Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[LLH]

I'm trying to understand over here, but you said that Casey's failure to demand Caylee's return is incompatible with Casey accidentally killing Caylee. But...if a person accidentally or intentionally killed someone, that person knows the victim is dead and she/he wouldn't be inclined to demand the victim's return. On this particular thread, I thought it would be good to focus on evidence that isn't compatible with an "accidental" defense (acknowledging of course, that there's tons of bad stuff stuff out there about Casey - her actions, her character, etc.) and forums already discussing it. Was just thinking it would be good to focus on stuff the prosecution will need to focus on if (God Forbid) the defense tries to use an "accident" defense at the last moment.

Bolded by me. A person spinning a tale of a kidnapping would almost certainly
include a plea for the childs safe return...just as a parent would do if the child were really kidnapped.

Im trying to say that, if Casey claims it was an accident, it would read something like this to a jury...
' I was on the computer and Caylee was playing with her toys, and when I turned around she was gone. I found her in the pool and panicked. I didnt want my parents to find out so I put her in the trunk of my car to boil in the heat, then sealed her mouth with duct tape, and went out to rent movies about a dead child to watch with my b/f. Since I didnt kill her on purpose I felt fine about going out and partying and celebrating the good life. I had to lie to LE and the FBI because they were asking me annoying questions I couldnt answer truthfully because lying and stealing is what I do best. It would be positively stupid to ask for her return, because I knew I wrapped her in garbage bags and tossed her in the swamp. So, yes it was an accident and I couldnt grieve.'

That scenerario was created by me as an example and nothing more . I am just trying to make a statement about the lack of pleas for Caylees return being a negative for the defense.

 

[Schmerty_Jones]

The theories are AMAZING!!!! Just remember Casey is no OJ. with the football "Juice" & adulation. She is also not in the racial concerns & lying about using the word and abuse of blacks by Furhman.
Casey killed a helpless baby & evidence of the decomposing body was in her trunk along with the hair with the deathband.
So Casey as football hero or a member of an abused minority ? or a movie star or ??? NO . Perhaps her claim to a virgin birth of Caylee...but some how I don't think it would be believed.:waitasec:

 

[NJ Lawyer]

....After death body fluids .....so IMO, the duct tape placement is much more nefarious.

Interesting. I had thought the mouth would be the most significant cause of leakage and the area Casey would want to cover to prevent anyone knowing she had Caylee's body in the car. Okay so if Casey didn't place the duct tape on poor Caylee's mouth (and around her head) to prevent leaking decomp fluids, why did she do it? Was the duct tape the murder weapon and cause of death (she used tape for the mouth and held her nose? I HATE THINKING OF THIS)? Or did Casey somehow stick the duct tape on to make it look like a kidnapping and that plan went awry?

 

[Pattymarie]

Did we ever determine, on the day of the probable killing, what all her "flurry" of unanswered phone calls to her parents were in regard to? (When my kids call/text me on the phone, they don't ever go unanswered for very long.)
We know Casey was a cell phone addict with a phone paid for by her mom. We know that is how they kept in touch "daily." Why, suddenly a flurry of calls and why no answer?

 

[cyberborg]

Timing. Coincidences.

Timing will nail KC.
- 31 days while *never* reporting,
- the disappearance of Caylee the day after the big CA blow-up,
- KC seen in Blockbuster happy within 24 hours of "accident",
- 55 days to party before KC would HAVE to produce Caylee on her birthday

There are too many coincidences that tie together as KC escalated out of control.

This new 'brilliant' attorney is purported to weave an accident theory that explains everything BUT will KC allow an accident theory or be stup!dly stubborn and stick to her Nanny kidnap -- KC does NOT like to admit the truth no matter what the cost and the accident theory is a climb down from what KC said. KC will go to trial rather than plead any accident before trial, she'd rather go down for LWOP than back down. She is in it to win it.

 

[cyberborg]

People whose children drown accidentally call the police and the paramedics or take them to the hospital hoping against hope that someone can revive them. They mourn and have funerals. They don't throw their children away like trash in swamps. Plus, the police are on tape with Casey almost begging her to say that there was an accident. She was dogged and determined to resist their efforts to get her to take an easy way out. The accident train left the station a long, long time ago. This woman has behaved so horribly to her friends and family, to the citizens of Florida, the US and the World, and most especially toward her own baby that she MUST do serious jail time. This was no accident. If it was, she would have said so a LOOOOOONG tiime ago.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

 

[cyberborg]

Excellent theory. I hope they get someone like you to lead the jury. Unfortunately, did you know, the average American in this country is educated to the eigth grade level? Who knows what it is in Florida. I hope the jurors can formulate such an argument and debate it with all seriousness, but I doubt it.

Just listen to the same ridiculous dribble that keeps coming in as live calls to NG and all the rest on this case. You really think the average person is going to reason like you do? Let's keep our fingers crossed.

Great point!! Scary.

What's worse, intelligent, reasoning, logical minded folks typically get voted off the Jury.

 

[MAMABEAR]

Interesting. I had thought the mouth would be the most significant cause of leakage and the area Casey would want to cover to prevent anyone knowing she had Caylee's body in the car. Okay so if Casey didn't place the duct tape on poor Caylee's mouth (and around her head) to prevent leaking decomp fluids, why did she do it? Was the duct tape the murder weapon and cause of death (she used tape for the mouth and held her nose? I HATE THINKING OF THIS)? Or did Casey somehow stick the duct tape on to make it look like a kidnapping and that plan went awry?

I think think KC left the house with Caylee screaming for her grandmother--she was got so pizzed that Caylee would scream for the bi!ch that just jumped her butt because Caylee told grandma some things that mama had been doing------Caylee sleeping in the same bed as KC and a man and no telling what else----so KC stopped the car-----wrapped d/t around her head---she was so mad at CA and caylee tattling and threw baby Caylee in the trunk. Maybe tape covered mouth and nose or KC held nose. She drove around until Caylee quit bangin in the trunk. She then went and had her 1st night of total freedom.

I think the heart was placed when she moved the body from the trunk.

 

[Pattymarie]

I think think KC left the house with Caylee screaming for her grandmother--she was got so pizzed that Caylee would scream for the bi!ch that just jumped her butt because Caylee told grandma some things that mama had been doing------Caylee sleeping in the same bed as KC and a man and no telling what else----so KC stopped the car-----wrapped d/t around her head---she was so mad at CA and caylee tattling and threw baby Caylee in the trunk. Maybe tape covered mouth and nose or KC held nose. She drove around until Caylee quit bangin in the trunk. She then went and had her 1st night of total freedom.

I think the heart was placed when she moved the body from the trunk.

Whatever happen to the results of the stain in the trunk of the car?

 

[MAMABEAR]

Whatever happen to the results of the stain in the trunk of the car?

Didn't say she took her from trunk that next morning. But she had to wrap Caylee sometime and before she did--she put the heart sticker on the tape.

 

[trafficsUP66]

Did we ever determine, on the day of the probable killing, what all her "flurry" of unanswered phone calls to her parents were in regard to? (When my kids call/text me on the phone, they don't ever go unanswered for very long.)
We know Casey was a cell phone addict with a phone paid for by her mom. We know that is how they kept in touch "daily." Why, suddenly a flurry of calls and why no answer?

It could have been any number of things as Casey was the 'absolute' Queen of cell/texting use & abuse!

She could've needed some gas money NOW to get to Tony's...... she could've had a message for them she got from some one that needed passing on...... she could've wanted to carry on the argument from the previous night..... on & on & on & on..............

I do not believe every single action begs answers or explanation. This would be ridiculous. Not to mention, Caylee was already dead at the time of those calls, according to the timing.

One caller on either Wed or Thurs night said there is a VOLCANO of evidence on her and I have to agree.

It's the TOTALITY of the CIRCUMSTANCES altogether which leads to only one answer: She is guilty of pre-meditated 1st degree murder.
The duct tape would not have adhered to Caylee after death in order to stop the seepage because the skin becomes oily and far too fluid for it to stick to the skin...... also, it would have been throughout her hair and would not stick there either. The only logical, common sense reason for it's use was to silence Caylee during the assault on her life.

And that's another thing to think about. There must be REASONABLE and LOGICAL explanations in order to create reasonable doubt. Those explanations altogether must make common sense. Just as the evidence tells a cohesive story, so must the defendant's explanations. Attempting to tear down each individual piece of evidence is one thing, but if your left with a jumble of stories that won't all tie together at the end of it all........... that's not reasonable doubt. Just a bunch of illogical excuses!

Casey lied, her family lied........ Circumstances do not lie. From day 31 on, there is NO reasonable justification for the sudden death of this child that makes any other COMMON sense than a deliberate act in which this 'mother' then carried on with her normal life as before the loss of her child. The only difference, she had her freedom and avoided any & all accountability for her 'lost' child. She showed no fear and no sense of loss.

I have every faith that juror's will use their common sense, will see that there is an overflowing volcano of evidence and that it fits with only the one answer: LWOP.

We've seen people convicted of murder 1 on far less evidence than in this case. Not only no COD but no crime scenes, no trails leading back to the trunks of cars AND the perp's households. We've had convictions without bodies!
Add the mountains of lies and behavioral evidence and it altogether screams justice for Caylee. Even an eighth grader would have the ability to come to a logical conclusion after hearing all the evidence in this case.

KC had the chance way back to use the accident excuse when offered limited immunity to lead LE to Caylee's remains. Why didn't she?

Because even though they could not use her leading them to Caylee to convict her, they could use any evidence found with her body which refuted accidental death. KC & JB knew this, thus she left Caylee out there and counted on her never being found.

IMO, the reason for her reaction video taped on Dec 11th.

Her ONLY chance at mercy for herself is a plea deal. But, that won't happen now because imo the state has all they need to put her away forever!

 

[cyberborg]

ITA. I think we're worrying for nothing, friends. I think we're letting the Jayne Weintraubs of the world get to us. In all of my years of following criminal cases, KC has to be the single most despised defendant I can recall. JB is pulling up the rear with his band of stooges because they are defending her. The forensics in this case are secondary to the fact that she did not report her child missing for 31 days (and wouldn't have if CA didn't) and went partying wrapped around a pole. That's all a jury has to know. You can throw everything else out the window. The fact that she lied to LE and led them on a wild goose chase cements the guilty verdict. Manic, shmanic, she's going down.

Speaking of JW above, I was amused when on HLN show that attorney Mark E set aside his defense position and pressed JW on how she / the Defense would respond to the '31 days'. JW fluffed and blustered but then admitted that that one is tough.

 

[rice09]

ITA. I think we're worrying for nothing, friends. I think we're letting the Jayne Weintraubs of the world get to us. In all of my years of following criminal cases, KC has to be the single most despised defendant I can recall. JB is pulling up the rear with his band of stooges because they are defending her. The forensics in this case are secondary to the fact that she did not report her child missing for 31 days (and wouldn't have if CA didn't) and went partying wrapped around a pole. That's all a jury has to know. You can throw everything else out the window. The fact that she lied to LE and led them on a wild goose chase cements the guilty verdict. Manic, shmanic, she's going down.

I dont think Jayne W believes the things she says. You can just tell.

 

[Kimster]

Great thread! Members already mentioned the facts that I would have mentioned.

After reading all of this information compiled into one thread, it only makes me wonder why LE isn't going for the DP. I feel it is justified.

 

[suepitzl]

Interesting. I had thought the mouth would be the most significant cause of leakage and the area Casey would want to cover to prevent anyone knowing she had Caylee's body in the car. Okay so if Casey didn't place the duct tape on poor Caylee's mouth (and around her head) to prevent leaking decomp fluids, why did she do it? Was the duct tape the murder weapon and cause of death (she used tape for the mouth and held her nose? I HATE THINKING OF THIS)? Or did Casey somehow stick the duct tape on to make it look like a kidnapping and that plan went awry?

IMO, the duct tape was placed on her mouth to shut her up, to stop her from throwing a tantrum or something.......

 

[MAMABEAR]

Whatever happen to the results of the stain in the trunk of the car?

Oh! sorry. Maybe I misunderstood. Maybe they are with holding that info.

 

[accordn2me]

.... That's why I'm interested to know when Casey wrote the journal entry saying "I'm happy with the decision I made. I hope the end justifies the means." If she wrote that a few days after Caylee's death, I think it goes against an accident theory. Maybe doesn't disprove it, but really calls it into question. ....

Why do you think the diary comment goes against/calls into question the accident theory?

Devil's advocate here: She couldn't get anyone on the phone during the "flurry" of calls, so she made the decision to spare her family (really herself) the devastation of Caylee's death by choosing to dispose of the body and claim the nanny has her, she's OK, she's close.... Although, they were really in hell over not knowing where she was, and the media scrunity (which I don't believe KC expected), they had hope that Caylee would be found alive.

Maybe the diary entry was referring to such a decision (i.e. let them have hope...and her continue her lifestyle...for as long as possible). Does anyone know the date of the entry yet?

 

[Jolynna]

Interesting. I had thought the mouth would be the most significant cause of leakage and the area Casey would want to cover to prevent anyone knowing she had Caylee's body in the car. Okay so if Casey didn't place the duct tape on poor Caylee's mouth (and around her head) to prevent leaking decomp fluids, why did she do it? Was the duct tape the murder weapon and cause of death (she used tape for the mouth and held her nose? I HATE THINKING OF THIS)? Or did Casey somehow stick the duct tape on to make it look like a kidnapping and that plan went awry?

To keep anyone from hearing Caylee's screams.

That's what gags are for.

 

[Marina2]

Interesting. I had thought the mouth would be the most significant cause of leakage and the area Casey would want to cover to prevent anyone knowing she had Caylee's body in the car. Okay so if Casey didn't place the duct tape on poor Caylee's mouth (and around her head) to prevent leaking decomp fluids, why did she do it? Was the duct tape the murder weapon and cause of death (she used tape for the mouth and held her nose? I HATE THINKING OF THIS)? Or did Casey somehow stick the duct tape on to make it look like a kidnapping and that plan went awry?

I think the position of the mouth under the duct tape will be very revealing as to why or when it was placed there. IIRC, it's stated in the documents that the duct tape had to be carefully cut from the hair in order to preserve the integrity of the position it was found in on the skull.
If the mouth was in a closed position when the tape was removed, it was probably placed there while Caylee was alive. Especially if no insect residue/remnants appear on the tape. This will be investigated thoroughly.

If placed after death to conceal something very unsightly, the mouth, most likely, would be in an open position under the tape. Maggot masses occur in the head area first, invading the mouth, nose, and eyes. Also, in death, the mouth is usually open. Depending on the timeline, it may be frozen open in rigor mortis. Imagine KC putting the tape on after death. Is she going to close the mouth to do it? I don't think so. I don't think she ever looked at her again after placing her in the bags let alone cleaned up the mouth area, closed the mouth and put the tape on.

IMO, the position of the mouth under the tape and evidence of maggots, etc. on it will tell if it were placed there before or after death. A closed mouth under the tape would be great evidence against accidental death.

ETA: To answer the question of why she did it. I think she struck out at Caylee on the night of the 15th causing great injury and a lot of crying from Caylee. To shut her up and keep CA from waking and coming in the room she put the duct tape over her mouth. She put Caylee in bed and told her to go to sleep. With stopped up nasal passages from crying and duct tape on her mouth, Caylee suffocated. KC found her dead after she got through talking on the phone and/or computer activities and got in bed to go to sleep.

 

[rice09]

I think the duct tape has more to do with kc's evil ways than that of trying to seal the mouth for fear of leakage. She didnt think of the leakage through the cloth laundry bag that left a stain in her trunk. Until after the fact.

Some say the duct tape was to silence caylee. Maybe true, but prob not done in the car. Unless kc always carried around duct tape. Which leans more to her being killed in the home. Its very unlikely kc would kill her somewhere other than the home, then bring her back dead into the house and put duct tape and a sticker on her mouth...wrap her in the blanket, then place her in the laundry bag. GA was in and out of work, I think she would fear him walking in on this.

I am just convinced she came back after Ga went to work on the 16th. She prob watched him leave or watched him pull into his job to verify she had plenty of time. Was the flurry of calls to make sure everyone was at work??Then she killed caylee and did all the other stuff (sticker, etc).....Placed her in the trunk and "forgot" about her in her own sick way until she started to smell her.