Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #5

[momrids6]

Dr. Paul A. Byrne is a Board Certified Neonatologist and Pediatrician. He is the Founder of the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit at SSM Cardinal Glennon Children's Medical Center in St. Louis, MO.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne

 

[Disguiseduser0308]

I would never want to be in her moms position ,but I can empathize with her not wanting to let her childs heart stop beating . No amount of science takes the human aspect out of that.

RSBM -- :tears: I can't tell you how many times I've thought the same exact thing. I truly feel for the family of Jahi. I cannot imagine having to watch one of my own children go through something similar.

 

[katydid23]

OR near Arizona- wasn't there talk of Arizona too?

Yes, I was thinking the same thing. A definite possibility.

 

[SwampMama]

November 3 Jahi's uncle tweeted that he had signed with a casting agency. I think that clearly demonstrates that he wants fame, loves being in the limelight and doesn't mind lying to do so. (by lying I mean the way he has declared that Jahi is doing things that clearly are beyond her abilities at this point such as moving or smiling, or accusing the hospital of things. No doubt he sees this publicity as his ticket to getting his name out there.

What next? A book, a movie about Jahi (starring him or directed by him). He seems to be a budding Kanye West with his need to promote himself and congratulate himself on how awesome he thinks he is. :sick:

 

[MsSeal]

Just watched the Dr. Drew segment and am appalled by the misinformation the talking heads are spewing. They are unaware of the lies being told by the family and are blaming the doctors for being insensitive. How do we let the Dr. Drew producers know there is another aspect to the story?

Did you read the facebook comments linked to his show? They are ready to hang him out to dry and are very angry.

An RN talking about how brain dead patients don't have any reflexes.

And of course stories of their brain dead relatives who came to life and were sitting up and talking again.

There is misinformation everywhere.

I had no idea this subject was so polarizing to the public. It is almost like personal beliefs and experiences trump medical science.

 

[NevadaMom]

I don't think there is a core to my argument ,honestly. I just wondered why so many people were so passionate that this girl be taken off life support. I didn't however think of the thousand other cases like this one. I was just considering Jahi and her case, and reflecting over my friends sisters case (they ended life support after 3 weeks ,tried twice to do it before they could commit )

I would never want to be in her moms position ,but I can empathize with her not wanting to let her childs heart stop beating . No amount of science takes the human aspect out of that.

I'm not sure there have ever been "thousands" of cases like this. Generally speaking it seems that when medical professionals declare someone as deceased due to brain death the denial phase for the family does not last weeks. Nor is it trotted out for all the news sources willing to giving them the time, or taken to court to force the hospitals hand in a matter than has a clear legal definition.

Also this is not "life support" as Jahi is deceased and legally has been since the second doctor ran the battery of tests on December 12th. That's what part of the frustration here is - people are using terms that just do not apply - and that misinformation that then gets splashed all over every news outlet making it sound like she is alive. It only serves to perpetuate the false hope the mother has about her daughter recovering.

Understanding the science aspect of it might help with the realization that the physical heart does not make the person. While it ceasing to beat will be emotional, the part of the body that made Jahi who she was has been gone for nearly a month now. Like I said up post, the medical details that have come out about the post-mortem degradation process have upset me a great deal because I could never imagine letting it carry on this far for either one of my daughters.

Slightly OT: I think I might take a page from someone else who posted the other day and talk to my kids about what they would want in regards to organ donation. They're a bit young, but we're honest about death so they understand that it knows no bounds of age.

:moo:, IMO, IMV ...

 

[fruity]

Dr. Paul A. Byrne is a Board Certified Neonatologist and Pediatrician. He is the Founder of the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit at SSM Cardinal Glennon Children's Medical Center in St. Louis, MO.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/byrne

And Dolan said that Jahi is at a Catholic facility.

 

[otto]

There have been quite a few of brain dead patients kept on ventillators already.
I am not sure why this particular case would be of any interest as a research paper unless something unusual happens.

I've only read the one paper submitted by a Japanese team requesting that a law be implemented regarding the definition of brain death. It sounded like the law is ambiguous in Japan. The description of the deterioration of the body made it clear that the bodies of brain dead people are not something that should be artificially sustained amongst the living. If they want to be sustained, let them build tombs.

That is, artificially sustaining dead bodies above ground should not be allowed. Keeping dead people lying around with people that are living is just not a good idea. It's wrong. It is a known fact that preserving the body, or artificially prolonging the function of certain organs after brain death, is a fruitless, foolhardy venture. It should be ended by law under the category of regulations regarding definition and interpretation of deceased people and what should immediately be done with those deceased people.

Nancy Grace should be ashamed of herself if she was stomping all over the place shouting that the hospital should be screwed over. Let them build tombs and care for their dead underground, but not amongst the living! Ms Grace should build a tomb and hire staff if she wants her dead body preserved after she is brain dead.

The Bible is a good bed time story with a moral of the story like Aesop's Fables. There's nothing in the Bible, or in any religious book, about keeping the dead amongst the living.

Dr Drew asked if Jesus had a ventilator just before he rose from the dead. I wrote that here a couple of days ago ... funny to hear him say it.

 

[fruity]

I can't find a link. Did Dolan say that Jahi will one day walk into CHO and hand them her death certificate??

 

[otto]

I don't think there is a core to my argument ,honestly. I just wondered why so many people were so passionate that this girl be taken off life support. I didn't however think of the thousand other cases like this one. I was just considering Jahi and her case, and reflecting over my friends sisters case (they ended life support after 3 weeks ,tried twice to do it before they could commit )

I would never want to be in her moms position ,but I can empathize with her not wanting to let her childs heart stop beating . No amount of science takes the human aspect out of that.

I don't have the Japanese Study on Brain Death link anymore, but if I had to guess, I think it was posted around December 25th. Other than this one study, I haven't seen any other links to studies of brain dead people. People that are in a coma or a permanent vegetative state have been mentioned, but the significant difference between brain dead and vegetative state is brain stem activity. This child has had no brain stem activity for a month. Vegetative and coma patients have brain stem activity, but it is not normal activity. Vegetative and coma patients can have some recovery. No one comes back from brain dead, and there has never been a miracle other than in the bed time story about Jesus. I think the moral of that story is that by confessing sins, it's possible to be reborn ... I don't think it has anything to do with a body coming back to life or having a conversation with the person that used to be dead.

 

[otto]

I can't find a link. Did Dolan say that Jahi will one day walk into CHO and hand them her death certificate??

That is priceless!

Maybe there's a reason he had Dr Bryne on speed dial.

 

[otto]

Did you read the facebook comments linked to his show? They are ready to hang him out to dry and are very angry.

An RN talking about how brain dead patients don't have any reflexes.

And of course stories of their brain dead relatives who came to life and were sitting up and talking again.

There is misinformation everywhere.

I had no idea this subject was so polarizing to the public. It is almost like personal beliefs and experiences trump medical science.

And I thought voodoo went out with Gilligan's Island. Who could have known that of the approximately 330,000,000 people in the United States, there would be such a strong belief that dead people are not dead, science is mumbo jumbo, and if the machine presents an illusion, it's okay to have a delusion.

 

[fruity]

That is priceless!

Maybe there's a reason he had Dr Bryne on speed dial.

I'm not sure if it is true. I read it on a blog. If it is true, he is reprehensible for giving this family false hope.

I really do think that he is behind a lot of the family's actions. Their descriptions, demeanour and statements were all so different before Dolan was invoked IMO.

 

[wendiesan]

The hospital's position was that since she is dead, it's not ethical to insert a tube into her. Sounds like the body deteriorated to the point it can not be done.

I think you're right, jjenny. I think Herat explained that the decomposition of Jahi's organs had already begun, reinforcing the hospital's choice to maintain the illusion of life for Jahi by using an IVdrip. Herat's post follows.
*************************

Originally Posted by Herat
Not only are her bowels not functioning (as in lack of bowel sounds) the lining of her bowel is beginning to slough off. A spontaneous bowel perforation, peritonitis, and sepsis are not far off.

Any feeding tube would probably perforate and only hasten the slow death of her body by sepsis.
***************************
This is so sad. The story of Jahi and Nailah has mythic elements. An angry, grieving mother carries the body of her beloved daughter from the place where her child was mortally wounded to her home. Although death has taken her child's spirit, the girl's body seems to still be alive. All the while praying for her daughter's miraculous reawakening, the mother exacts revenge on those she blames for her child's condition. Refusing to see that her child's body will inevitably die, the mother accepts the questionable advice of sycophants and counsellors seeking to enhance their own fortunes through the girl's misadventure. However, as she recalls the events that have brought death to her family, the mother must deal with the turning point of the tragedy. Her daughter may not have been the victim of professional incompetence or fate. Rather, the girl's death may have been triggered by the well-intentioned actions of the woman's own mother or husband, or, even herself. If only this was a plot synopsis of an ancient Greek Tragedy rather than the reality of this 21st Century family.

JMO interpretation of events.

 

[otto]

November 3 Jahi's uncle tweeted that he had signed with a casting agency. I think that clearly demonstrates that he wants fame, loves being in the limelight and doesn't mind lying to do so. (by lying I mean the way he has declared that Jahi is doing things that clearly are beyond her abilities at this point such as moving or smiling, or accusing the hospital of things. No doubt he sees this publicity as his ticket to getting his name out there.

What next? A book, a movie about Jahi (starring him or directed by him). He seems to be a budding Kanye West with his need to promote himself and congratulate himself on how awesome he thinks he is. :sick:

Something is clearly off when the Uncle, who was in Mexico (Cabo) at the time of the surgery, said that the only thing that matters is the money. He stated that $250,000 is "chump change" and the grand prize is $30,000,000. He's going for the grand prize, his twitter account says something about not enough top ups in the money department. He's probably kicking himself for not being in ICU when a visitor decided to suction blood in a patient. Given that she was obese, it's surprising that even though she had an IV drip, the family wanted to feed her. I can easily imagine how all hell broke loose after the family started messing with the suction tube and yelling for a doctor in ICU.

Clearly they were messing with the suction tube immediately after surgery and shortly after being allowed into the intensive care unit (30-40 minutes after surgery). Presumably, during those 30-40 minutes, the patient was stable and bleeding was normal. According to family declarations, no nurse was present when the family was messing with a suction tube. Was the family told to mess with the suction tubes, or did they decide to do this on their own? The bleeding got worse. Bleeding increased until the family was yelling for a surgeon.

There is no story in that, except that when a family has a child in ICU, they must follow orders or leave. Interference with a patient in ICU can increase the likelihood of death. That's a fact.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

I couldn't watch I had to turn it. My feelings exactly.

I don't get HLN, but I found it on Youtube. I couldn't watch it for more than a minute, if that.

I wrote much more than that, but (again) self-snipped in case I crossed a line. Let's just say that, IMO, NG has a tendency to melodramatically and blatantly describe things ... inaccurately ... on a regular basis and leave it at that.

 

[Sedonia Sunset]

Have you been reading Nancy Grace's tweets or listened to her comments.

So she blames the hospital and the doctors. Okay....called it a simple tonsillectomy. It does not look like she did any reseach at all.

Sure she did. Facts are pesky and irrelevant.

 

[otto]

Is the transcriptionist for Nancy Grace picking her own hours now? The transcripts used to be up almost before the sun went down, and now they're back dated to Jan 3.

 

[otto]

This is so sad. The story of Jahi and Nailah has mythic elements. An angry, grieving mother carries the body of her beloved daughter from the place where her child was mortally wounded to her home. Although death has taken her child's spirit, the girl's body seems to still be alive. All the while praying for her daughter's miraculous reawakening, the mother exacts revenge on those she blames for her child's condition. Refusing to see that her child's body will inevitably die, the mother accepts the questionable advice of sycophants and counsellors seeking to enhance their own fortunes through the girl's misadventure. However, as she recalls the events that have brought death to her family, the mother must deal with the turning point of the tragedy. Her daughter may not have been the victim of professional incompetence or fate. Rather, the girl's death may have been triggered by the well-intentioned actions of the woman's own mother or husband, or, even herself. If only this was a plot synopsis of an ancient Greek Tragedy rather than the reality of this 21st Century family.

Is there a myth with that story? If not, you should start writing, if you are not already an author.

This Guardian ad litum designation of the mother bothers me. A natural mother would never have a need for that designation because a natural mother has more rights than a guardian. The only guardianship dispute of a natural mother would be in divorce, and that never requires a Guardian ad litum designation. Why does the mother have legal guardian designation?

What law and legal relationship is in place for the natural mother to be a guardian for all intents and purposes?

 

[wendiesan]

Did you read the facebook comments linked to his show? They are ready to hang him out to dry and are very angry.

An RN talking about how brain dead patients don't have any reflexes.

And of course stories of their brain dead relatives who came to life and were sitting up and talking again.

There is misinformation everywhere.

I had no idea this subject was so polarizing to the public. It is almost like personal beliefs and experiences trump medical science.

No, I didn't read the comments there.
I was reading some at another site though that were really frightening--attacks on the family, the attorney, the hospital staff.
I was more concerned that it seemed from what I saw on Dr. Drew that the hospital was being thrown under the bus by some of the talking heads who didn't know the difference between brain death and coma. And that the family's version of events was accepted at face value.
Maybe this case has been so polarizing just because beliefs, IMO, do on some level trump logic. People make decisions based not on logic or science but on their long held beliefs no matter what evidence is put in front of them.
I mean, look at the feuds that last for decades because of mistaken beliefs that no amount of logic can shift.
JMO, but the language that has been used by the family's atty has been chosen to appeal to beliefs rather than logic, and that may have caused reactions that seem out of proportion.

I should remember that while I've been reading the posts of very intelligent and articulate people who have explained complicated medical and ethical issues with care and with passion. The talking heads probably don't read information and debate of that calibre.