family sources say there is a four hour window for abduction

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It's hard to tell from Google maps, but it does seem like there are restaurants in the area. A person with that job might not have a car and might commute on foot. A lot of ex-cons find work in kitchen. Just trying to explore this sighting.

But what is it a sighting of, is the real question. Someone in white walking down the street near a gas station. So? We can't tell if it's a man or a woman, it doesn't appear to be carrying anything, whatever it is, so I just don't see how anyone can say it's connected to this case.

That said...my first thought was it's a female nurse. So I asked InDaMiddle if there was a hospital nearby. She said, not in walking distance. :dunno:
 
oh.. we also have this "ironing out" of inconsistencies from the family source as well:

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15940122/source-says-4-hour-window-for-abduction


what this whole family source stuff reeks of is a message to police: no I didn't say thaaaat... I meant thiiiiis.....

it makes me really nauseous.

Thanks Nursebeeme! When I re-read that article, I realized that the "source" for this detailed account comes from a "family source" and that really does shed some light on the situation. This, apparently is the sequence of events that the family is promoting......nothing rooted in facts, only on family say so.
 
But what is it a sighting of, is the real question. Someone in white walking down the street near a gas station. So? We can't tell if it's a man or a woman, it doesn't appear to be carrying anything, whatever it is, so I just don't see how anyone can say it's connected to this case.

That said...my first thought was it's a female nurse. So I asked InDaMiddle if there was a hospital nearby. She said, not in walking distance. :dunno:

It's true we can't tell gender, which I said upthread, and it's true we can't tell if they're holding anything, which I also said upthread. It's a person on foot in the middle of the night, so I just don't see how anyone can dismiss it if they're really interested in the case. JMO.

Someone on drugs might carry a child around without thinking better of it. For that matter, someone who thought they could just be believed if they said it was theirs if stopped. Child molesters like Philip Garrido take their victims out in public. The child could have been sleeping, or drugged to assist her in sleeping. Or she could have been left in the woods.

For all the talk here, it seems difficult to get clear answers like - what areas have been searched? Those woods? The fields between that intersection and the interstate - an easy departure point for someone handing off a baby.

It seems a natural question to ask, Who might have been wearing white and walking along that road? Thanks for the info on the non-hospital.
 
Thanks Nursebeeme! When I re-read that article, I realized that the "source" for this detailed account comes from a "family source" and that really does shed some light on the situation. This, apparently is the sequence of events that the family is promoting......nothing rooted in facts, only on family say so.

So even in this family produced timeline, the last time another adult besides the parents sees Lisa is BEFORE dad leaves for work. ???? That is very interesting.

Why didn't the neighbor see Lisa anytime after 4:30? Didn't she eat dinner there at 5;30 with her daughter and the family? Where was Lisa at dinnertime?
 
So even in this family produced timeline, the last time another adult besides the parents sees Lisa is BEFORE dad leaves for work. ???? That is very interesting.

Why didn't the neighbor see Lisa anytime after 4:30? Didn't she eat dinner there at 5;30 with her daughter and the family? Where was Lisa at dinnertime?

Also - in one of DB's early interviews, she said she bathed Baby Lisa, put fresh clothes on her, & gave her a bottle.

I've noticed that those activities are absent in the timelines. Between going to the store & buying wine & baby supplies, cooking a chicken dinner, eating dinner, etc., when did DB give the baby a bath, put fresh clothes on her, & give her a bottle, etc.?

Did DB do all that before putting Baby Lisa in her crib @ 4:30? Possibly. But the timelines don't mention it. Those activities haven't been mentioned since Day 1 or 2.
 
But then, what does this kidnapper do...wait in the bushes until SB goes inside at 11:30? There's only a minute window of opportunity in this scenario. 30-40 minutes to creep through an open window in the front of the house, flip on lights, steal cell phones, snatch a baby (which I guess never cries), undress the baby (diaper only, right?), exit through the front door, walk down N Lister and end up over on N Chelsea in order to be seen by the couple at 12:15. :waitasec:

And that scenario doesn't even attempt to explain why a cadaver dog might get a positive hit in the parents bedroom.

I'm not insisting on a particular scenario, just noting that it lines up well. Sometimes abductors DO wait and observe and pick their time. Especially if they were hiding out and watching anyway, if they had some motive for watching SB and DB. Sometimes parents DO hurt their kids. I'm not suggesting one of the other without a shadow of doubt- just pointing out when certain facts make logical sense and when they don't. This one does to me.
 
What I want to know is, if the neighbor didn't see a head nor hair of Lisa after 4:30 and didn't see DB checking in on her and they never heard a sound from the baby monitor that would indicate there was a baby, didn't it seem at all odd to her?

I agree there is something missing with this story... Baby Lisa was in a crib at 4:30 and then checked on again at 6:40 and left until 4:AM...

seems like a long time w/o food or diaper change or Lisa wanting attention...

and three other children inside while moms outside until 10:30... just seems like she would have cried and the children would have gotten mom at some point..
 
It wouldn't be the scruples.....it would be the higher risk of getting pulled over if there was no tag on the car, especially later at night when the cops are looking for trouble makers and suspicious vehicles.

I see what you're saying, but I also see what Donjeta was saying. I don't think someone who comes upon the death of a baby (accidental or intended) and plans to dispose of the body instead of report it in the proper way to the authorites may not be using sound logic in thinking "Gosh, I can't drive a car with no tags and no license because if I get pulled over while ditching this body, I'll be really screwed!!!" I think they are beyond that level of thinking for the most part....

MOO of course.
 
I should have worded it differently, I should have said acted sober, real quick. The person changed their actions entirely after having the s*** scared out of them to the point of not appearing to look drunk. My point was once adreneline hits I think a person could do things they may not have been capable of a few minutes before. (people were asking how DB could be near black out drunk and still be able to hide a body)

Yes, what you're getting at (I think) is that adrenaline dampens the effects of alcohol but does nothing to decrease the concentration of alcohol in the body, yes?
 
Also - in one of DB's early interviews, she said she bathed Baby Lisa, put fresh clothes on her, & gave her a bottle.

I've noticed that those activities are absent in the timelines. Between going to the store & buying wine & baby supplies, cooking a chicken dinner, eating dinner, etc., when did DB give the baby a bath, put fresh clothes on her, & give her a bottle, etc.?

Did DB do all that before putting Baby Lisa in her crib @ 4:30? Possibly. But the timelines don't mention it. Those activities haven't been mentioned since Day 1 or 2.

There is just so little information about what went on with Baby Lisa that day. It really bothers me and send up a big red flag.
 
Also - in one of DB's early interviews, she said she bathed Baby Lisa, put fresh clothes on her, & gave her a bottle.

I've noticed that those activities are absent in the timelines. Between going to the store & buying wine & baby supplies, cooking a chicken dinner, eating dinner, etc., when did DB give the baby a bath, put fresh clothes on her, & give her a bottle, etc.?

Did DB do all that before putting Baby Lisa in her crib @ 4:30? Possibly. But the timelines don't mention it. Those activities haven't been mentioned since Day 1 or 2.

I guess that would put JI right at home ..... Interesting...
 
I think it was between 6:30-8:30 and the 8:30 call to MW's phone was to ask someone to come over and help get rid of her body. It was quick, probably just a "omg, something has happened, get over here now!"

Bingo! MTE.

I woke up very confused this morning and have been milling over this new timeline and what it means. This is what I have come up with. I'm still fuzzy on a few things and please feel free to pick it apart, I might be way off. TIA.

Irwin spent the morning and early afternoon of Oct. 3 working as an electrician. He came home about 2:30 p.m. He ate with his family and played with Lisa, his son and Bradley's son.

Bradley and her brother, Phil Netz, left the home about 4:30 p.m. to go to the Festival Foods in the Northland to purchase a box of wine and baby items. Surveillance video captured them strolling through the grocery store and making the purchases around 4:45 p.m.

One of Bradley's relatives initially told KCTV5 that the alcohol was purchased for an upcoming family event. But Bradley later told reporters that she opened the box that night.

Netz and Bradley returned to baby Lisa's home about 5 p.m. Netz left his sister's home shortly after that, and Irwin headed to perform electrical work at a nearby Starbucks at about 5:30 p.m. He expected to be home later that night. Do we really know when he "expected" to be home? Do we really know that DB "expected" him home at that time? It seems that DB was not concerned that he was over 4hrs late. I find that hinky.

The next-door neighbor, Samantha Brando, was at the home before Netz and Bradley left. Brando came over with her 4-year-old daughter who played with Lisa's older half brothers. It is unclear whether she returned to her home or hung out with Irwin while Netz and Bradley went to the grocery store.

Brando left at about 6 p.m. to purchase alcohol for herself. She returned about 6:30 p.m. and her daughter reportedly remembers seeing baby Lisa in her crib about 6:30 p.m. when Bradley put the baby, who was battling a cold, down to sleep. I find all of this believable. The gals were planning on having a good time while their men were away. I also think it was during this time that DB most likely gave Lisa her bath and got her ready for bed while SB was making the liquor run.

Bradley and Brando then sat on the front stoop, drinking, smoking cigarettes and chatting into the night.I don't believe they never left that porch. They were surely in and out, probably checking on the kids, using the bathroom, refreshing and mixing their drinks. At some point Lisa wakes up and is fussy. . .probably hungry and needing a diaper change. This is where DB recalls Lisa standing in her crib. The gals are now frustrated that Lisa won't go back to sleep and decide to slip her a little something. Alcohol? Xanax? Who knows? This is where DB possibly moves her to the MB with her blanket and gloworm. The window there is close to the porch and away from the boys' bedroom where 3 little kids are possibly making noise and keeping her awake. Girls continue to drink and have "adult time". At some point, shortly before 8:30 DB goes inside and while there also checks on Lisa. DB finds her dead and unresponsive. She freaks out and tells SB OMG! "We" killed her! Ladies panic at this time. Call MW's phone to (lots of possibilities) get someone at that number to help, possibly Jersey, or to track down PN. They realize that was a bad idea. The call goes to voicemail and they leave no message. It's now 8:30ish. They have a little pow wow and decide it's best nobody else knows. They put Lisa and the cell phones in a bag and SB drives her car and dumps her in the river (maybe buries her in the woods, but that would require a shovel and no shovel on the LE search warrant) while DB stays with the kids.

Bradley admits she drank at least five glasses of wine and as many as 10 glasses between when she returned from Festival Foods and 10:30 p.m. She has defended her actions.

"She was sleeping. I don't see the problem with me having my grown-up time," Bradley told a reporter about her getting drunk while overseeing three young children. "I take good care of my kids." I don't doubt that she takes care of her kids. Which is why I don't believe that she didn't leave the porch and check on them. I also don't doubt that she eventually got pretty tipsy, but not yet.

She has said she may have passed out and was so intoxicated that she doesn't remember if she checked on her sleeping daughter when she went to bed at 10:30 p.m.How convenient. But neither of those woman strike me as the kind that would get black out drunk while they have 4 kids in the house, especially a sick baby.

Bradley initially had said she last saw her baby at 10:30 p.m. but later said it was 6:30 p.m. when reporters raised questions about the Festival Foods surveillance video. Because this is when it became clear that a "black out drunk" alibi might be needed. I think her original story was a pretty normal night. But now that LE knows she bought a box of wine and have most likely have seen the empty box in the kitchen, might as well go with the "blacked out drunk don't remember ****" story.

Brando says she last saw the baby at 4:30 p.m. Brando says she stayed outside talking to another neighbor until 11:30 p.m. and noticed nothing amiss so that the abductor could not have taken baby Lisa before then. Brando told police that the lights were out in baby Lisa's house when she went inside and to bed around 11:30 p.m.I don't believe for a second that she never saw Lisa after 4:30. Surely she heard her at least. I think she returns from disposing of Lisa sometime before 10:30pm. DB is very distraught. They are both upset. They drink heavily. It gets late and they realize that the other children have to go to bed. They part ways at 10:30pm and deal with putting the other children to bed. DB can't sleep. The realization that JI might come home soon and she might need an explanation as to why Lisa is not there. She goes on computer maybe and starts devising a plan. SB also can't sleep. She might spend sometime talking with another neighbor. 11:30ish the two hook back up. DB tells SB they need to say Lisa was kidnapped. Talk a bit and then SB (who has a deep hair line) walks down to the dumpster with a doll with some of Lisa's clothing on it and sets it on fire. DB goes inside leaves the door unlocked, the lights on, opens the window and pulls the screen. She gets the boys and moves them to her room to console herself and finally cries herself to sleep until JI comes home.

The Starbucks job kept Irwin longer than he expected, but he did not use his work cell to call home. Bradley has said she was not alarmed by the delay.Because she was still awake with bigger fish to fry.

Police have been able to verify that Irwin was at the Starbucks until about 3:30 a.m. and nothing unusual occurred.I don't believe JI was involved. I just don't want to believe it. He seems to be about the only normal person in all of this. I'm not sure why he is standing by DB through all of this, but his on camera behavior seems hinky to me. I think he does suspect DB knows and is maybe just playing along until she breaks.

Irwin returned to his home about 3:45 a.m. Oct. 4 and immediately noticed that the front door was unlocked and the lights were on. He discovered the window to the computer room was open and attempted to close it but was unable to do so.

He does not remember if the door to Lisa's room was open or not. He found his son in his bunk bed and Bradley and her son together in her bed along with a stray kitten she had just taken in.

Irwin was initially angry to discovery the kitten and the lights were on. He knew the family was in such dire financial straight that their cell phones could not make outgoing calls because of nonpayment. He was concerned about the electric bill and finding a cat at the foot of his bed.I don't doubt any of this, except maybe the kitten being at the end of the bed. That little detail didn't come out until the hit by the cadaver dog was made public. I suspect heavy defense lawyer suggestion here. Just sayin.

Irwin says he woke up Bradley and asked her about the alarming signs in the home. Irwin said he realized he had not checked on Lisa and rushed to do so and found her crib empty.I think this is an over dramatization by the media (ABC exclusives and all.) But I don't doubt that he was angry and did go to check on the kids after sensing something was up with DB.

This discovery sent the couple into a panic. The family's three cell phones were also missing from a counter. Irwin dashed to Brando's house demanding to know whether she had Lisa. She said she did not and asked why Lisa would be there instead of her own home.I think JI did not trust the relationship with DB and SB. SB is having marital problems and I think he suspected that the women were up to no good and maybe cheating while the men were away. I believe that he was PO'd when he showed up at SB's but I don't think he had any idea that Lisa was really missing.

As Bradley crumpled to the floor in a heap and sobbed, Irwin called 911 via his work cell phone. The dispatchers sent officers to check out a residential burglary in progress and that Irwin had reported his daughter missing. The officers were told of a previous theft complaint involving Irwin.I believe that DB was truly beyond distraught and that the realization of what actually happened was finally hitting home.

"The address is 3620 North Lister and the call notes are that he noticed that his 10-month-old daughter is missing and he's not sure how long she's been gone. And the screen is busted and he didn't witness anything," the dispatcher tells an officerAll truth, I think.

The only thing that is bothering me is PN in all of this. I think he might have wandered in during the chaos and DB told him what happened. If not, he is just trying to cover for his sister regardless.

As far as the sightings. I think the first guy might have actually seen SB with the doll. But the lighting and the time of night makes it hard to distinguish. I don't believe his wife, Lisa P, saw anything. The white blob at BP was nothing more than a dishwasher or line cook making their way home. I don't doubt that MT saw something, but the timing is waaaay too late. He waited too long to report it and his mind is playing tricks on him. I think he is trying way too hard to be "helpful." He probably believes what he is saying, but I don't think it's accurate.

All MOO!!!!!!!!!!!

ETA=LE is of course suspicious of Jersey. They pick him up on his outstanding warrant. He has an airtight alibi, there is not forensic evidence tying him to the scene and he passes a polygraph. They keep him locked up and leak a few bits and pieces to see how those are going to be spun by the real players and be able to have a barometer of truth, hoping to catch whoever in enough lies and story changes that when they spring the evidence that Jersey could not have been the perp in court, it will be significant. They don't expect to ever have a body in this crime. :(
 
There is just so little information about what went on with Baby Lisa that day. It really bothers me and send up a big red flag.

But there sure is a LOT of information about DB going to the store to buy a box of wine, as well as a noticeable mention of her drinking BFF going to the store to buy her own "liquor" & when this drinking buddy left & returned.

There sure is a lot of information (in the various timelines, that is) about how these two sat out on the stoop guzzling booze & choking on ciggies.

WTH???

A precious baby girl is missing, and this is what these people choose to detail in their timelines?
 
But there sure is a LOT of information about DB going to the store to buy a box of wine,and their sure is a noticeable mention of her drinking BFF going to the store to buy her own "liquor".

There sure is a lot of information (in the various timelines, that is) about how these two sat out on the stoop guzzling booze & choking on ciggies.

WTH???

The only things I know from the timelines are that she was 'apparently' fine and in her crib at 4:30, she did not eat dinner with the family at 5:30, and she
was put in bed once again at 6:40, and she went missing at some point, with her bottle left on the floor.
 
BBM

Yes, they have.

Page 6 of the State's Motion to Seal Court Records --

"On October 17, 2011 an FBI cadaver dog was brought into the residence upon consent of Irwin and Bradley. The cadaver dog indicated a positive "hit" for the scent of a deceased human in an area of the floor of Bradley's bedroom near the bed."

That is direct from LE.

State's Motion to Seal Court Records --
http://media2.nbcactionnews.com/NWT/pdf/20111021_irwinwarrant.pdf


http://www.kctv5.com/story/15768295/family-of-lisa-irwin

What came out Friday in the court records

I don't know if information that is released from/by the court is/should by considered a leak by LE. I could be wrong about this
 
Quoting hambirg:
Netz and Bradley returned to baby Lisa's home about 5 p.m. Netz left his sister's home shortly after that, and Irwin headed to perform electrical work at a nearby Starbucks at about 5:30 p.m. He expected to be home later that night. Do we really know when he "expected" to be home? Do we really know that DB "expected" him home at that time? It seems that DB was not concerned that he was over 4hrs late. I find that hinky.

It sounds to me like DB wasn't expecting JI home any time soon. Supposedly he was expected home at 10:30 or so but at 10:30 DB was getting into bed and asked if the two boys wanted to share the bed with her. Why, if JI was believed to be minutes away from home? Where would he have slept? Is their bed big enough for two adults and two school boys?
 
http://www.kctv5.com/story/15953146/neighbor-says

Brando sat outside drinking and smoking cigarettes with Bradley from about 6:30 p.m. to 10:30 p.m. Bradley then went to bed while Brando stayed outside talking to a neighbor, the source told KCTV5.

Oh great scott so there is another "neighbor" in the mix
 
Quoting hambirg:


It sounds to me like DB wasn't expecting JI home any time soon. Supposedly he was expected home at 10:30 or so but at 10:30 DB was getting into bed and asked if the two boys wanted to share the bed with her. Why, if JI was believed to be minutes away from home? Where would he have slept? Is their bed big enough for two adults and two school boys?

Ya know, piling the boys into the bed when the father is expected home @ any minute just doesn't make any sense at all.

Here's what I believe: I don't believe either of those boys were ever in the bed with DB that night.

I believe that's one of the reasons DB & JI don't want the boys to be re-interviewed - because the parents don't want the boys to contradict that part of the story (IOW - the boys would say they were in their own beds & not in their parents' bed).

IMO, the claim that the boys were in bed with DB was a manufactured alibi - if the boys were in bed with her, then she couldn't possibly have done anything to harm the baby.
 
Ya know, piling the boys into the bed when the father is expected home @ any minute just doesn't make any sense at all.

Here's what I believe: I don't believe either of those boys were ever in the bed with DB that night.

I believe that's one of the reasons DB & JI don't want the boys to be re-interviewed - because the parents don't want the boys to contradict that part of the story (IOW - the boys would say they were in their own beds & not in their parents' bed).

IMO, the claim that the boys were in bed with DB was a manufactured alibi - if the boys were in bed with her, then she couldn't possibly have done anything to harm the baby.

And the boys would presumably have noticed the dead baby at the foot of the bed (if the HRD dog hit was the real thing).
 

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