Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[popsicle]

"@sevnthstar: @nicksmithnews why not post a current photo of Jahi, one month post declaration of death? #accuratereporting"#jahimcmath

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
@HekateHades @sevnthstar reason given to me "safety." You may be surprised to learn, there are those that wish misfortune to #Jahi & @cbdlaw

 

[vlpate]

Forgive me if this has been addressed in an earlier thread, but someone directed my attention to this article this morning, about a brain-dead person who miraculously 'came back to life' 3 days after being declared brain-dead following a heart attack.

http://chinadailymail.com/2013/04/0...d-brain-dead-awakes-after-calls-to-pull-plug/

The difference I see in this situation is, that while she did have at least 2 neurologists agree on brain stem death, she also had a heart valve tear that miraculously healed. Her recovery happened within 3 days of the medical event, too.

I do believe God can do miracles, and because I do not believe the Bible to be the 'fairytale' so many others call it, I do believe that God can resurrect the dead (eg. Lazarus, and most importantly, Christ). The only question I'd have about comparing this story to Jahi's is that

1) there seems to be no medical info published 'backing' up this story (no scans, etc.) that would give it added substance, and

2) this woman was 'raised back to life' within 3 days. Since brain autolysis occurs 3-5 days after true brain death, this would seem to fit.

Any comments, especially from the medical professionals in here? (Heading out for a short bit, but will return asap to check on your thoughts).

I am not a medical professional, but I have been known to be skeptical

No name of the hospital or Doctors anywhere in the article or subsequent blogs/articles I researched. Sounds like an agenda piece.

The miracle survivor only wanted to speak through email? She was blessed by a miracle from God and wants to email about it?

Not one single major news outlet reported this story, nor can it be found (according to sources in other articles), in medical journals. IMO, propaganda for groups against euthanasia.

I believe in miracles too, but I also believe when it is your time to go...when He has decided to turn out the lights ... His will is done. Let go and let God.

 

[IrishMom]

That is a beautiful story, Beginner's Luck.

I can't count the number of times I have arrived to OB units to do a labor epidural, and had a (scared) angry family member yell "Where have you been??!! What took you so long?? My wife/ daughter/ GF is in LABOR, and is in EXTREME PAIN!"

Almost every time that has happened (even if it has only been a few minutes since OB called for the epidural), I have been in ER doing a code or emergency intubation, or finishing an emergency case in the OR, on my way up to OB. (All of the small hospitals I work in have only one CRNA on call.)

But I always take a deep breath, and try to remember that for this spouse or family, it is just as much of a crisis to see their loved one in pain with labor, as it is heartbreaking for the family of the ER or OR patient. A lot of times, it seems like no matter where we are in the hospital, or what we're doing, lots of people think we should be somewhere ELSE!

I actually teach strategies to handle this OB scenario to students in one of my courses.

KZ, did you write the guest article on Trials and Tribulations? If so, I just wanted to tell you it was wonderfully written and answered a LOT of questions I had. :seeya:

 

[Leilei]

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 5m
@sevnthstar I have continued contact w/family of #JahiMcMath & @cbdlaw. As soon as they give pic to share, I will. #accuratereporting

I'm not sure I'm ready to see it, personally

 

[ArianeEmory]

"@sevnthstar: @nicksmithnews why not post a current photo of Jahi, one month post declaration of death? #accuratereporting"#jahimcmath

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
@HekateHades @sevnthstar reason given to me "safety." You may be surprised to learn, there are those that wish misfortune to #Jahi & @cbdlaw

I don't understand how a picture would impact her safety.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

"@sevnthstar: @nicksmithnews why not post a current photo of Jahi, one month post declaration of death? #accuratereporting"#jahimcmath

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
@HekateHades @sevnthstar reason given to me "safety." You may be surprised to learn, there are those that wish misfortune to #Jahi & @cbdlaw

Just to be clear, personally I don't want to see pictures posted of Jahi for a variety of reasons. One being, I think it would be disrespectful to her.

I fail to see how a picture of a person in a bed would "identify" where she is located though, unless the facility name or address of her location is embroidered on the pillow.

I think he could have come up with a better response to the question than that.

 

[ellemo]

Very nice tribute to the doctors and nurses at the children's Hospital:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I am not a medical professional, but I have been known to be skeptical

No name of the hospital or Doctors anywhere in the article or subsequent blogs/articles I researched. Sounds like an agenda piece.

The miracle survivor only wanted to speak through email? She was blessed by a miracle from God and wants to email about it?

Not one single major news outlet reported this story, nor can it be found (according to sources in other articles), in medical journals. IMO, propaganda for groups against euthanasia.

I believe in miracles too, but I also believe when it is your time to go...when He has decided to turn out the lights ... His will is done. Let go and let God.

I have not been able to trace any of these many stories I have seen back to a source with documentation. I would need to see the medical records saying they were actually pronounced brain dead and if by chance they were, I would want to see the tests that were performed to determine that.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

"@sevnthstar: @nicksmithnews why not post a current photo of Jahi, one month post declaration of death? #accuratereporting"#jahimcmath

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
@HekateHades @sevnthstar reason given to me "safety." You may be surprised to learn, there are those that wish misfortune to #Jahi & @cbdlaw

Think it's more about cbdlaw than Jahi when it comes to safety. That photo her sister posted was enough to give me the shivers. Dread to think what a photo would show today.

 

[Donjeta]

I am not a medical professional, but I have been known to be skeptical

No name of the hospital or Doctors anywhere in the article or subsequent blogs/articles I researched. Sounds like an agenda piece.

The miracle survivor only wanted to speak through email? She was blessed by a miracle from God and wants to email about it?

Not one single major news outlet reported this story, nor can it be found (according to sources in other articles), in medical journals. IMO, propaganda for groups against euthanasia.

I believe in miracles too, but I also believe when it is your time to go...when He has decided to turn out the lights ... His will is done. Let go and let God.

This article says it was Canossa Hospital.
http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/my-family-wouldn’t-let-me-die/page/0/2
http://chinadailymail.com/2013/04/0...d-brain-dead-awakes-after-calls-to-pull-plug/

There is something a little off about the reporting as chinadailymail says

It was a huge shock for her husband. One day, everything had been normal for the couple, both in their 40s, and their children then aged 12, and seven. The next day, she was in a coma and it looked very bad.

The incident reportedly happened April 20th, 2009.

The other article is dated March 2013 so a little less than four years after the incident. One of their kids has aged four years which sounds about right but another has aged five years.

The couple have a daughter, 16, and a son, 12.

http://yourhealth.asiaone.com/content/my-family-wouldn’t-let-me-die/page/0/2

Says Dr Chin: "The physician said there was no hope of recovery. She added there were no cases of patients recovering from brain stem death.

"That evening, Suzanne looked dead. There was also a smell of death over her."

I don't know about this either... It seems like it could be a little embellished. I don't think a freshly braindead person in life support would yet smell of death.

Dr Chin, 54, says: "And as a medical doctor, I am unable to fault their diagnosis of brain stem death based on these signs. An EEG (electroencephalogram) done showed the activity pattern of massive brain damage."

Was there an activity pattern on her EEG? An activity pattern of massive brain damage does not sound exactly synonymous with the electrocerebral silence associated with brain death imo.

Chief Justice Sundaresh Menon recalled her remarkable story in a speech earlier this month on euthanasia and assisted dying. When The Sunday Times contacted Ms Chin for her story, she agreed only to answer questions via e-mail.

Her case came into the spotlight after Chief Justice (CJ) Sundaresh Menon used her extraordinary story in his address, titled Euthanasia: A matter of life or death?, to the Singapore Medical Association at their annual lecture.

Science, said CJ Menon, did not have all the answers, and that it was for Parliament, and not the courts, to decide if euthanasia or assisted suicide should be allowed in Singapore.

Since then, netizens have cottoned on to her story, drawing attention to testimonies by the Chin siblings on a website, Healing Rooms Singapore, which charts stories of personal recovery and faith.

The knowledge that the doctors were so close to pulling the plug hurts her, says Ms Chin in an e-mail interview with The New Paper on Sunday.

It seems none of the reporters actually met her so is this a real person?

"They never gave up on me in what seemed like a hopeless situation. They stood by me and fought for my life, literally. "Without their faith, I wouldn't even be here today telling this story."

How does she know that? If they're so sure that she was brain dead and it was a miracle from God who woke her up from the brink of death, surely He could have done it even if the husband agreed to take her off life support. Surely God's miracles are not so weak that they depend on whether there is a man made machine or not.

 

[Wolf Dreamer]

Very nice tribute to the doctors and nurses at the children's Hospital:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/today...agedy-in-the-jahi-mcmath-story_b_4568882.html

Just a shame the person writing it has referred to a "routine tonsillectomy" :banghead:

 

[ferretnurse]

"@sevnthstar: @nicksmithnews why not post a current photo of Jahi, one month post declaration of death? #accuratereporting"#jahimcmath

Nick Smith ‏@nicksmithnews 3m
@HekateHades @sevnthstar reason given to me "safety." You may be surprised to learn, there are those that wish misfortune to #Jahi & @cbdlaw

I admit to being curious to see a pic since she's doing "better". :banghead: I'm also wondering how anyone could "harm" her, since she's sadly, already gone. The excuses are obviously bs. How much longer do you think they can keep up this charade?

 

[dh109977]

I admit to being curious to see a pic since she's doing "better". :banghead: I'm also wondering how anyone could "harm" her, since she's sadly, already gone. The excuses are obviously bs. How much longer do you think they can keep up this charade?

I am curious but I honestly don't think I can look. I will have to wait for it to be posted and read the comments before I look at it.

 

[BuzzieCat]

Item #37 will be completed eventually. The OCME/Coroner has final say over this factor, families DO NOT choose whether a decedent gets an autopsy. We do listen & evaluate but the Coroner/ME makes the final choice UNLESS a court order demands a post. IMHO, if YOU want your family member to be officially examined make with passion & FACTS your case to the authorities ASAP! (editorial comment, not OCME policy!)

What concerns me, though, is that supposedly families don't have to give consent for a brain dead loved one to be taken off the ventilator, yet in this case that's exactly what happened - the hospital was forced to accede to the family's understandable but unreasonable wishes, even in the face of 6 doctors confirming Jahi's brain death. So what's to stop the family from making another stop in court to prevent the coroner from doing an autopsy?

I guess what I'm really wondering is - even though the family is not supposed to have a choice about the autopsy, they are in control of the body, not the coroner's office. Can the family end up preventing the autopsy, even if they are not supposed to be able to, and yet still sue CHO for wrongful death, malpractice, etc.? That would leave CHO with a big handicap in the ability to defend themselves. They'd have their documentation but no way to show what actually lead to Jahi's death and their culpability (or not) in it.

 

[21merc7]

Just jumping in here.

Is there any update on the girl's medical condition?

The legal issue is in the way and the Supreme Court will not change stance.

Most likely she will pass.

I understand the family wanting it to be in a natural time, but if on life support it will not help, it will delay.

I understand the family unwilling to accept.

I understand the phases of accepting watching a dear one die slowly.

She will not wake up and be okay.

They have it harder with the guilt of the suctions they did and whatever else.

The stages of accepting death start with denial, anger, grief, and blaming. The lawyer is not a good one, this is not his million dollar case. Like a used car salesman, or a psychic that calls you to tell you that your lost child is in the ditch in front of your house, you did not call that psychic. Too much against it already, but he is in the way of the family coming to terms. (Legal point of view.)

Their religion may be an issue, or it just may be that it is their fun loving child, and a combo all of their life and it's issues will fall if she goes.

I cannot imagine being in their shoes. I could not accept it. Especially if given false hope by free lawyers and hospitals.

I know when the brain is gone the body slowly goes. It gets ugly. I worked in a nursing home in the '80's. I've seen it. It is slow and awful, but this is a child. Even in the nursing home no one is ever prepared or willing to accept.

The media needs to end on it, until she goes. It may not be long.

Miracles with brain dead are not what we are talking about here.

We also need medical records, which WILL become public now that there is so much attention to what should have been a private choice and matter.

 

[newmrsc]

What concerns me, though, is that supposedly families don't have to give consent for a brain dead loved one to be taken off the ventilator, yet in this case that's exactly what happened - the hospital was forced to accede to the family's understandable but unreasonable wishes, even in the face of 6 doctors confirming Jahi's brain death. So what's to stop the family from making another stop in court to prevent the coroner from doing an autopsy?

I guess what I'm really wondering is - even though the family is not supposed to have a choice about the autopsy, they are in control of the body, not the coroner's office. Can the family end up preventing the autopsy, even if they are not supposed to be able to, and yet still sue CHO for wrongful death, malpractice, etc.? That would leave CHO with a big handicap in the ability to defend themselves. They'd have their documentation but no way to show what actually lead to Jahi's death and their culpability (or not) in it.

ITA that the precedent already set - letting the family fight taking her off the ventilator - is a little scary and a step in the wrong direction, but I DON'T think that they would be at all successful in fighting an autopsy if the coroner finds a need for it. While I would totally believe they would try, I just can't imagine any court agreeing to that. If people could block autopsies, murder would get a lot easier to get away with! Just claim religious grounds against an autopsy and we can never prove cause of death? I couldn't believe a court let this circus play out, but I REALLY can't believe they would strip the coroner of authority like that. JMO.

 

[popsicle]

I am curious but I honestly don't think I can look. I will have to wait for it to be posted and read the comments before I look at it.

I don't think we need to worry. imo there is no way they are going to release a recent photo of Jahi.

 

[Donjeta]

I hope they won't. There's no way ever to get those photos off the internet and you just know that someone will do something horrible, disrespectful and macabre with them.

 

[Frigga]

I don't understand how a picture would impact her safety.

-It wouldn't.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

A bit more medical information here. NB: it's a blog site so take it or leave it.

http://citizenswatch88.blogspot.com...howComment=1365917826194#c2399882102700788500

Donjeta, once again, you come through. Thanks so much for this link.

I am not one to believe that a miracle could not happen with Jahi; my position on her situation has only come about after reading a lot lately about what brain death means, and how definitive it generally is in the science/medical field--along with studying various claims of 'recovery' history. My own religious faith contributes to my views on life support after a brain death diagnosis (like anyone else's would). Personally, I believe God can and has (though rarely) raised people from the dead, though (also JMO) I would not ask that He do that for a loved one who's passed, as I can't perceive how that would be a good thing in God's eyes for that loved one--to come back here after entering Paradise. I know and believe without a doubt that God sometimes does miraculous healing or even just the prolonging of life for people who've been given no hope, medically, but I also believe those divine events happen not because we've demanded or claimed them from God, or as a result of our praying 'hard' enough. (IMO, divine grace is all about Him--not my 'holiness' or spiritual efforts, really.)

All this to say, (and I hope this isn't too rambling)...I think the reason I've been convinced Jahi has passed on is that even with those biblically recorded events of Lazarus & Christ, the 'raising' from death happened within 3 days. It's interesting to me that Chin's story also had her recovery happening after 3 days. This academic overview on brain death states that autolysis begins 3-5 days after real brain death:

https://www.inkling.com/read/millers-anesthesia-7th/chapter-98/chapter-98-introduction

My sort of faith is the kind that combines what I know and believe scientifically with my religious beliefs--they are not 2 separate spheres of belief. So I guess I'm saying that, for me, the fact that doctors have noted decomposition already with Jahi leads me to believe that God has indeed taken her home. "To be absent with the body is to be present with the Lord"--and if the process of physical breakdown is evident in 2 separate photos of her hands, evident in Dr. Flori's report, and if it's long after that 3-5 day period of time where autolysis would also begin in true brain death, IMO Jahi is no longer 'with' her body. At least that's where I stand now on things; it's always subject to change with added input.

Anyway, thanks for posting that link with more of the details given by her physician-brother, Dojeta. It was added info needed to deepen and clarify my own views on this. :seeya: