Evidence That is Incompatible With an Accident Theory

[shgrbkr]

IMO, the duct tape was placed on her mouth to shut her up, to stop her from throwing a tantrum or something.......

I have always believed the duct tape was placed to keep Caylee quiet, rather than for leakage purposes. After death, EVERY orifice can leak fluids. Only one allows a person to scream. What we don't know is were the hands and feet also taped? There were other pieces of duct tape found at the dump site that were collected, and we haven't seen the test results of those have we? Just because the tape wasn't found around the bones means nothing--it could easily slip off while underwater or if animals had gotten to it. With the passive-aggressive nature of the women in that family, I think KC taped Caylee up till she couldn't move, then shoved a boatload of chloro in her face, killing her quietly. I'm hoping the other pieces of duct tape still had some skin cells or something that will link it to Caylee forensically.
If the diary entries are proved to be from 2008, she's toast.

 

[Rumpole]

The Null Hypothesis of this thread is that there are individual items of evidence that are incompatible with Caylee’s death being an accident, and refute “Accident” as a viable defence. Until there is evidence in regards to Cause of Death, I think accident is not totally disproved.
My view is that no item of evidence revealed to us so far is totally inconsistent with Accident. That does not mean that I think that the accident defence will be successful. There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence against it, but only taken in totality, not proved by individual items of evidence.
KC's behavior, even within hours of likely time of death, and her likely appalling treatment of the body, may well be crimes in themselves, but they COULD have followed an accident?

I would note though that in the absence of evidence as to cause of death it could at this stage be ascribed to "Heart attack, or a rare disease causing instant death, an asthma attack, or even a death ray from an alien Phaser, we just do not have any evidence.

However, if the defence decides to argue the possibility of some "innocent" cause of death, I think they have to do far more than raise that as an irrational supposition; they have to at least convince a jury that it is a reasonable explanation. I am no expert but I can not see how such a defence can gain any purchase unless KC not only testifies, but admits repeated lies and obfuscation of the LE investigation.

I am not disagreeing that duct tape and lots of other things DO suggest guilt, but they are circumstantial, and each thing does not prove it was not an accident. It could just prove KC is a very sick puppy and did a lot of horrible stuff that no normal person would do, but still after and accident.
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[rice09]

Who puts duct tape on their baby's mouth after an "accident"?
Who puts the baby in their trunk for days after an "accident"?
Who comes up with lies after lies about where the child is after the "accident"?
Who then throws the child into the woods triple bagged after the "accident"?
Who parties their pants off after an "accidental" death or any type of death for that matter, of their baby?
Who DOESNT call 911 in the seconds after an "accident"?

Hmmmm....I know, because it was no accident. Someone thought she could get away with MURDER!

 

[LCoastMom]

I think the position of the mouth under the duct tape will be very revealing as to why or when it was placed there. IIRC, it's stated in the documents that the duct tape had to be carefully cut from the hair in order to preserve the integrity of the position it was found in on the skull.
If the mouth was in a closed position when the tape was removed, it was probably placed there while Caylee was alive. Especially if no insect residue/remnants appear on the tape. This will be investigated thoroughly.

If placed after death to conceal something very unsightly, the mouth, most likely, would be in an open position under the tape. Maggot masses occur in the head area first, invading the mouth, nose, and eyes. Also, in death, the mouth is usually open. Depending on the timeline, it may be frozen open in rigor mortis. Imagine KC putting the tape on after death. Is she going to close the mouth to do it? I don't think so. I don't think she ever looked at her again after placing her in the bags let alone cleaned up the mouth area, closed the mouth and put the tape on.

IMO, the position of the mouth under the tape and evidence of maggots, etc. on it will tell if it were placed there before or after death. A closed mouth under the tape would be great evidence against accidental death.

ETA: To answer the question of why she did it. I think she struck out at Caylee on the night of the 15th causing great injury and a lot of crying from Caylee. To shut her up and keep CA from waking and coming in the room she put the duct tape over her mouth. She put Caylee in bed and told her to go to sleep. With stopped up nasal passages from crying and duct tape on her mouth, Caylee suffocated. KC found her dead after she got through talking on the phone and/or computer activities and got in bed to go to sleep.

This hurt my heart to read, I can't imagine putting tape across that sweet babies face for any reason, I just can't make my mind go there. I have a feeling the SA is going to have to be very careful when presenting this to a jury. I could imagine sitting in this jury and having to excuse myself to be sick if some of the things we've discussed prove true. I never ever want to see the picture of the skull with tape across it, my imagination works too well on it's own.

On to another unsavory thought you've brought up, anything that has access to the nasal passages, the eyes or ears would have no trouble accessing the mouth, they would just gain access through the back door so to speak.

This makes me think of that that really horrible picture of Caylee crying really hard with her hands reaching out to be picked up. Who took the time to snap that shot rather than picking up that poor distressed baby.

 

[shgrbkr]

Who puts duct tape on their baby's mouth after an "accident"?
Who puts the baby in their trunk for days after an "accident"?
Who comes up with lies after lies about where the child is after the "accident"?
Who then throws the child into the woods triple bagged after the "accident"?
Who parties their pants off after an "accidental" death or any type of death for that matter, of their baby?
Who DOESNT call 911 in the seconds after an "accident"?

Hmmmm....I know, because it was no accident. Someone thought she could get away with MURDER!

As Lee so laughingly said in his depo, "When somebody has your child and tells you to do something...you do it!"
Hogwash!
I'm semi-stunned that the defense may very well be heading down that very road. I hope the jurors don't turn out to be that gullible.

 

[Theonly1]

I have always believed the duct tape was placed to keep Caylee quiet, rather than for leakage purposes. After death, EVERY orifice can leak fluids..

I agree--every orifice and every wound could potentially leak fluids. Fluids don't all come rushing out of the mouth alone...

Add to these facts the rates for decomposition would be at their highest peak in the hot Florida summer and in a steaming Florida car trunk. Add to this the FACT that there were evidence of flies/maggots and, frankly, this would have been a messy situation very quickly. It would be NOTHING that putting a swatch of duct tape on Caylee's mouth was going to dam.

 

[Baznme]

I agree--every orifice and every wound could potentially leak fluids. Fluids don't all come rushing out of the mouth alone...

Add to these facts the rates for decomposition would be at their highest peak in the hot Florida summer and in a steaming Florida car trunk. Add to this the FACT that there were evidence of flies/maggots and, frankly, this would have been a messy situation very quickly. It would be NOTHING that putting a swatch of duct tape on Caylee's mouth was going to dam.

This is true but...........shortly after death the leakage would have begun via the nose/mouth. I believe once she placed the duct tape on the mouth/face, that the last time she looked at the body before closing up the bags. The progression of decomposition took place from that point on and within days the stench must have been overwhelming.

 

[Themis]

The first thing expelled after death is fecal matter and urine. That's why the "stop leakage" theory doesn't sound right to me. The more compelling scenario is the duct tape was applied prior to death either to silence or to hold the chloroform absorbant material.

 

[100%Agave]

I've always avoided asking this b/c it just makes me want to break down and cry but.....what do people exactly think Casey did with this duct tape? I guess since it wasn't over her nose, I never thought of the duct tape as the actual cause of her death. I've always thought that the stain in the car and the smell means that Casey was probably freaking out about bodily fluid dripping out of poor Caylee. If the area around Caylee's mouth was dripping decomp fluids (see why I never raised this question?), I wouldn't think Casey would just stick one piece of tape on the mouth-only area. I'd think she'd do one full wrap around with duct tape, so it would stay on and not drip anymore.

Ugh. I'm so depressed thinking about it.

Edited to add: If defense is going to argue that poor Caylee's death was an accident and the "only reason" the duct tape ended up there was to prevent the poor baby's decomp fluids from leaking......I hope they don't expect the jury to say "Oh, okay! So glad Casey didn't kill using the duct tape! She just used it to stop those fluids is all. No problem! Let's let her free." In other words, defense is going to have an ugly job explaining that duct tape either way.

I think that she used the duct tape to shut her up. After the fight with CA, KC grabs up Caylee and storms out of the house. She drives down the block and parks like she always does. She is texting AL hoping that he will invite her over. Caylee is screaming and crying and begging for her CeCe. KC tells her repeating to shut the F up. Caylee won't comply. How about a sticker Caylee? If I get you a sticker will you shut up? KC has left the house with little more than the clothes on their backs and can't go back right now. She rummages through the trunk for something, anything to make Caylee stop crying. She happens on the roll of duct tape she borrowed from AH laying beside one lone heart sticker left over from God knows what and all of a sudden she knows exactly what she is going to do. She is yelling at Caylee and Caylee still won't shut up. She takes the duct tape and slaps it across her mouth (it might or might not have covered her nose). Caylee is struggling so she tapes her arms and legs. She slaps the sticker over Caylee's mouth and tells her Here's your f'in sticker. Caylee is still struggling, but at least KC can't hear that carp now. This is where my theory goes 3 different directions.

1. KC goes back to texting and Caylee finally quiets. She text for several more hours, then checks on Caylee and she is gone. She is in a panic for about 10 seconds, then says "Oh well, tomorrow is another day."

or

2. KC then decides that now is the time to finish it. She is still PO'd at CA and Caylee is on her last nerve. She places her hands over Caylee's nose and mouth and finishes it right then. She places Caylee in the trunk and goes back to texting.

or

3. KC then decides that now is the time to finish it and uses Chloroform she has stored in the trunk for whatever reason and places a rag soaked with it over Kaylee's nose. She either gives her too much accidentally or on purpose but the results are the same.

Either way, as far as I am concerned it is murder. In the first scenario she may not have intended for it to happen but in FL a child that dies while being neglected or abused is still murder. In the second, she knew exactly what she was doing and murdered Caylee in cold blood. In the third, whether she knew or did not know that using Chloroform on Kaylee would most likely kill her does not matter because she used a deadly substance on a child when that substance has been banned for use even on adults because it can result in death.

I am still not convinced that the chloroform was actually used in the crime. It may have been used for other purposes and is really just an unfortunate red herring.

 

[shgrbkr]

Since we have no COD, and no toxicology reports from the hair, another possibility is that KC trussed Caylee up and then smothered her with a pillow. This would be easily accomplished after drugging Caylee with chloro first too.
I dont' know...any number of non-accidental scenarios could fit and we'd never know the truth because the autopsy didn't show the COD. I wondered if the hair would show a one-time dosing of chloro, but I'm doubting it because the administration of it being very near the time of death.
I do NOT want to see her walk on an accidental death defense. I don't think that will happen because she won't testify and if she does, the prosecution will crucify her on the stand. She destroyed all credibility years ago.

 

[Cookie278]

To me the ONLY thing compatible with a accident is her immaturity. I can't see KC dealing with the reality of "bodily fluids". More likely, IF it was a accident, it would be a loss of temper. Angry at her mother, Caylee crying, wanting her to stop, that kind of thing. Duct tape will make her be quiet. Then when the unthinkable happens, KC would need to hide it. A few bags and stash it out of sight until she can figure out what to do. Maybe a few hours later or a day, a heart sticker gets placed, in some misguided show of love. When she can no longer avoid it, due to smell, or maybe a close call, she dumps the body.

But even this doesnt get past 31 days of no sign of remorse or sadness. The biggest danger in this case is over thinking it. Sometimes the simplest answer is best. And for KC I don't think any scenario that fits even the simplest facts gets her off the hook.

 

[MomofBoys]

And probably the most damning - to this day there has been no plea for Caylees safe return, no outcry for justice, no demand to find a murderer. And it is too late now, the public realilzed this a long time ago. The defense cannot spin this issue either, it is what it is. The story is right out of the Twilight Zone.

But hey, they handed out flyers outside of a Publix. That lasted at least a day.

The emotional dynamics in this case mystify me. KC waited 31 days to report Caylee missing. Obviously the biggest initial red flag, but it took 31 days for CA to finally call LE. I have no doubt G and C loved Caylee, but this was a child that lived with them, and from all reports it seemed as though CA was the parent in the equation. They were all very aware of KC's deception, the thefts, etc.

I'm not a giant thieving liar, but if I couldn't produce my boys to their grandmother after 31 days, all while making excuses as to their whereabouts? My mom would freak out, and I don't even live with my parents! Why would she worry? Because she knows my patterns. We make plans to meet at the playground, and when I call, I let my toddler talk to her as well. My mom isn't the intrusive type, but if we lived in her house and she never saw my sons? I mean, the road to denial both intersects with and parallels Hopespring Dr.

I've met and talked with the As, and found them to be very nice people. The circumstances of our meeting was awkward, but G in particular was open and kind.

All that to say is the lack of Ronald Cummingsesque emotion has always been jarring to me, and that I think the As know that Caylee died at KC's hand and that it wasn't an accident. I think there is blame passed around and self-recrimination in the family, maybe stemming back to the KC and CA fight that one night. My belief is that KC had the perfect opportunity. She got in an awful fight with her mom, and a result of that fight was her telling her mother that she wouldn't see Caylee again. Given the spec regarding custody, etc, it was the perfect context in which to make Caylee disappear for good. CA could just believe KC was pouting and keeping Caylee away, not knowing the permanence of KC's actions. Meanwhile, it served KC's dual purpose of allowing the freedom of a child-free and empowered existence.

Meanwhile, CA was left to post angrily bewildered MySpace messages and to tiptoe around KC. Because maybe if she played it cool, KC would bring Caylee home to them and her playhouse and her dolls.

All that to say that I not only think it was premeditated, it was planned in such a way to give KC the ultimate control. Get rid of a liability and achieve power while doing it. Even in jail, she still has power over them. She'll have that power until they decide they can walk away.

The skull imagery and her actions after the fact disturb me on a whole other level. Going to Blockbuster and partying might speak to antisocial personality disorder, but actively searching out pictures of skulls and skeletons? I don't know what that means. What it does tell me is that I can picture that same person killing their daughter with intent. Something is definitely broken in there.

 

[debs]

MomOfBoys, what the Anthony family demands we believe is that everything was normal and Casey and Caylee were "breathing" through the door when Cindy went to work on the 16th, that George saw his "girls" heading out the door on what was a "normal" day. If there was a fight, wouldn't it HELP to say "Hey, you know, we had a mighty row on this day. I don't know if it's helpful, but here it is." Doesn't it seem weird to have conflicting statements from Cindy (the myspace message about spite having taken her Caylee who was now missing) and her statements that she talked to her daughter every day and everything seemed just fine. If there was a fight, and we do not know there was, Cindy's myspace comment makes sense and her statements later about normalcy does not. If there was no fight, Cindy's myspace comment makes no sense and her statements about normalcy are more of the qualifiers we've seen over and over. Cindy also answers the question as to why she didn't look for Caylee in those 31 days. She says (something to the effect of) "She wasn't missing. She was with her mother." This statement isn't made because Cindy believes it (at this point, Cindy knows for a fact that Caylee wasn't with Casey. The 31 days missing was already well established.). She wants her listener (LE) to believe it. She doesn't say "I thought she was with her mother, I didn't know she was missing." The assertion in her statement, and the lack of afterthought in it....well, I keep on this theme today, I guess. Cindy is making it so that we begin to rewrite what WE know: We know Casey did not have Caylee, and yet Cindy makes the statement that Caylee WAS with her mother.

This is more than a stylistic linguistic exercise. There is real manipulation going on in these statements and a twisting of the truth to be what the Anthony's want us to believe it is even if we see the obvious impossibility of their version. It astounds me.

 

[MomofBoys]

The public declarations of support never bothered me when there was a .0000000001% chance that Caylee was alive. Enrage KC, and they'd never get the answers. I could see their mindset and their wanting to cling to any vestige of hope. Privately, you had bits like CA's MySpace and GA's more frank discussion with LE. I kept hoping that in the docs we'd see something like you mentioned. A worried CA saying "Oh, see, we had this nasty blowout..."

You WOULD think that they would have done anything or said anything if it brought Caylee even an inch closer to them, but no. I can't imagine why KC was allowed to keep them hostage emotionally, you know? It can't be blackmail, can it? I don't believe the As had anything to do with the death, and I understand their unconditional love or whatever it is, but their lack of ability to step up for Caylee truly boggles the mind. Now, and when this case started.

 

[Cat13067]

I feel KC's lying speaks volumes. If this was a girl with no history of stealing, and lying we may be more inclined to believe Caylee death was an accident, and KC actually had FEELINGS for other people that she wanted to protect. KC hated her mother, and father. Her relationship with her brother certainly wasn't honest and upfront either. So who was she trying to protect from being honest with LE and tell them Caylee died by accident. The answer is nobody! KC cared about one person KC period. Do you really think if she got on the stand and told the jurors a story about how she accidently killed Caylee they would believe her. I mean REALLY!

 

[Rumpole]

I feel KC's lying speaks volumes. If this was a girl with no history of stealing, and lying we may be more inclined to believe Caylee death was an accident, and KC actually had FEELINGS for other people that she wanted to protect. KC hated her mother, and father. Her relationship with her brother certainly wasn't honest and upfront either. So who was she trying to protect from being honest with LE and tell them Caylee died by accident. The answer is nobody! KC cared about one person KC period. Do you really think if she got on the stand and told the jurors a story about how she accidently killed Caylee they would believe her. I mean REALLY!

I am convinced of KC's guilt.
I do think there is more evidence yet to be released, but as things stand, with no COD determined, I think a good lawyer (not JB) could mount a defence. No matter what bizarre things KC did after the death, it is a huge circumstantial indication of guilt, but does not PPROVE the cause of death.

 

[DotsEyes]

What is inconsistent with an accidental death, panicked cover-up, followed by manic behavior caused by a break in reality due to guilt, shame and remorse?

She is sitting in jail waiting until her first degree murder trial to tell the "real, real, real" truth through the high-paid mouths of experts rather than her own.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maximum culpa.

 

[debs]

What is inconsistent with an accidental death, panicked cover-up, followed by manic behavior caused by a break in reality due to guilt, shame and remorse?

She is sitting in jail waiting until her first degree murder trial to tell the "real, real, real" truth through the high-paid mouths of experts rather than her own.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maximum culpa.

There is nothing inconsistent in your first sentence, but the inconsistency happens when you add the second. (FYI, I am not saying YOU are inconsistent; I am saying Casey's behavior was/is.) Sitting in jail facing the charges she is facing, the time to scream it was an accident was while she had her lawyer, and the offer was on the table.

 

[DotsEyes]

debs - I was just asking and answering the question as best I could.

The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. JMHO

 

[Cat13067]

The Null Hypothesis of this thread is that there are individual items of evidence that are incompatible with Caylee’s death being an accident, and refute “Accident” as a viable defence. Until there is evidence in regards to Cause of Death, I think accident is not totally disproved.
My view is that no item of evidence revealed to us so far is totally inconsistent with Accident. That does not mean that I think that the accident defence will be successful. There is a mountain of circumstantial evidence against it, but only taken in totality, not proved by individual items of evidence.
KC's behavior, even within hours of likely time of death, and her likely appalling treatment of the body, may well be crimes in themselves, but they COULD have followed an accident?

I would note though that in the absence of evidence as to cause of death it could at this stage be ascribed to "Heart attack, or a rare disease causing instant death, an asthma attack, or even a death ray from an alien Phaser, we just do not have any evidence.

However, if the defence decides to argue the possibility of some "innocent" cause of death, I think they have to do far more than raise that as an irrational supposition; they have to at least convince a jury that it is a reasonable explanation. I am no expert but I can not see how such a defence can gain any purchase unless KC not only testifies, but admits repeated lies and obfuscation of the LE investigation.

I am not disagreeing that duct tape and lots of other things DO suggest guilt, but they are circumstantial, and each thing does not prove it was not an accident. It could just prove KC is a very sick puppy and did a lot of horrible stuff that no normal person would do, but still after and accident.
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I guess we need to wait for all the evidence to come out, because right now there is not anything that clearly says Caylee death was not an accident even though in our hearts we know this mother murdered her baby.