Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

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http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/01/meadowlands_hospital_neuroscie.html

The article also described DeFina’s doctorate in clinical psychology from Fielding Graduate University. The school, a mainly online university with monthly in-person sessions, is the only one to receive national accreditation from the American Psychological Association. DeFina’s experimental treatments with neurologist Jonathan Fellus for coma and brain injury have fetched as much as $100,000 from the families of patients who have not improved using traditional means.

Great info swampmama! My husband is a Neurologist and had him have a looksy at this article. He said, " all paths point to QUACK!"

Here's an "out there" question...
Since the family is giving approval to have Jahi's dead body experimented on, could an ethics group sue them?
Any thoughts??
 
Hi everyone. I'm new to MS but have been reading through most of both threads on this. I'm not sure how much can be added to the discussion at this point, but I felt a strong need to weigh in! FYI, I'm a lawyer (in CA), but admittedly not well-versed in these issues.

.

:greetings:

:welcome6:

Great first post! Welcome! Your insight is much appreciated.
 
I doubt it was ever an option. We don't know how healthy her organs were to begin with (she was very young but had obesity and sleep apnea and may have had some problems due to that) but we know that her heart was damaged by the heart attack, her uncle reports that blood was pumped from her lungs making them probably untransplantable too, and the longer she's been without oxygen during the heart attack and the longer she's been brain dead and on the ventilator the more damage there may be to the other organs. That ship has sailed a long ago. Time is of the essence in transplants from brain dead donors. I'm also pretty sure that it was obvious from the first discussions of brain death that the family would never consent to an organ donation even if she was a candidate at that point. I am not sure they would even have bothered asking a family that was clearly having trouble accepting the diagnosis of brain death.

I agree, I can't see the family even considering organ donation. The rest is very confusing for me since I read about a woman who was declared brain dead, but was kept on a ventilator until her fetus was viable enough to be removed...21 days maybe? Likely just my lack of knowledge, but it seems a fetus, depending on the mother's body for life, would die as well. (Trust when I tell you I am stuuuuuuupid when it comes to physiology ...so it's ok to treat me as such when answering :)
 
Another good explanation of how brain death occurs:

When the brain is injured, it responds in much the same way as an injury like a twisted ankle - it swells. Unlike the muscles and tissue of the ankle, however, the brain is in a confined space – the skull – and has no room to swell.

A head trauma, bleeding in the brain from a stroke or aneurysm, or prolonged cardiac arrest that deprives the brain of oxygen will cause the brain tissue to swell. The action of the brain swelling inside a closed space and the build-up of pressure is what can ultimately lead to brain death. As the brain swells inside the skull, it pushes downward toward the brain stem blocking all upward flow of blood. Depending on the type of injury, this may happen within minutes or over a period of days. Even while the heart is still beating and supplying blood to the rest of the body, blood that carries oxygen cannot reach the brain or the brain stem, which controls heart rate and breathing. The result is that the brain and the person dies.
Documenting Brain Death
Declaring someone brain dead involves no subjective or arbitrary judgments. Brain death is a clinical, measurable condition whose formal definition emerged after the President's Commission for the Study of Ethical Issues in Medicine embraced brain death in 1981, when Ronald Reagan was president.

The electroencephalogram (EEG) of someone who is brain dead shows no electrical activity, and an injection of mild radioactive isotopes into the brain reveals the absolute absence of blood flow. People who are brain dead also have no gag response. Their pupils do not respond to light and they do not blink when a swab is run across their eyeballs. They do not respond to pain, and in the absence of signals from the brain, their lungs have stopped working—only the ventilator keeps them "breathing.

MORE
 
Great info swampmama! My husband is a Neurologist and had him have a looksy at this article. He said, " all paths point to QUACK!"

Here's an "out there" question...
Since the family is giving approval to have Jahi's dead body experimented on, could an ethics group sue them?
Any thoughts??

Any idea what their religion is? Isn't part of their argument for keeping Jahi on the machine their religious rights?
 
Great info swampmama! My husband is a Neurologist and had him have a looksy at this article. He said, " all paths point to QUACK!"

Here's an "out there" question...
Since the family is giving approval to have Jahi's dead body experimented on, could an ethics group sue them?
Any thoughts??

IMR: Welcome to WS!
My best "guess" as to why none of the new "interventionists" are AT Children's right this very moment & providing "services" is due to the in hospital ethics & research group/committee/team or whatever they are called and/or the credentialing unit! At least THAT is some protection to Jahi's body!

PS: totally agree with the assessment of your DH! :seeya:
 
Hi everyone. I'm new to MS but have been reading through most of both threads on this. I'm not sure how much can be added to the discussion at this point, but I felt a strong need to weigh in! FYI, I'm a lawyer (in CA), but admittedly not well-versed in these issues.

I think the biggest problem here is the precedent that's being set. Jahi McMath is legally, clinically dead. The law is being extended beyond its breaking point because of a family's grief and inability to let go. It really isn't in issue now if she's dead - she is, by the legally accepted definition and in accordance with procedure. More than enough experts have concurred. At this point, the only argument that could be made is overturning the law related to death, and there simply is no reason to do so. No one has recovered from brain death. While people like Dr. Byrne (and anyone else for that matter) are entitled to believe differently, IE that there is no such thing as brain death, that's not what the medical and legal communities as a whole have found. I fear the future ramifications of these decisions. We're bending everything because of this tragedy, and I personally think this is just making it worse for the family.

One thing that I haven't seen raised here (and forgive me if I'm wrong about that) is the idea that one of the reasons to even have legal definitions of death are to avoid these kinds of situations. I'm not a parent yet, so I can't begin to imagine the pain the family is going through, but if this was my kid or my loved one, I can't begin to fathom how I would get to the point of being ready to turn off the ventilator. When we have this kind of medical technology that simulates life, essentially, by keeping the heart beating, it would be so hard to find acceptance and willingness to stop the ventilator. That's why we need objective, bright line rules. So that we can say, ok, the time has come now, and as much as you don't like this/aren't ready for it, this is what has to happen. Then the family can finally begin to grieve. By allowing this to continue because they aren't ready to let go, the family has just been deluded further into believing there is hope. In my opinion, this never should have gone to court. Where is the legal issue? And even when it did, once the Stanford expert came in and concurred in the brain death declaration, this should have stopped. I've seen it argued that the family should be given time to accept it, but just imagining it for myself...I'm not sure that I would ever get there. How do you accept the death of your child? At some point I'm not sure it's fair to give the parents this kind of authority, because they aren't in a place to be making these decisions. There is too much grief. I just feel it's all gotten incredibly unethical, and as a lawyer, I can't agree with their attorney's willingness to go forward with this case.

That's really a sticking point for me. What is the name of his dog and why is it in this (futile) race?

Welcome to WS...great first post.
 

I'm glad to see this article. This part is especially pertinent, I think:

"The hospital's attorneys argue that since Jahi has already been declared brain-dead, her constitutional rights cannot be violated by taking her off the ventilator.

"There's no violation of any constitutional or statutory rights raised for the first time in this court because there is no parental, religious or privacy right to reject the scientific definition of death developed by medical professionals and enacted by the California legislature into state law with appropriate safeguards," states the motion."

There are so many complicated legal issues in granting these extensions, in her potential transport elsewhere, etc. It's opening a giant can of worms that doesn't seem to need to be opened.

And thanks for the warm welcomes everyone!
 
IMR: Welcome to WS!
My best "guess" as to why none of the new "interventionists" are AT Children's right this very moment & providing "services" is due to the in hospital ethics & research group/committee/team or whatever they are called and/or the credentialing unit! At least THAT is some protection to Jahi's body!

PS: totally agree with the assessment of your DH! :seeya:

Totally agree with you! Just to be clear, I am suggesting that Jahi's family be sued - not the medical team.
 
Glad you brought that up. The court documents linked upthread show Jahi's mother named as the GAL. When I first read Guardian Ad Litem, I thought oh good, until I read Jahi's mother named. I had to read it three times to be sure of what I read.

I wonder why a court appointed GAL is not involved. Jahi needs one.

The Court is probably reluctant to appoint a GAL for a deceased person.
 
Thank you. They must know that Jahi is no longer there...

I have been wondering why she (Jahi) hasn't let her mother know that it's time to let go. This is the one reason that I haven't been able to whole heartedly side with those who feel the plug should be pulled.
Possibly these statements are for a psychic medium thread:))
 
The article I quoted above said that Defina founded International Brain Research Foundation in 2005.
This is apparently their site, hosted on a blog site, and it's very bizarre linguistically imo. Parts of it read like it was created on a pompous sentence generator and then went through an English-Chinese-English online translator.
http://ibrfinc.wordpress.com/

I hear you. From their site:

"The four verticals of Dr. Philip A. Defina’s life have proven to be of great help in making impossible things a cinch and that includes coma recovery!"

Whoa. I used to work in TBI rehab. If this weren't such a serous issue I'd be laughing.
 
This article from Nov. 10 2008 has the different beliefs of different religions about brain death.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_.../2008/11/when_the_deity_knows_youre_dead.html

. According to his parents' strict religious beliefs, this means that Motl is still alive
(your link)

I doubt their religion address artificial life.

The thing is, this is not about removing a machine that is healing Jahi, causing her less pain, or keeping her alive as any means to any positive end...no religion, that I am aware of, addresses this situation.
 
I don't know....I think there are a lot of people, like Dr. Bryne and this other person with their 'neuro machine', the facility who has agreed to take Jahi, the marchers and demonstrators, the mother's lawyer and even the judge who granted the restraining order and then who extended the order are all giving the mother the context to continue on with this.

I agree with you. I believe the context that you mention is tied to whatever faith-based beliefs one adheres to in a world so reliant on technology and science.

What some seem to have missed in reading the legal filings is the Hospital's failure to adhere to the standards in their first evaluation to determine brain death. All hospitals are required, by law, to adhere to standards. That seems to have bothered the Judge enough for him to extend deadlines. It certainly bothers me.

all, JMO
 
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