Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #4

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I hope this sad saga won't continue beyond Tuesday, but I suspect that the attorney will ask for another reprieve, and a judge will likely grant it. I doubt that there are arrangements in place for Jahi's transfer to another facility that is willing to care for a brain-dead individual. Thoughts and prayers for Jahi's family and the hospital staff who are caring for this child. :rose:
 
MissJ said:
No one should have been suctioning unsupervised. It could have been the cause of her death. Talking and suctioning could have been the cause of death. JMO
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Suctioning alone with a yankhauer can be a major problem. If the suction pressure is not regulated and the yankhauer not used properly and the lips close around the device it can create enough of a vacuum that your cheeks are sucked in and a snoring sound can be heard. I have had that happen to me and could feel the soft palate at the back of the mouth rapidly flutter. Even without throat surgery this hurts. I have questions about family suctioning this child and what instructions they were given. IMO family and the child should have been prohibited from using the suction equipment except in an extreme emergency where staff was involved in another life or death situation. There is no reason a nurse should not have been at Jahi's bedside for the first 30 minutes on arrival from recovery and in recovery she should have been observed by a nurse continuously. Call me a hard a&& RN, that's fine with me but I have my standards and will not lower them for anyone!
 
Harmony2 said:
Just to keep the facts straight, do you have a link because the following articles says otherwise?



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jahi-mcmaths-family-faces-monday-life-support-deadline/



http://www.ibtimes.com/jahi-mcmath-...rl-ventilation-another-week-family-fights-her



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/30/jahi-mcmath-removed-from-life-support-monday_n_4518574.html



http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/1...hospital-ordered-to-keep-her-on-life-support/
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I am only on page 14, so don't know if this has been addressed...if so, please ignore.

She IS a LVN, not an RN:

LVN license verification: ETA, can't get link to imbed: here is the addy to verify LVN - http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/wllqryna$lcev2.startup?p_qte_code=VN&p_qte_pgm_code=9110

Checked RN license verification: https://www.breeze.ca.gov/datamart/listCADCA.do?anchor=39afa16.0
 
Isabelle said:
Suctioning alone with a yankhauer can be a major problem. If the suction pressure is not regulated and the yankhauer not used properly and the lips close around the device it can create enough of a vacuum that your cheers are sucked in and a snoring sound can be heard. I have had that happen to me and could feel the soft palate at the back of the mouth rapidly flutter. Even without throat surgery this hurts. I have questions about family suctioning this child and what instructions they were given. IMO family and the child should have been prohibited from using the suction equipment except in an extreme emergency where staff was involved in another life or death situation. There is no reason a nurse should not have been at Jahi's bedside for the first 30 minutes on arrival from recovery and in recovery she should have been observed by a nurse continuously. Call me a hard a&& RN, that's fine with me but I have my standards and will not lower them for anyone!
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A nurse probably was there the first 30 minutes and they are just lying as usual.

They have an agenda
 
Isabelle said:
Suctioning alone with a yankhauer can be a major problem. If the suction pressure is not regulated and the yankhauer not used properly and the lips close around the device it can create enough of a vacuum that your cheers are sucked in and a snoring sound can be heard. I have had that happen to me and could feel the soft palate at the back of the mouth rapidly flutter. Even without throat surgery this hurts. I have questions about family suctioning this child and what instructions they were given. IMO family and the child should have been prohibited from using the suction equipment except in an extreme emergency where staff was involved in another life or death situation. There is no reason a nurse should not have been at Jahi's bedside for the first 30 minutes on arrival from recovery and in recovery she should have been observed by a nurse continuously. Call me a hard a&& RN, that's fine with me but I have my standards and will not lower them for anyone!
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BBM
IIRC the family said Jahi had been in the ICU about 30 minutes before they were allowed in to be with her. I would guess it's possible a nurse was with her during that time.
 
Isabelle said:
Suctioning alone with a yankhauer can be a major problem. If the suction pressure is not regulated and the yankhauer not used properly and the lips close around the device it can create enough of a vacuum that your cheeks are sucked in and a snoring sound can be heard. I have had that happen to me and could feel the soft palate at the back of the mouth rapidly flutter. Even without throat surgery this hurts. I have questions about family suctioning this child and what instructions they were given. IMO family and the child should have been prohibited from using the suction equipment except in an extreme emergency where staff was involved in another life or death situation. There is no reason a nurse should not have been at Jahi's bedside for the first 30 minutes on arrival from recovery and in recovery she should have been observed by a nurse continuously. Call me a hard a&& RN, that's fine with me but I have my standards and will not lower them for anyone!
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Do we know that she wasn't observed by a nurse in recovery and that there wasn't anyone with her on arrival from recovery? Didn't the family state that when Jahi was transferred to ICU it took some time before the family were allowed in her room?
 
Steft50 said:
BBM
IIRC the family said Jahi had been in the ICU about 30 minutes before they were allowed in to be with her. I would guess it's possible a nurse was with her during that time.
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Wonder how much she bled in recovery room or when the massive bleeding began in the PICU. As an RN I would love to go thru the documentation. Hopefully all details are present as surely they are on computer charting.
 
iluvmua said:
They more than likely were prohibited from using the equipment and they are just saying this to blame the hospital.

A nurse probably was there the first 30 minutes and they are just lying as usual.

They have an agenda
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Obviously, I haven't seen the PICU at Children's. But my cousin was a nurse in an ICU that was all open like that one. It was kind of a semi-circular "theater" with the nurses station at the center with a direct line of vision to each bed and a very short distance to each patient. Not to mention the monitors both at the nurse's station and visible/audible from the bedsides. There's no way in that type of an environment a nurse could not have been present within feet. Also, she had just been transferred. It's completely unbelievable to me that a nurse wasn't directly involved in the transfer. jmo
 
How long after surgery did the massive bleeding occur?

I thought it was more like 24+ hours, not 30 minutes, as she was awake, talking, and asking for more than ice chips.
 
Donjeta said:
Do we know that she wasn't observed by a nurse in recovery and that there wasn't anyone with her on arrival from recovery? Didn't the family state that when Jahi was transferred to ICU it took some time before the family were allowed in her room?
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I believe they could not see her for 30 minutes.

I have a really really hard time believing that no hospital staff was in Jahi's room at that time.
 
Donjeta said:
Do we know that she wasn't observed by a nurse in recovery and that there wasn't anyone with her on arrival from recovery? Didn't the family state that when Jahi was transferred to ICU it took some time before the family were allowed in her room?
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I wouldn't doubt there was a nurse in recovery. In most recovery rooms a nurse could have more than one patient and could be absent due to transporting another patient out. In that case other nurses would keep watch for the absent nurse. Number of nurses also varied depending on time of day and number of cases.
 
Donjeta said:
Do we know that she wasn't observed by a nurse in recovery and that there wasn't anyone with her on arrival from recovery? Didn't the family state that when Jahi was transferred to ICU it took some time before the family were allowed in her room?
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Once again, whatever the family says may not be reflected in the medical record.

I had read upthread, many pages ago, that she was to go directly to PICU instead of recovery.

There is a lot of activity in the handoff between anesthesia and recovery or PICU that has to go on that the family is not invited to participate in. Nursing has a great dealt to do in this time specifically for the patient and the post-op orders. It's important post-surgical treatment and it's just not appropriate for family members to be there until she is settled and the nursing staff has time to bring family in and interact with them. Post-op is about the patient, not the family.
 
Isabelle said:
Wonder how much she bled in recovery room or when the massive bleeding began in the PICU. As an RN I would love to go thru the documentation. Hopefully all details are present as surely they are on computer charting.
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I think many are wanting to know what is in the records that the family has so far refused to let the hospital release. To many (myself included) this refusal on the families part has led people to wonder if they are the ones hiding something, especially with the differing stories and differing times on what happened when.
 
Herat said:
Once again, whatever the family says may not be reflected in the medical record.

I had read upthread, many pages ago, that she was to go directly to PICU instead of recovery.

There is a lot of activity in the handoff between anesthesia and recovery or PICU that has to go on that the family is not invited to participate in. Nursing has a great dealt to do in this time specifically for the patient and the post-op orders. It's important post-surgical treatment and it's just not appropriate for family members to be there until she is settled and the nursing staff has time to bring family in and interact with them. Post-op is about the patient, not the family.
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That's what I remember reading as well. That Jahi was going to PICU.
 
Mother is not quite sure of the time line but she certainly wasn't alone while her IV was being fixed.

http://www.contracostatimes.com/new...describes-jahi-mcmaths-post-surgical-bleeding
In the document, the family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, says "originally the surgery was uneventful and (Jahi) awoke from sedation in the recovery room speaking with her mother ... (and) asking for a popsicle."

The girl was brought to the intensive care unit, where her mother was told that caregivers would fix her IV, the document states. After 25-45 minutes, her mother found her sitting up in bed and bleeding from the mouth.
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Day Dreamer said:
I didn't mean mystery as in what happened medically. I totally understand that the hemorrhaging led to her heart stopping which led to lack of oxygen to the brain causing brain death.

I was referring to what was linked to in the last thread that the family may have not followed post-op procedures. I'd like to know WHY she hemorrhaged. I'd like to know exactly what the hospital staff did when it became clear there was a serious complication. I'd like to know what the hospital meant when they said a lot of untruths have been told. I'd like to know how much of what WE know from MSM is actually true and not blown out of proportion. Because of HIPAA laws we may never know.

If they truly want their side out they can get it out with violating HIPAA laws ... all they have to do is detail it in the court documents which become public.

Jahi's family has truly tarnished the hospital's reputation. Was it warranted because it was true? I have no idea; but, I do know the hospital lawyers/spokespersons really offended me and also tarnished their own reputations with their blatant lack of empathy.

Yes, this little girl probably is dead; however, it isn't necessary to refuse to address the little girl by her name. They have addressed her publicly as "the body", "the deceased", "the corpse", etc; and, they certainly have never missed an opportunity to address this little girl by those terms. If they have said these things publicly and to the media I can only imagine what they are saying to the family in private meetings. It's totally uncalled for.

I also think it was totally uncalled for to turn her over to the coroner and issue a death certificate while her heart is still beating. That should have only been done once her heart has stopped. That's just my opinion anyway.

Had the hospital taken a different approach maybe this wouldn't have gotten so unnecessarily ugly. People do things out of grief that they would never ordinarily do. We should take that into consideration. We are still talking about a 13 year old little girl here that did absolutely nothing wrong.
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Thank you for your post. I know it sounds cold to a lot of people but I understand why they are using these terms.

The public has been mislead, are uniformed of her condition or they have beliefs that procedures and other medical care that is provided to the living should be given to Jahi because her heart is still beating due to support from the ventilator and meds.

In SM, it has been encouraged for people to call the hospital and administrator in protest. Phone numbers and emails for contacts at the hospital have been posted on SM. They have rallied outside of the hospital. The hospital has been slammed with phone calls, letters and emails from those that think the hospital is horrendous, even though this is hospital policy and law across the country. The hospitals daily activities to care for other patients has been compromised by this campaign, from not only the outside but also the inside of the hospital. When large groups protest, there is always security issues that have to be considered. There are those that may take interest in this that may be dangerous to the hospital, it's patients, their families and employees.

People do not understand the laws and Jahi's condition and there are those that feel she will rise from the dead.

I completely understand why they are referring to her as deceased to the public. The message has to be clear, blunt and honest. By all legal and medical terms, Jahi is deceased and it the policy of hospitals, for declaration of death to be made after the second confirmation of brain death has been made. The coroner then comes into the picture at that time.
 
BeginnersLuck said:
I completely understand why they are referring to her as deceased to the public. The message has to be clear, blunt and honest. By all legal and medical terms, Jahi is deceased and it the policy of hospitals, for declaration of death to be made after the second confirmation of brain death has been made. The coroner then comes into the picture at that time.
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The family has to understand that the warm body in front of them is just a shell and no longer her.

It has be to be blunt and honest. She is dead. What is left are her earthly remains.

Having to sign the coroner release will be the reality test. I fully expect Dolan will come up with some reason why the mother can't do this, and will force CHO into removing the ventilator. This family has accepted no responsibility from Dec 12 onward and, despite the legal agreement, won't do so now. Expect lots of noise, public appeal, hustle happening out the Dolan/ McMath camp on Monday. They want CHO to be the bad guy and causing "mental duress and irreparable harm" to the family by shutting off the vent.

Guarantee you this.
 
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