Evidence

[Jolynna]

I think I was one who compared adipocere to bacon grease, to give a visual idea of what it was when the information first came out.

Preservative and other further testing has probably been done, but I don't think we've seen those tests. We've only seen the VFA analysis, which determined the substance on the toweling could be pig or animal.

I don't think the presence of adipocere is consistent with 2 or so days in the trunk, based on what I've read, but I could well be wrong.

Link to some info about adipocere, pg 15 of 19:
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

BBM

The analysis determined the substance on the paper toweling contained fatty acid ratios consistent with pig or human decomposition.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

According to the e-mails between Yuri and Vass, there were no meat products in the trash or trunk.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4081493&postcount=1"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...93&postcount=1[/ame]


Your link is accurate but it doesn't include every variable.

A body sealed in bags in a hot car trunk is not going to break down the same way a body would decompose if it were outside or buried in soil. Children decay faster than adults. Different parts of the body decay at different rates. Decay is faster in the tropics. If a body is clothed and then put into a plastic bag, adipocere production is promoted...especially if the clothes are polyester. Adipocere can leak from the body and into the surrounding soil (or car trunk).

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/65/04700127/0470012765.pdf Pages 15-17 CAUTION & WARNING...pages 15-17 are fine and have no pictures, but other pages in the pdf are explicit.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

BBM

The report determined the substance on the paper toweling contained fatty acid ratios consistent with human or pig decomposition.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

According to the e-mails between Yuri and Vass, there were no meat products in the trash or trunk.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...93&postcount=1



A body sealed in bags in a hot car trunk is not going to break down the same way a body would decompose if it were outside or buried in soil. Children decay faster than adults. Different parts of the body decay at different rates. Decay is faster in the tropics. If a body is clothed and then put into a plastic bag, adipocure production is promoted. Adipocure can leak from the body and into the surrounding soil (or car trunk).

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/excerpt/65/04700127/0470012765.pdf Pages 15-17 CAUTION & WARNING...pages 15-17 are fine and have no pictures, but other pages in the pdf have explicit pictures.

Very informational *is that a word?* anyway, graphic but when one thinks why we are researching this, it is worth the read.

 

[twomanywords]

latent fingerprint info on page 5

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/03/04/amended.pdf

 

[treeseeker]

Resp snipped from Jolyanna:

Your link is accurate but it doesn't include every variable.

A body sealed in bags in a hot car trunk is not going to break down the same way a body would decompose if it were outside or buried in soil. Children decay faster than adults. Different parts of the body decay at different rates. Decay is faster in the tropics. If a body is clothed and then put into a plastic bag, adipocere production is promoted...especially if the clothes are polyester. Adipocere can leak from the body and into the surrounding soil (or car trunk).

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0470012765.pdf Pages 15-17 CAUTION & WARNING...pages 15-17 are fine and have no pictures, but other pages in the pdf are explicit.

This is a really good link. It does, though, again mention taking weeks to form adipocere.
If the substance on the toweling does prove to be human, it kinda calls into question the LIBS testing IMO. I'm open to that, because the post-mortem root band on the hair I think would be more consistent with finding adipocere, and a longer time in the trunk than 2 or 3 days. The LIBS report did say it was a sort of crude method of determining PMI, so maybe a longer time in the trunk is how the SA will present its case.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Resp snipped from Jolyanna:

Your link is accurate but it doesn't include every variable.

A body sealed in bags in a hot car trunk is not going to break down the same way a body would decompose if it were outside or buried in soil. Children decay faster than adults. Different parts of the body decay at different rates. Decay is faster in the tropics. If a body is clothed and then put into a plastic bag, adipocere production is promoted...especially if the clothes are polyester. Adipocere can leak from the body and into the surrounding soil (or car trunk).

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0470012765.pdf Pages 15-17 CAUTION & WARNING...pages 15-17 are fine and have no pictures, but other pages in the pdf are explicit.

This is a really good link. It does, though, again mention taking weeks to form adipocere.
If the substance on the toweling does prove to be human, it kinda calls into question the LIBS testing IMO. I'm open to that, because the post-mortem root band on the hair I think would be more consistent with finding adipocere, and a longer time in the trunk than 2 or 3 days. The LIBS report did say it was a sort of crude method of determining PMI, so maybe a longer time in the trunk is how the SA will present its case.

If you look at Jolyanna's first link in her post (great post by the way) at the section titled "1. Paper towels" you will see this statement regarding the decomp on the paper towels: "This implies that the conversion of oleic acid could have occured during the month the car was sitting in the summer heat."

This says to me that the material (fatty tissue? :sick on the paper towels continued the decomposition process in the trunk of the car even after the body was removed. So the body was placed in the trunk on June 16th, left in there up to 2.6 days during which time clean-up and bagging occurred, then dumped. The paper towels used for clean-up were left in the trunk until removed by law enforcement on or around July 17th. That's four weeks which would be typical for adipocere formation.

 

[Harmony 2]

Resp snipped from Jolyanna:

Your link is accurate but it doesn't include every variable.

A body sealed in bags in a hot car trunk is not going to break down the same way a body would decompose if it were outside or buried in soil. Children decay faster than adults. Different parts of the body decay at different rates. Decay is faster in the tropics. If a body is clothed and then put into a plastic bag, adipocere production is promoted...especially if the clothes are polyester. Adipocere can leak from the body and into the surrounding soil (or car trunk).

http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0470012765.pdf Pages 15-17 CAUTION & WARNING...pages 15-17 are fine and have no pictures, but other pages in the pdf are explicit.

This is a really good link. It does, though, again mention taking weeks to form adipocere.
If the substance on the toweling does prove to be human, it kinda calls into question the LIBS testing IMO. I'm open to that, because the post-mortem root band on the hair I think would be more consistent with finding adipocere, and a longer time in the trunk than 2 or 3 days. The LIBS report did say it was a sort of crude method of determining PMI, so maybe a longer time in the trunk is how the SA will present its case.

page 16 of this document speaks to the correlation of the techniques (mentions adipocere and LIBS):

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19801995.pdf

 

[BondJamesBond]

The wadded up paper towels found in Tony's trash in KC's car trunk might be as damaging as the duct tape. On them was a substance like pig or human decomposition. The substance was infested with maggots.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/jazlynsmum1/papertowelanalyis.png

There was no fruit in the Pontiac trunk. It sounds like the flies from this e-mail exchange are "coffin flies" which would mean the maggots were baby "coffin flies". There is no mention of any other kind of flies

IF there were only "coffin fly" maggots on the paper towels and no blow-fly maggots, as Dr. Vass said, that is significant. It shows Caylee was probably put in the pontiac trunk alive.

Just putting Caylee into a trash bag would not have kept blow flies away.

http://74.6.239.67/search/cache?ei=...Q&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=RPx1W2CaBN9s.2FiWa7ocA--

In one of the last motions from KC's defense, discovery from the entomologist was specifically requested. Could the entomologist hold the smoking gun that will prove aggravated child abuse and murder one?

Whatever was wiped up on the towels, like the stain, was probably degraded from being in the Pontiac trunk.

Heat and moist airtight environments are the enemy of DNA. That is why DNA evidence is not supposed to be put in plastic bags and left in hot cars. (http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/bc000614.pdf page 4) Casey did both.

That the stain had degraded to the point where DNA could not be extracted does not mean Caylee's body wasn't ever in the car trunk. There was an impression. The car stunk. KC was texting Amy about a dead animal plastered on her car.

Being sealed in 2 trash bags in a plastic lined laundry bag in the Pontiac trunk in Florida during the summer is the worst possible environment for DNA. Then there was some cleaning by the 'rents on July 15/16.

That is everything you're not supposed to do to DNA and then some.

jmo

Just a quick pause to say big TY :thumb: to Jolynna for such excellent, informative and concise posts. :clap:

Would appreciate some expanding on the comment, "Just putting Caylee into a trash bag would not have kept blow flies away." I believe I understand what you mean, but, don't wanna assume I do. Did you mean "coffin" vs. "blow" flies in this statement? Excerpt from Wikipedia suggesting to me you meant "coffin"...

"Megaselia scalaris (i.e. coffin flies) are small in size; this allows them to locate carrion buried within the ground and to locate bodies concealed in coffins.[11] They can travel 0.5 m in a four day period.[11] They lay their eggs on carrion to provide food for the hatched larvae.

Often, Megaselia scalaris may be the only forensic entomological evidence available if the carrion is obstructed or concealed in a place that is hard for other insects to reach.[12] Larger flies are not always able to reach the carrion."​

If I understand correctly, wouldn't the absence of blow fly evidence suggest that
(a) Caylee's body was never out of the trunk for any period of time post-mortem (e.g. stashed even temporarily in G&C's backyard) prior to disposal on Suburban Dr., AND
(b) the trunk of the Pontiac was not reopened for any significant amount of time after the body was removed. IOW...the paper towel clean-up took place at the time the body was bagged and/or disposed (say...~6/19 or 6/20) and after the body was disposed, apart from the 6/23-6/24 gas can in & out episode , the trunk remained closed and until 7/15. :waitasec:

 

[treeseeker]

Resp snipped from Dear Prudence:
This says to me that the material (fatty tissue? ) on the paper towels continued the decomposition process in the trunk of the car even after the body was removed. So the body was placed in the trunk on June 16th, left in there up to 2.6 days during which time clean-up and bagging occurred, then dumped. The paper towels used for clean-up were left in the trunk until removed by law enforcement on or around July 17th. That's four weeks which would be typical for adipocere formation.

This was my sort of my first thought when the info came out. Did the decomp on the towels solidify when brought in to a temp-controlled environment, or even refrigerated to preserve evidence?

If VFAs and decomp were removed from their original environment (tightly bagged, clothed body) into an alternate environment (trash bag from AL) would it continue the process of forming adipocere on its own, sans body, in the trunk?

If the towels were used to wipe decomp after 2-3 days, it seems there would be a variety of biologicals on them, not just adipocere, all by itself. If there were sloughing (so sorry) of tissue that contained adipocere, there should also be tissue.

 

[Dear Prudence]

Resp snipped from Dear Prudence:
This says to me that the material (fatty tissue? ) on the paper towels continued the decomposition process in the trunk of the car even after the body was removed. So the body was placed in the trunk on June 16th, left in there up to 2.6 days during which time clean-up and bagging occurred, then dumped. The paper towels used for clean-up were left in the trunk until removed by law enforcement on or around July 17th. That's four weeks which would be typical for adipocere formation.

This was my sort of my first thought when the info came out. Did the decomp on the towels solidify when brought in to a temp-controlled environment, or even refrigerated to preserve evidence?

If VFAs and decomp were removed from their original environment (tightly bagged, clothed body) into an alternate environment (trash bag from AL) would it continue the process of forming adipocere on its own, sans body, in the trunk?

If the towels were used to wipe decomp after 2-3 days, it seems there would be a variety of biologicals on them, not just adipocere, all by itself. If there were sloughing (so sorry) of tissue that contained adipocere, there should also be tissue.

All great questions. I've wondered the same things and can only make guesses at the answers. I'm really hoping they have someone at trial who can put together all the scientific knowledge with the circumstances of what happened in that trunk and make sense of it for someone like me or a juror.

 

[treeseeker]

Maybe we could all chip in and hire our own biology professor?

 

[Jolynna]

Just a quick pause to say big TY :thumb: to Jolynna for such excellent, informative and concise posts. :clap:

Would appreciate some expanding on the comment, "Just putting Caylee into a trash bag would not have kept blow flies away." I believe I understand what you mean, but, don't wanna assume I do. Did you mean "coffin" vs. "blow" flies in this statement? Excerpt from Wikipedia suggesting to me you meant "coffin"...

"Megaselia scalaris (i.e. coffin flies) are small in size; this allows them to locate carrion buried within the ground and to locate bodies concealed in coffins.[11] They can travel 0.5 m in a four day period.[11] They lay their eggs on carrion to provide food for the hatched larvae.

Often, Megaselia scalaris may be the only forensic entomological evidence available if the carrion is obstructed or concealed in a place that is hard for other insects to reach.[12] Larger flies are not always able to reach the carrion."​

If I understand correctly, wouldn't the absence of blow fly evidence suggest that
(a) Caylee's body was never out of the trunk for any period of time post-mortem (e.g. stashed even temporarily in G&C's backyard) prior to disposal on Suburban Dr., AND
(b) the trunk of the Pontiac was not reopened for any significant amount of time after the body was removed. IOW...the paper towel clean-up took place at the time the body was bagged and/or disposed (say...~6/19 or 6/20) and after the body was disposed, apart from the 6/23-6/24 gas can in & out episode , the trunk remained closed and until 7/15. :waitasec:

:blowkiss: Hi BJB,

I read several sites about flies, so, I may have read that "blow flies" can get in trash bags on another site. But, I definitely did read that "blow flies" can get through trash bags.Which means if Caylee was out in the Anthony backyard (or anywhere else) at all after death, even encased in trash bags, blow flies would have found her.

The absense of "blow fly" maggots and presence of "coffin fly" maggots means either Caylee was entombed in the trunk alive or that Caylee went into the trunk immediately after death.

And yea...if there were only "coffin flies" and not "blow flies" that suggests that KC didn't open her car trunk very much or for very long between June 16 and June 27.

 

[Amity]

I've scrolled the topics and the closest place to put this is here.....Evidence.

If this is in the wrong place, just move it on out, Mods. *smile*

Reading this article this morning, really got me thinking some negative thoughts: Someone getting off Scott Free? *shudder*

I realize this article is about scent dog 'lineup' but something tells me defense lawyers all over the country are going to have a field day bringing in question the other dogs ie; rescue, decomp scent, search, etc.

Decomp Scent Dogs will be scrutinized....as in, will someone be able to throw out the dogs' scent find from the A's back yard....not being allowed in testimony?
~~~~~~~
Dogs Sniff Out Wrong Suspect - Scent Lineups Questioned

The Innocence Project of Texas calls the practice "junk science that's being used by prosecutors and judges to convict people." The nonprofit group, which is dedicated to discovering and overturning wrongful convictions, wants state governments to ban the use of dog-scent lineups. It says an unknown number of people have been wrongly accused or convicted from the dog-scent lineups.
~~~~~~~
Full CNN Article:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10/05/texas.sniffer.dogs.controversy/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

 

[Jolynna]

Adipocere can be produced quite quickly following death, even before the body has undergone much decomposition. http://www.spectroscopynow.com/coi/cda/detail.cda?chId=4&id=18055&type=Feature&page=1

While adipocere is often found in bodies in water, it is the absence of air and limiting the access of insects that are key to adipocere formation.

A corpse with an above-average body mass will either decompose (putrefy) all the way to a skeletal state, or will enter into an adipocere formation stage (assuming that there is little or no exposure to air). This is the key to adipocere formation; the bacteria that convert the body's fat to adipocere are anaerobic. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae. Obviously, a corpse cannot enter into an adipocere formation stage if all of its soft tissues have been consumed.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html​

 

[treeseeker]

Adipocere can be produced quite quickly following death, even before the body has undergone much decomposition. http://www.spectroscopynow.com/coi/cda/detail.cda?chId=4&id=18055&type=Feature&page=1

While adipocere is often found in bodies in water, it is the absence of air and limiting the access of insects that are key to adipocere formation.

A corpse with an above-average body mass will either decompose (putrefy) all the way to a skeletal state, or will enter into an adipocere formation stage (assuming that there is little or no exposure to air). This is the key to adipocere formation; the bacteria that convert the body's fat to adipocere are anaerobic. These bacteria digest body fat, excreting adipocere and ammonial gases. They do not work well when exposed to air, which is why adipocere rarely forms on body parts exposed to air. Another important factor is the limiting of scavengers and insect larvae. Obviously, a corpse cannot enter into an adipocere formation stage if all of its soft tissues have been consumed.
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/zzaran/Adipocere.html​

Tape on the face. Foil-faced duct tape is designed to be air-tight and water-resistant. If adipocere formation can be that quick, then there it is.

 

[Jolynna]

Tape on the face. Foil-faced duct tape is designed to be air-tight and water-resistant. If adipocere formation can be that quick, then there it is.

Caylee was also put in two plastic bags in a plastic-lined laundry bag in a hot sealed trunk in hot, humid Florida. All of which would be contribute to adipocere formation. And there would no blow flies if Caylee died either in the trunk or was put in the trunk soon after death.

 

[Jolynna]

Plastic bags and a hot trunk aren't good for preserving DNA either.

 

[Just Jayla]

I have looked through and not seen anything about this on this thread or others, sorry if this has already been discussed here-Interesting information regarding the laundry bag that I did not notice-I will have to go back to the docs as well for a direct look:

http://************.com/

 

[abel]

Would like to add something that I noticed. Test results found that in the hair mass with the remains, on the skull, on all 3 pieces of duct tape found with remains and on the duct tape found on the gas cans the test results state that fibers of various types and colors are present. All evidence is preserved for further testing.

That's a potential common link between several key pieces of evidence.

I saw that too and thought that could be some pretty powerful evidence. Of course if none of the fibers on the tape from the skull match anything that connects to KC or the A's home then it could be considered good evidence for the defence, no?

 

[Valhall]

I saw that too and thought that could be some pretty powerful evidence. Of course if none of the fibers on the tape from the skull match anything that connects to KC or the A's home then it could be considered good evidence for the defence, no?

Yeah, or nothing at all, I guess. I'm just curious to see if they did further testing on all these various fibers to see if they were common amongst all items, and then with anything else (say Anthony home carpet, etc.)

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I saw that too and thought that could be some pretty powerful evidence. Of course if none of the fibers on the tape from the skull match anything that connects to KC or the A's home then it could be considered good evidence for the defence, no?

Maybe it would just be an even wash. If nothing matched to Casey the prosecution wouldn't bring it up; if the defense did then SA would just be able to say that the dump site environment had washed any connection to Anthonys away. All other fibers present could then have come from the dump site. My uneducated moo.