Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

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Playing Devil's advocate here: Since the child is brain dead, thus legally dead, is there really any fuss the mother can make once they are out of CHO? Their problem is with CHO and its legal representatives, and I do see her side of it too.

Yes, I think there is, because mom does not believe that Jahi is brain dead and has said that she thinks she will improve given enough time. I too appreciate her distrust of CHO but I don't believe she will be satisfied with Jahi's course at the new facility either. She may still blame CHO rather than the new facility, but I think it is optimistic to believe that she will ever have peace or be satisfied as long as she is trying to "keep Jahi alive."
 
The Beating Heart Donors
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may/10-the-beating-heart-donors

Shewmon compiled 150 documented cases of brain-dead patients whose hearts continued to beat, and whose bodies did not disintegrate, past one week’s time. In one remarkable case, the patient survived 20 years after brain death before succumbing to cardiac arrest.

Brain-death advocates have always insisted that anyone who meets their criteria will fall apart quickly, and go quickly to meet the cardiopulmonary criteria. Yet Shewmon presents a litany of life processes that brain-dead patients continue to exhibit:

• Cellular wastes continue to be eliminated, detoxified, and recycled.

• Body temperature is maintained, though at a lower-than-normal temperature and with the help of blankets.

• Wounds heal.

• Infections are fought by the body.

• Infections produce fever.

• Organs and tissues continue to function.

• Brain-dead pregnant women can gestate a fetus.

• Brain-dead children mature sexually and grow proportionately.
 
Yes, I think there is, because mom does not believe that Jahi is brain dead and has said that she thinks she will improve given enough time. I too appreciate her distrust of CHO but I don't believe she will be satisfied with Jahi's course at the new facility either. She may still blame CHO rather than the new facility, but I think it is optimistic to believe that she will ever have peace or be satisfied as long as she is trying to "keep Jahi alive."

So now we are kinda down to arguing about an argument, it seems IMO?
I hope all have peace and joy. I'm out of this, it's gotten absurd. I wanted the best possible outcome, but now, I've settled for just making the mom happy, and that too is contentious.

Night, all.
 
Softail, I apologize if I misread what you said. I'm probably over sensitive at this point after having read so many disrespectful things said about this poor child on other sites.

I just have to wonder what the family's true end game is. I honestly do not think this is a money grab because the family has actually weakened it's case by having her body on mechanical support for this long because the changes/damage to her body in these last weeks will make it harder to determine what caused the initial event that lead to cardiac arrest and to determine fault, negligence, surgical error etc.
Certainly if Jahi does leave CHO, they would most likely be absolved of all responsibility since it would be difficult if not impossible to prove what happened or was done where.

Thank you... but no apology is necessary. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am. I think many of us are overly sensitive on one side or the other. I am on Jahi's side. I think I have been clear about that.

I still think this is all about money for this family. I may be wrong, but at this point this is how I see it. :twocents:
 
I no longer have sympathy for this family, only Jahi.

This is getting really ridiculous.
 
Excerpt from a book in a 2012 Discover article. Harvard study done in 1968. Lots for discussion in this article.

http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may/10-the-beating-heart-donors

• Brain-dead children mature sexually and grow proportionately.

Really? If they have no perfusion in their brain, I don't see how they could produce growth hormone or gonadotropins. How many braindead children have been kept ventilated long enough to observe this happening?
 
Thank you... but no apology is necessary. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am. I think many of us are overly sensitive on one side or the other. I am on Jahi's side. I think I have been clear about that.

I still think this is all about money for this family. I may be wrong, but at this point this is how I see it. :twocents:[/QUOTE]

That's how I see it too.
 
Laura Anthony ‏@LauraAnthony7 1h
Fed appeals crt denied request by #Jahi attorney to insert trach etc. Says request must be made at Sup Crt.

Laura Anthony ‏@LauraAnthony7 17m
State appeals court (not Fed) denied #Jahi request for trach and feeding tube. Said request should be made in AlCo Court that ruled on TRO.
 
Really? If they have no perfusion in their brain, I don't see how they could produce growth hormone or gonadotropins. How many braindead children have been kept ventilated long enough to observe this happening?

The article also claims somebody survived 20 years in a brain dead condition.
 
Thank you... but no apology is necessary. You are as entitled to your opinion as I am. I think many of us are overly sensitive on one side or the other. I am on Jahi's side. I think I have been clear about that.

I still think this is all about money for this family. I may be wrong, but at this point this is how I see it. :twocents:

Please tell me why you think it's about money for the family?
 
What's this about surgery? Does the family want jahi to go through surgery again?
 
"Nutrition is essential to continued physiological processes," said Nutik Zitter. " A body can't go for much more than two to three to four weeks without nutrition. A young person may be on the longer end."

However, the doctor added, brain death would likely lead to total organ failure, regardless of whether nutrition is provided to the girl or not.

"Brain death doesn't usually go on for several weeks," she said. "The brain is responsible for autonomic processes and if the brain is not alive, certain autonomic processes will cease and result in eventual death."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...cmath-hospital-fights-court-remove-brain-dead
 
One cannot determine with certainty what organ donors feel, if anything, while being harvested. The logic of brain death goes like this: If the brain stem is dead, then the higher centers of the brain are also probably dead, and if the whole brain is 
dead, then everything beneath the brain stem is no longer relevant. Since in practice only the brain stem is routinely tested, the vast majority of the body, everything above the brain stem and everything below, no longer counts as human.
http://discovermagazine.com/2012/may/10-the-beating-heart-donors

What?? Many of the higher brain functions are untestable in an unconscious, uncooperative, unresponsive patient, beyond noticing that the patient is unconscious and unresponsive, doesn't talk, doesn't move, doesn't engage in any purposeful behavior. The EEGs and the brain scans and the perfusion tests do take the whole brain into account.
 
Nutik Zitter said she has never heard of a case where a family has fought so many legal battles to keep a brain-dead person on machines in the hope that he or she would recover.

"The reality is doctors and hospitals don't usually do medical procedures on people who are dead," she said. "If we are doing things that we know are not medically appropriate, what does that say? I think it sets a very dangerous precedent.

"I think we have a lot of clear data on brain-death and we know there is a zero percent prognosis (for recovery)."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...cmath-hospital-fights-court-remove-brain-dead
 
Alan Shewman, the MD who did the study is a Professor of Pediatric Neurology at UCLA.

http://www.harvard-la.org/article.html?aid=548

In this lecture, pediatric neurologist Dr. D. Alan Shewmon, one of the most influential critics of “brain death,” will provide an overview of the debate and propose a resolution in the form of a conceptual and terminological paradigm shift.

D. Alan Shewmon, MD received his BA from Harvard in 1971 as a music major. (Originally in the class of 1970, he took a year off to study piano intensively in Europe.) Shifting direction, he went on to medical school at NYU, pediatric residency at Children's Hospital, San Francisco, and neurology residency at Loyola University Medical Center in Chicago. After a fellowship at UCLA in 1980, he has remained on the UCLA Medical School faculty ever since, with joint appointments in the departments of Pediatrics and Neurology. From 1983 to 1999 Dr. Shewmon was director of UCLA’s Pediatric Clinical Neurophysiology Laboratory and played a key role in the emergence of UCLA as one of the preeminent centers in the world for pediatric epilepsy surgery. In 2000 he moved to Olive View-UCLA Medical Center, a university-affiliated county hospital, as director of the Clinical Neurophysiology Laboratory and head of Pediatric Neurology. In 2003 he became Chief of the Neurology Department there and Vice Chair of Neurology at UCLA. In 2011 he became Clinical Professor Emeritus at UCLA while continuing as Chief of Neurology at Olive View.
 
The hospital's attorneys argue that since Jahi has already been declared brain-dead, her constitutional rights cannot be violated by taking her off the ventilator.

"There's no violation of any constitutional or statutory rights raised for the first time in this court because there is no parental, religious or privacy right to reject the scientific definition of death developed by medical professionals and enacted by the California legislature into state law with appropriate safeguards," states the motion.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking...cmath-hospital-fights-court-remove-brain-dead
 
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