at Target, getting a "beautiful life" tattoo, and texting people like nothing happened is going to show this girl is not acting like a mother who's daughter was kidnapped or accidentally killed. The only reason someone could be that happy is if they selfishly and intentionally killed their daughter. Besides, as sad as it is, we all do know there are mothers who kill their children not out of psychological reasons, but out of selfishness (aka Susan Smith who killed her children b/c the guy she liked wasn't ready to have a family) and I'm sure that case will be brought up in trial at some point or another. Especially since, like KC, she tried to make up some bogus story about them being taken by a carjacker and went on national tv with her crocodile tears pleading for their safe return.

 

[LLH]

I think Casey's failure to demand a safe return of Caylee could actually be consistent with a "I didn't kill her intentionally" theory. If it was an "accident", Casey knew Caylee was dead and why would she make pleas for her return? She'd say "I didn't mean to kill her. I lied to everyone b/c I didn't want anyone to know what happened. I didn't make a plea for her return b/c I knew she was dead." Of course, there is plenty of stuff out there that does go against the "accident" theory and I'm looking to keep track of it on this thread in case we get blindsided with an "accident" defense.

I can agree to a point, however, it points strongly to a murder and cover-up. Casey has maintained that Caylee was kidnapped for the past 8 months, yet there is not one iota of evidence to support her story. Casey could say " I didnt mean to kill her" but after 8 months of emmotionless lying and stealing,
who is going to believe anything she says? She could say " elephants are pink" but that doesnt mean they are. She has annhiliated her own credibility...
and I think this is an important factor. If she were "afraid " to admit the truth, pleas for Caylees return would fit in with her story....lack of concern proves only that she is as cold hearted as she appears. ..and portrays someone who could easily just dump their dead child in a swamp. JMO

 

[rice09]

It's like this. There is no way that anyone can disprove that it was an accident, unless the autopsy has more info that we are not aware. Thus far what has been presented is quite honestly, circumstantial. Overwhelming and compelling as it is... and I believe it was premeditated by Casey...however, the defense (for now) is going with "she is innocent." If we were in a jury pool and there is any doubt whatsoever between an accident/coverup.....or premeditation....one is going to have to give compelling reasons for each view. Just knowing a lawyer started the thread and wants to know the general publics interest, for either side, (accident or premeditated) makes me a little nervous. The defense can view all of the answers and come up with their reasonings to prepare for their case.

And the duct tape accidentally put itself on her mouth? Then a sticker flew out of thin air and landed on it? Thats an accident?:waitasec:

 

[MAMABEAR]

I think Casey's failure to demand a safe return of Caylee could actually be consistent with a "I didn't kill her intentionally" theory. If it was an "accident", Casey knew Caylee was dead and why would she make pleas for her return? She'd say "I didn't mean to kill her. I lied to everyone b/c I didn't want anyone to know what happened. I didn't make a plea for her return b/c I knew she was dead." Of course, there is plenty of stuff out there that does go against the "accident" theory and I'm looking to keep track of it on this thread in case we get blindsided with an "accident" defense.

I think this is a good idea. If defense can use any of this then more power to them. Poor peeps need all the help they can get. They have "NOTHING" but a cold blooded murder who likes to play games with her lawyer. What ever they try to get out of this is what KC tells them to do. If they try to give her an "out", she won't want it because it takes the "control" out of her hands.

The Ants come across to me as---"We are in charge and what you say means nothing because we are a powerful group and you can't touch us". So with that mentality it is the facts that will come out in court, not the "LIES" they have spewed. In court they will have to say "yes" and "no" answers and wont be able to sway the conversation to their favor because they have to just answer the questions. Right?

 

[MAMABEAR]

Well hopefully these talking heads are getting paid to say stuff like that; I doubt any one of them, if asked, would like to be on the defense team.

Even if there is no forensic evidence pointing to KC the defense has to establish reasonable doubt. Since the fake nanny theory is so obviously false, what other reasonable explanation would there be as to who would have killed her? I just don't think a jury would buy it that Jesse or Ricardo or any other person KC knew had any solid motive or opportunity to kill Caylee. IMO if the nanny defense is gone, then it is ludicrous to assume anyone else did it, other than another family member, and KC has no record of protecting anyone other than herself. No other person outside that house knew Caylee well enough to have gone to the effort to use items in the Ant house - particularly the time and trouble it took to place a heart sticker over her mouth - to include with the body. The crime scene had KC all over it and nobody else. The fact her body was likely concealed in KC's car also speaks to her only. The operative word here has to be "reasonable" doubt.

:clap::clap::clap:
You go gurl.

 

[chastity]

I think the duct tape around her head is the strongest proof it was not an accident. I could see freaking out and not knowing what to do if there was an accident{hmm, maybe 911}, but why wrap the duct tape around. I just don't see how anyone is gonna get around this.

 

[LLH]

I agree H.P
The defense has the formidable task of dealing with a known liar...and a stone-cold one at that. Even if Casey were to testify to an accident, the defense MUST make the jury believe her, AND at the same time defend her cold and calculated actions before and after the death.

This is why I believe the lack of Pleas for Justice are not in the Defense's favor at all.

 

[NJ Lawyer]

I can agree to a point, however, it points strongly to a murder and cover-up.

I'm trying to understand over here, but you said that Casey's failure to demand Caylee's return is incompatible with Casey accidentally killing Caylee. But...if a person accidentally or intentionally killed someone, that person knows the victim is dead and she/he wouldn't be inclined to demand the victim's return. On this particular thread, I thought it would be good to focus on evidence that isn't compatible with an "accidental" defense (acknowledging of course, that there's tons of bad stuff stuff out there about Casey - her actions, her character, etc.) and forums already discussing it. Was just thinking it would be good to focus on stuff the prosecution will need to focus on if (God Forbid) the defense tries to use an "accident" defense at the last moment.

 

[NJ Lawyer]

I have no doubt that CMA will be convicted of murder one, I just wish she'd get the death penalty so she can look forward to that pesky needle in her arm.

Amen to that.

 

[NJ Lawyer]

I think the duct tape around her head is the strongest proof it was not an accident. I could see freaking out and not knowing what to do if there was an accident{hmm, maybe 911}, but why wrap the duct tape around. I just don't see how anyone is gonna get around this.

I've always avoided asking this b/c it just makes me want to break down and cry but.....what do people exactly think Casey did with this duct tape? I guess since it wasn't over her nose, I never thought of the duct tape as the actual cause of her death. I've always thought that the stain in the car and the smell means that Casey was probably freaking out about bodily fluid dripping out of poor Caylee. If the area around Caylee's mouth was dripping decomp fluids (see why I never raised this question?), I wouldn't think Casey would just stick one piece of tape on the mouth-only area. I'd think she'd do one full wrap around with duct tape, so it would stay on and not drip anymore.

Ugh. I'm so depressed thinking about it.

Edited to add: If defense is going to argue that poor Caylee's death was an accident and the "only reason" the duct tape ended up there was to prevent the poor baby's decomp fluids from leaking......I hope they don't expect the jury to say "Oh, okay! So glad Casey didn't kill using the duct tape! She just used it to stop those fluids is all. No problem! Let's let her free." In other words, defense is going to have an ugly job explaining that duct tape either way.

 

[magnolia]

It's say to say, but I think Casey is going to walk away from this. I have a bad feeling about it all. No one wants to believe that a mother could murder their child like she did and then go about her life as if nothing happened. It's is incomprehensable, so even though the jury might suspect otherwise, IMO, they will not be able to commit to the murder 1 theory. At least one will say accident, and that will be all it takes. Sad but true. If there was more forensic evidence (say Caylee was drugged over a period of time) then it might go otherwise.

You know they're going to have experts with years of profiling and psycholgical experience to pick out the jurors, they'll pick at least one mother who cannot wrap her head around a murdering mother. She'll walk just as sure as OJ did.

Sadly, I agree with you.

 

[Where's Andre]

It's say to say, but I think Casey is going to walk away from this. I have a bad feeling about it all. No one wants to believe that a mother could murder their child like she did and then go about her life as if nothing happened. It's is incomprehensable, so even though the jury might suspect otherwise, IMO, they will not be able to commit to the murder 1 theory. At least one will say accident, and that will be all it takes. Sad but true. If there was more forensic evidence (say Caylee was drugged over a period of time) then it might go otherwise.

You know they're going to have experts with years of profiling and psycholgical experience to pick out the jurors, they'll pick at least one mother who cannot wrap her head around a murdering mother. She'll walk just as sure as OJ did.

I think this is the chief motive for taking the death penalty off the table.

 

[kaRN]

The problem I have with this theory is the duct tape was not just stuck on to the mouth ie: to prevent fluids from leaking- it was wrapped, it was stuck to the sides of her hair, the hair had to be cut away from it.

I go along with Dr. Perper's firm theory: the placement of duct tape on the child shows the child was assaulted. It shows the murder was intentional.

I agree with Dr Perper..and you! All thoughs of an accident went out the window for me with the mention of duct tape. The heart sticker just compounds that.

WARNING GRAPHIC- After death body fluids pool to the areas of the body closest to the ground due to gravity. The top facing up will appear pale and waxy and the bottom or back, dark blue or black. The fluids then seep from the skin itself. If a corpse is face down, perhaps fluids would leak from the mouth, but also the eyes, nostrils, ears and any area the skin had completely broken down so IMO, the duct tape placement is much more nefarious.
At this point, after all the lies and destruction of so many peoples lives, I don't care if there was an accident. There were no calls to 911. There was no skeletal trauma per the ME and there probably would have been if KC had tried CPR, there was no pause to mourn or grieve and certainly no inkling of a conscience suggesting KC deserves to walk free or ever have the opportunity to breed again.
I really think if there was an accident, KC would have broken down at some point. If she's willing to sit in jail for the better part of 8 months, with no privacy or life and the DP a very real possibility in her future, to cover a drowning or whatever else, then she's got even bigger psycho-social issues than we give her credit for. At least in MHO. :twocents:

 

[Duckley]

I dont know much about Florida Law... but lets say it was an accident in that she did not intend to kill Caylee but nontheless, Caylee died. She panicked and decided to make it look like a kidnapping. She would still be charged with involuntary manslaughter, obstruction of justice, child endangerment, illegal disposal of a body etc etc. couldn't she? This is why I think it is smart not to go for the death penalty!

 

[Where's Andre]

Edited to add: If defense is going to argue that poor Caylee's death was an accident and the "only reason" the duct tape ended up there was to prevent the poor baby's decomp fluids from leaking......I hope they don't expect the jury to say "Oh, okay! So glad Casey didn't kill using the duct tape! She just used it to stop those fluids is all. No problem! Let's let her free." In other words, defense is going to have an ugly job explaining that duct tape either way.

I think accident covered-up to look like an abduction out of fear her family and friends wouldn't forgive her is the best they can hope for.

I doubt it would work, as it's about as complex and way-out as an alien abduction alibi. I see seeds of this in LA's-- I believe everything my sister told me depo. I'm hoping additional forensic evidence, and the growing preponderance of other circumstantial evidence will favor the simpler interpretation of the facts.

Hoofbeats means horses, not a zebras and unicorns.

 

[autumnlover]

I agree with Dr Perper..and you! All thoughs of an accident went out the window for me with the mention of duct tape. The heart sticker just compounds that.

WARNING GRAPHIC- After death body fluids pool to the areas of the body closest to the ground due to gravity. The top facing up will appear pale and waxy and the bottom or back, dark blue or black. The fluids then seep from the skin itself. If a corpse is face down, perhaps fluids would leak from the mouth, but also the eyes, nostrils, ears and any area the skin had completely broken down so IMO, the duct tape placement is much more nefarious.
At this point, after all the lies and destruction of so many peoples lives, I don't care if there was an accident. There were no calls to 911. There was no skeletal trauma per the ME and there probably would have been if KC had tried CPR, there was no pause to mourn or grieve and certainly no inkling of a conscience suggesting KC deserves to walk free or ever have the opportunity to breed again.
I really think if there was an accident, KC would have broken down at some point. If she's willing to sit in jail for the better part of 8 months, with no privacy or life and the DP a very real possibility in her future, to cover a drowning or whatever else, then she's got even bigger psycho-social issues than we give her credit for. At least in MHO. :twocents:

ITA. I think we're worrying for nothing, friends. I think we're letting the Jayne Weintraubs of the world get to us. In all of my years of following criminal cases, KC has to be the single most despised defendant I can recall. JB is pulling up the rear with his band of stooges because they are defending her. The forensics in this case are secondary to the fact that she did not report her child missing for 31 days (and wouldn't have if CA didn't) and went partying wrapped around a pole. That's all a jury has to know. You can throw everything else out the window. The fact that she lied to LE and led them on a wild goose chase cements the guilty verdict. Manic, shmanic, she's going down.

 

[kaRN]

I've always avoided asking this b/c it just makes me want to break down and cry but.....what do people exactly think Casey did with this duct tape? I guess since it wasn't over her nose, I never thought of the duct tape as the actual cause of her death. I've always thought that the stain in the car and the smell means that Casey was probably freaking out about bodily fluid dripping out of poor Caylee. If the area around Caylee's mouth was dripping decomp fluids (see why I never raised this question?), I wouldn't think Casey would just stick one piece of tape on the mouth-only area. I'd think she'd do one full wrap around with duct tape, so it would stay on and not drip anymore.

Ugh. I'm so depressed thinking about it.

Edited to add: If defense is going to argue that poor Caylee's death was an accident and the "only reason" the duct tape ended up there was to prevent the poor baby's decomp fluids from leaking......I hope they don't expect the jury to say "Oh, okay! So glad Casey didn't kill using the duct tape! She just used it to stop those fluids is all. No problem! Let's let her free." In other words, defense is going to have an ugly job explaining that duct tape either way.

I had a theory when we first heard about the duct tape, that KC had placed it over her eyes, because they were open and she couldn't bear to have Caylee looking back at her. Over time and decomposition, the tape slipped down to her skeletal mouth. Then I found out about the sticker and the theory was shot.
I just can't wrap my mind around ever placing duct tape, for any reason on a 2yo child...dead or alive unless you didn't want them to scream for some reason and didn't care if they got tape caught in their hair. Casey wasn't planning on removing that tape IMO.

 

[maryaok]

Well, that is a good reason not to go for the Death Pen. I did hear one of the attorneys say that even if she get's off murder one, she's still going away for a very long time on the charges you listed, including also, child abuse, of course. I don't know though, if they were to lose on the murder 1 conviction, that they could continue to prosecute her on the lesser charges. I think they get only one chance to prosecute you criminally.

They could pursue her again in civil court, but that would only be for money damages, which she won't have any ever anyway, so what dif would that make.

 

[PattyCake]

Caylee's death was clearly an accident.

CMA was teaching Caylee how to mix homemade chloroform when a gust of wind accidentally tore a piece of duct tape off the roll that was sitting there and blew it over to Caylee where it accidentally wrapped itself tightly around her mouth & hair, causing her to accidentally fall into the trunk where another strong wind gust accidentally blew a heart sticker onto the duct tape directly over her mouth. Caylee wanted to finish making the chloroform so CMA put the fresh batch in the trunk with her but then Caylee accidentally crawled into not one but two black garbage bags and then a third white bag before CMA realized she couldn't get her out of the trunk with all of those bags on her. CMA was in a hurry to go rent movies with her boyfriend so she accidentally forgot to call 911 for help or tell anyone what had happened. Then after accidentally forgetting Caylee was in the trunk for a few days, she decided to take her back to G & C's but accidentally made a wrong turn onto Suburban and then by accident left Caylee in the woods where she went as a kid, accidentally hiding her under the thick entangled plant-life.

I really wish people like you would stop posting stuff like this. It only gives the defense good strategies to use. You know, like the homeless guys driving a van that kidnapped Laci. :crazy: