Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #2

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Something went very wrong to result in such a catastrophic outcome for a patient in an ICU.

For sure!
My aunt is an RN with 30 years of OR experience. She said that Jahi should have been taken back to OR, stat.
Her guess is that the head nurse didn't get in touch with the key players fast enough. Not saying it was the nurse's fault...most likely speaks of internal disorganization. For example, those contacted for help might not have returned her pages quickly.
Either way, CFO is gonna pay:please:
 
MyBelle,

Could you explain how her financial value increased? To me it decreased since she could no longer generate any revenue.

I believe the harvesting of her organs would have brought increased revenue to the hospital because the surgery would have taken place there. That's just my opinion.
 
For sure!
My aunt is an RN with 30 years of OR experience. She said that Jahi should have been taken back to OR, stat.
Her guess is that the head nurse didn't get in touch with the key players fast enough. Not saying it was the nurse's fault...most likely speaks of internal disorganization. For example, those contacted for help might not have returned her pages quickly.
Either way, CFO is gonna pay:please:

I agree with your aunt. I've held the opinion from the beginning that the catastrophic outcome was a result of miscommunication.
 
I couldn't get the links to work. Furthermore, I don't know the woman's legal name or whether there is more than one person with her name.

Until I see it for myself, I will continue to believe the media articles stating she is a registered nurse. It really doesn't matter other than some are trying to publicly denigrate her.

Seems to me, that talking point was discarded the moment the courts and media was told exactly what procedures were performed and that they were "complicated." The current talking point appears to be to attack the grandmother's professional credentials. Apparently, the Hospital now has the mistaken belief the public is going to believe the grandmother is too "stupid" to be an actual registered nurse and that somehow will make a difference in the public's perception of the hospital's actions toward Jahi. It's a fascinating train wreck to watch from a PR perspective.

Just my very humble opinion.

I am not trying to denigrate anyone. I am not attacking anyone's professional credentials. I actually was trying to answer your question. Like you, I am trying to make sense of all of this. Truthfully, I could not have done my job well without the support of LVNs and CNAs. It has nothing to do with superiority. It has to do with fund of knowledge and being held to standards of care. RNs have more responsibility, however IMO it has to do with experience that is gained through years of doing your job. An LVN with 25 years of experience has seen a whole lot more than an RN with a year's experience iykwim. JMHO
 
I believe the harvesting of her organs would have brought increased revenue to the hospital because the surgery would have taken place there. That's just my opinion.

Hospital can not harvest her organs without consent of the parents. Furthemore the child appears to be obese. Most of her organs are likely unusable, even if parents were to give consent.
So your opinion is not based in reality.
 
I believe the harvesting of her organs would have brought increased revenue to the hospital because the surgery would have taken place there. That's just my opinion.

There is no reimbursement whatsoever to the hospital for any part of organ donation. Nothing. The surgery is not billable.
<modsnip>
 
iirc, the initial determination has to be done by independent physicians. The purpose of it would be to avoid premature brain death declaration in order to facilitate organ procurement, in my opinion.


I have not seen anything regarding that they needed to be independent. All that is stated is that the two exams must be at least 12 hours apart and done by different physicians.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21849823/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/748870

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1511.full.pdf

So I'm not sure how they didn't follow the proper procedures. Doctors both in the hospital AND Independent of the hospital have come to the same conclusion.
 
Hospital can not harvest her organs without consent of the parents. Furthemore the child appears to be obese. Most of her organs are likely unusable, even if parents were to give consent.
So your opinion is not based in reality.

And I doubt the parents would let the hospital harvest her organs anyways.
 
Got it! Very good point.

NO

It is not a good point.

It is completely wrong.

The hospital gets no compensation whatsoever for the organ donation or the procedure to harvest organs.
 
http://work.chron.com/lvn-do-4238.html

Duties

A licensed vocational nurse's duties revolve around basic patient care. LVNs monitor their patients' vital signs and keep their charts up to date. They assist patients in basic hygiene and personal care, including bathing and dressing them and helping them eat if necessary. They can give injections, monitor catheters, change bandages and help bring down fevers with alcohol rubs. In some states, vocational nurses can administer prescription medications or start an IV if needed. They also provide emotional support for their patients, helping them cope with the stresses of the clinical environment. LVNs always work under the supervision of a doctor or registered nurse.

Well, not exactly. In California at least, they can't give injections, cannot administer medications (and IVs and IV fluids are meds, according to the "rules"), bandage changes are not usually assigned to LVNs due to the assessment needed from an RN as to the wound beneath.

Basically, how it breaks down (again, at least in California) is that the LVN can do "anything" that does NOT require any judgment/assessment. Meaning, taking a set of vitals is fine; interpreting them for a medication administration is not (e.g does the patient need to get their "as needed" blood pressure meds NOW because of a high reading? LVNs can't make that call; only an RN can. Same with pain meds - because the nurse needs to assess the levels and quality of pain before and after pain med administration, as well as monitor BP for issues that go along with narcotics).

They most certainly cannot do anything considered "invasive", meaning anything that is 'put into the body' in any respect other than assisting a patient to eat.

And, I stress this point in this situation...they cannot suction.

That being said...

A good LVN is worth their weight in gold. I have had the incredible pleasure of knowing some very accomplished LVNs, and have relied on their support not only as a student nurse, but as a patient myself and as the daughter of a terminal father, and now while my mother is hospitalized.

A good LVN, one with experience and with a decent head on their shoulders, can see things coming and get the RN ahead of issues becoming overwhelming; can be a huge help to the RN they're supporting, by doing a lot of those very important things (like bathing a patient, or interacting with the family, or helping the patient in many ways) that increases a patient's comfort and sense security. And while they're indeed "lower" on the "totem pole", they are needed, necessary, and relied upon in a great many areas.

A poor LVN, however, is a huge burden to the responsible RN.

A note about the "totem pole": it goes like this (education in parenthesis)...

Certified Nurse's Assistent (programs range from 6-10 weeks long)
Licensed Vocational Nurse (6-9 months program)
Registered Nurse (AA) (2-3 yrs prereq's, 2 yrs hospital training/lectures)
Registered Nurse (BS) (same prereq's as AA, 4 yrs total hospital/lectures)
Registered Nurse (Masters/Doctorate) (more than the above, but not sure how much)

And, additionally, it really, really matters which program/hospital one trains at. I trained at Los Angeles County/USC, one of the best schools in the nation. I was given an incredible education, and by the time I had completed the hospital training, I had seen more than most other nurses had in 5 years as a nurse (my first death was a bleed out, 6 weeks into my training. Second death was about 12 weeks into my training, cancer but died of cardiac arrest due to systemic infection. I've known nurses who have been working for 10 years and not experienced either of those types of death...).

In regards to LVN training, most are done at places like "American Career College" or "Kaplan" or "Concorde Career College". These are considered "trade schools", rather than colleges in the traditional sense.

Again, I'm not denigrating LVNs...I've had the pleasure to work with many outstanding ones, all of whom taught me a lot about different things. However, LVNs are in no way comparable to RNs, as RNs must be trained in judgment and assessment and patient planning, as well as many other areas that LVNs are not trained for, including invasive procedures.

I hope this helps a little bit to clarify the differences in the levels of training...there is a huge difference. And the prerequisite training is part of why G'mother may not understand the difference between coma and brain death, as they are not required to take the same courses an RN would...nor be able to assess adequately the body's response, even on such a detailed scale as the Glasgow Coma scale (and would also explain why she doesn't understand the difference between voluntary and involuntary muscle movements, nor how the body can move independently of the brain [the spinal cord stimulus]).

If the Grandmother is an LVN and suctioned...well...to me, that could very easily have been one of the biggest issues in this whole tragic event. I would not wish the guilt on anyone that she must be experiencing.

Best-
Herding Cats
 
Nick Smith &#8207;@nicksmithnews 4m
#NEW family of #Jahi preparing to address media and give update to their progress.
 
I have not seen anything regarding that they needed to be independent. All that is stated is that the two exams must be at least 12 hours apart and done by different physicians.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21849823/

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/748870

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1511.full.pdf

So I'm not sure how they didn't follow the proper procedures. Doctors both in the hospital AND Independent of the hospital have come to the same conclusion.

Exactly. It appears this judge interpreted "independent" as being from a different hospital, but I am far from convinced it has been interpreted that way before. I find it hard to believe hospitals are inviting physicians from outside to confirm brain death.
 
Is there ANY evidence that the hospital was ever planning to 'harvest' Jahi's organs? Was the mother ever in favor of donating Jahi's organs?

I wonder how many people who could have been saved by organ transplants have waited in vain because of the fear of rogue hospitals killing off patients prematurely to harvest organs against the family's will for big bucks?

Fear-mongering has no place in this discussion, IMO.
 
NO

It is not a good point.

It is completely wrong.

The hospital gets no compensation whatsoever for the organ donation or the procedure to harvest organs.

Thanks for the correction Herat!
 
Nick Smith &#8207;@nicksmithnews 4m
#NEW family of #Jahi preparing to address media and give update to their progress.

Don't care about the family update, All they will do is continue to bash the hospital.

JMO
 
Is there ANY evidence that the hospital was ever planning to 'harvest' Jahi's organs? Was the mother ever in favor of donating Jahi's organs?

I wonder how many people who could have been saved by organ transplants have waited in vain because of the fear of rogue hospitals killing off patients prematurely to harvest organs against the family's will for big bucks?

Fear-mongering has no place in this discussion, IMO.

1. Not that I know of.

2. Considering they would have to cut on Jahi in order to get the organs, I'm thinking mom was never in favor of donating her organs.

And I think at this point, it's too late.
 
Is there ANY evidence that the hospital was ever planning to 'harvest' Jahi's organs? Was the mother ever in favor of donating Jahi's organs?

I wonder how many people who could have been saved by organ transplants have waited in vain because of the fear of rogue hospitals killing off patients prematurely to harvest organs against the family's will for big bucks?

Fear-mongering has no place in this discussion, IMO.

1. Hospitals are REQUIRED to ask next of kin about organ donation, if there are no specific contraindications such as death from infection or cancer.

2. There is NO compensation to the hospital for organ donation, or for the procedure. All costs are borne by the tissue harvesting organization.

3. There are NO "big bucks" for organ donation.

4. Neither the hospital or the tissue harvesting company would ever proceed with organ donation if the next of kin did not want it.

5. Perhaps you are in India or someplace else where "rogue hospitals" exist, but it sure doesn't happen in the United States.

Please educate yourself and use facts, not rumor.
 
Organ donation is truly a gift to the living. It is such a selfless last gift. One does not have to be in perfect physical condition to donate. Corneas and skin are just two of the many organs that can be donated. IMO
 
If the Grandmother is an LVN and suctioned...well...to me, that could very easily have been one of the biggest issues in this whole tragic event. I would not wish the guilt on anyone that she must be experiencing.

Best-
Herding Cats

RSBM: The family started suctioning blood themselves; Jahi's grandmother, Sandra Chatman, is a nurse at another hospital.

“A 13-year-old should not have to suction herself,” Sealey said. “She had to use a suction machine to suction her own blood. Her mother and stepfather had to suction out her blood at points. None of them work for this hospital.”

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Oakland-8th-Grader-Brain-Dead-After-236015681.html
 
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