Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[21merc7]

Why would there be dead pictures?

I hope someone in the family realizes that is not necessary for the world. No one will look for her like they do for Elvis.

This will not be a horrible serial killer staged body on the side of the road case.

This is a misunderstanding that should not be publicized.

But, I forget, some people like to be paid to go on bad t.v. shows too.

This is a beautiful child and she should be celebrated by her family when she goes, not onlookers to see a photo of a deceased child. There is a limit to the absurdities in media, even if it is chosen by loved ones for money. This is where no media should go. There is no purpose.

 

[Donjeta]

Closer to home, and even more dramatic, some among you may have heard the story of Suzanne Chin, a Singaporean lawyer who was working in Hong Kong at the time (and who is the sister of your colleague Dr Alan Chin who also has the details of her medical history and who kindly reviewed and confirmed the accuracy of what I am about to state). Suzanne today is alive and thankfully in perfect health but on 20 April 2009, she was warded in the intensive care unit of a hospital in Hong Kong after she suffered a cardiac arrest. When she was brought to the hospital on that Monday morning at 8.38am, she was unconscious with unrecordable blood pressure. Resuscitation efforts followed and these lasted for two hours. She was intubated and administered dopamine and adrenaline intravenously. Although she was eventually resuscitated, her prognosis was poor. Her doctors diagnosed an acute aortic valve prolapse leading to cardiac arrest. They also informed the family that she had brain stem death. Suzanne's husband was advised to consider authorising the doctors to switch off her ventilator since for all practical purposes, she was dead and there was no hope of recovery.

The family requested a second opinion from a neurologist who examined her. He observed that her pupils were fixed and dilated. There was no gag and cough reflex; no pain reflex, no vestibulo-ocular reflexes; no response to deep pressure applied to various parts of her body. She was flaccid and a-reflexic. The neurologist also diagnosed brain stem death. On both 20 and 21 April 2009, Suzanne met three of the four criteria associated with total brain death: She was in an unresponsive coma; she was unable to breathe spontaneously; and there was an absence of any brain stem reflexes. As to the fourth criterion, the absence of electrical activity of the brain, when she was tested for this for the first time towards the end of the second day, 21 April 2009, some activity compatible with massive gross encephalopathy, signifying severe brain damage, was detected. Twenty-four hours later, she started to respond to stimuli. Eight days after her initial admission to hospital, she was discharged. Today, she is back in Singapore leading a normal life and showing no signs of any damage at all.

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/euthanasia-matter-life-or-death-20130324

The Chief Justice's speech. According to this she had some EEG activity.
So, not a case of a totally brain dead person recovering. JMO.

 

[seattlechiquita]

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/euthanasia-matter-life-or-death-20130324

The Chief Justice's speech. According to this she had some EEG activity.
So, not a case of a totally brain dead person recovering. JMO.

I seriously find it bizarre that after all this time folks still confuse coma and vegetative state with brain death. It is not that complicated ARGHH

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I am not a medical professional, but I have been known to be skeptical

No name of the hospital or Doctors anywhere in the article or subsequent blogs/articles I researched. Sounds like an agenda piece.

The miracle survivor only wanted to speak through email? She was blessed by a miracle from God and wants to email about it?

Not one single major news outlet reported this story, nor can it be found (according to sources in other articles), in medical journals. IMO, propaganda for groups against euthanasia.

I believe in miracles too, but I also believe when it is your time to go...when He has decided to turn out the lights ... His will is done. Let go and let God.

You and me both. And it does true faith and religious belief no credit if things are embellished or put forth as divine intervention if, in fact, they are less than portrayed. In other words, I don't have to see a miracle at every turn in order to believe them possible. JMO, but I get mildly irritated by religious 'fluffy' pieces that are big on feelings and emotion but small on spiritual depth and factual support (if it's about an event such as this). You don't have to be a noted academian to appreciate peer-reviewed stuff that those of faith who are also academics can write or sink their teeth into.

 

[rosetattoo]

I've been looking to try to figure out if there have been any cases of people who appeared verifiably brain dead, but who recovered. The case of Zack Dunlap seems to be the best example. It has been reported in mainstream media that two scans showed no blood flow to his brain, yet he recovered.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23768436/...n-recovering-after-atv-accident/#.UtCCzZp8Mmw

http://www.today.com/id/23775873/ns...-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/#.UtCDwJLTlUE

 

[MaybeNotToday]

I'm sorry that your experience was so bad with this person.



I can say that throughout my life I have had "bad" experiences in a personal and professional setting. I prefer to look at it from a perspective that the relationships weren't a good match. Therefore, I discontinued the association with that individual and moved forward. I didn't allow my feelings to cross over to every person of that profession or ethnicity or gender etc..etc...



I don't allow an encounter with one employee at a facility or business to form my opinion about that business as a whole. I have been known to call businesses/organizations with my concerns of employees though. I do that because I don't want others to have bad experiences and if it were my business I would want to know about a employee.



I would encourage anyone that has had any kind of bad experience, to talk to someone else that might be able to mend that wound.



On another note:



I would hate to see people stop receiving medical care just because they had one bad experience or read about a sensationalized story in the news. I think the reporting of this case has created some exaggerated fears.

I had drafted a response that was supposed to say what you said. After fumbling around and deleting 3 times, I threw my hands up. Thank you for writing so eloquently what I could not!

 

[Wolfie]

I'm still so horrified at what they are telling her siblings and classmates. (Somebody posted this link earlier in the thread http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html ) It's just cruel, they are kids and you're telling them that if they pray harder their friend will come back? How are they going to feel when she doesn't?

 

[21merc7]

http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/euthanasia-matter-life-or-death-20130324

The Chief Justice's speech. According to this she had some EEG activity.
So, not a case of a totally brain dead person recovering. JMO.

I love you Donjeta, you know that.

This is from Singapore though.

Honestly, right now no U.S. Court is touching this. They all know to wait for the end.

If it gets into any law suits and goes as far as the U.S. Supreme Court, not local ones for that state, which would be after death, I will be surprised.

If for some reason the child's body exists for years on machines, that opinion will change.

I guess we all know doctors are not always right. Go to 6 in a year and get 6 differing opinions, when you are alive and capable.

I guess we all wonder about having Living Wills and if we could go on longer if no one pulled the plug. I understand that. My personal choice is no plug, just pull it, if I go, then it is good. A child cannot make that choice. Parents certainly should not have to make that choice, or accept that could even be a choice, but it happens. That is why they sell you baby death insurance as soon as you get home with your happy, future looking life, of a beautiful healthy baby.

If I knew more about medicine I would not see this so cut and dry. If family members didn't go younger than I would like, I wouldn't see it so cut and dry. If brain death wasn't involved, I would have hope. I am not one of medical knowledge. I just see the entire media around it as bringing up every individuals thoughts about life for themselves or loved ones. Not really for the child that we know most likely is about to rattle and go.

 

[Minette]

Taken from the awesome Donjeta's chock full o'links post a couple of pages back:

The academy's chief operating officer Lisa Blair said she has tried to honor Jahi's family's wishes by telling students that their classmate may still be alive, even though doctors say she is legally and clinically dead.

The students responded with an outpouring of faith.

“Most kids are Christian here,” Blair said, “and they believe that if you continue praying, there’s always a possibility. The students understand the debate. They’re just choosing spirituality over science.”

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Jahi-McMath-Brain-Death-Tonsillectomy-EC-Reems-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

Really? SERIOUSLY? The school has joined in with this mother's denial & delusions to falsely give hope to all of Jahi's little school friends? And planning an in-school event for them to wear Team Jahi t-shirts? Oh, sure, parents were allowed to have their child opt out, but then you get to be that ONE kid in a sea of purple t-shirts who wants sweet Jahi to be dead. These kids aren't getting grief counseling, they are getting enabling counseling.

What happens when she doesn't come back to school and even her mother has to admit that brain dead is dead? Do the kids get to feel guilty for 'failing' Jahi, just like CHO, the courts and everyone else?? Do they get taught that doctors and hospitals aren't to be trusted and everyone is out to get them??

Maybe it's just me, but leading these children to think Jahi is ever going to be coming back to school if they just pray hard enough isn't an act of courage, it's an act of cowardice and it's cruel to them.

/rant off

 

[AzPistonsGirl]

I sometimes wish I had the faith (in general) that some of you have spoken of here. It is heartening to read your words.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Herat]

Taken from the awesome Donjeta's chock full o'links post a couple of pages back:



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Jahi-McMath-Brain-Death-Tonsillectomy-EC-Reems-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

Really? SERIOUSLY? The school has joined in with this mother's denial & delusions to falsely give hope to all of Jahi's little school friends? And planning an in-school event for them to wear Team Jahi t-shirts? Oh, sure, parents were allowed to have their child opt out, but then you get to be that ONE kid in a sea of purple t-shirts who wants sweet Jahi to be dead. These kids aren't getting grief counseling, they are getting enabling counseling.

What happens when she doesn't come back to school and even her mother has to admit that brain dead is dead? Do the kids get to feel guilty for 'failing' Jahi, just like CHO, the courts and everyone else?? Do they get taught that doctors and hospitals aren't to be trusted and everyone is out to get them??

Maybe it's just me, but leading these children to think Jahi is ever going to be coming back to school if they just pray hard enough isn't an act of courage, it's an act of cowardice and it's cruel to them.

/rant off

What a way to set kids up: "I didn't pray hard enough and Jahi died"

I would have though a kinder discussion of the man's transitory life on this earth and life everafter in heaven would have been a better lesson.

 

[Leilei]

Taken from the awesome Donjeta's chock full o'links post a couple of pages back:



http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Jahi-McMath-Brain-Death-Tonsillectomy-EC-Reems-Academy-Friends-Believe-Alive-239629891.html

Really? SERIOUSLY? The school has joined in with this mother's denial & delusions to falsely give hope to all of Jahi's little school friends? And planning an in-school event for them to wear Team Jahi t-shirts? Oh, sure, parents were allowed to have their child opt out, but then you get to be that ONE kid in a sea of purple t-shirts who wants sweet Jahi to be dead. These kids aren't getting grief counseling, they are getting enabling counseling.

What happens when she doesn't come back to school and even her mother has to admit that brain dead is dead? Do the kids get to feel guilty for 'failing' Jahi, just like CHO, the courts and everyone else?? Do they get taught that doctors and hospitals aren't to be trusted and everyone is out to get them??

Maybe it's just me, but leading these children to think Jahi is ever going to be coming back to school if they just pray hard enough isn't an act of courage, it's an act of cowardice and it's cruel to them.

/rant off

Completely agree. Especially about the "opting out" part. I'm just sitting here, shaking my head...

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

With the caveat that this occurred outside of the US so I'm not completely clear on their medical system, policies, protocols, and laws:
-It doesn't appear that she was ever truly declared brain dead. At least in the US absence of brain stem reflexes is only part of the criteria. It doesn't appear that the doctors actually went through the full criteria and made the determination. Instead they explained to the family (including a physician brother of some sort) that the prognosis was grim and recommended that they withdraw support. I get the impression that their feeling was that brain death was the likely outcome but that the ultimate outcome hadn't been reached.
-The patient in question began showing signs of improvement within less than 48 hours after her arrest.


There is the other issue (which unfortunately I think will be worse after this case) that there is a lot of misunderstanding of what brain death is. Brain death=death. Brain death is not the same as a coma, or as a persistent vegetative state (i.e.. Terry Schiavo etc). In many cases there are patients who are profoundly neurologically devastated but have some residual brain function. Their prognosis may be very grim but the important distinction is that they are not dead.

(BBM)

Thank you! I noticed the same discrepancy at the outset of the article (which is what I noted to the person on Twitter who'd shared it with me)--the going back and forth between the words "coma" and "brain death"--and the idea that prognosis seemed grim--well, that seems like a bit of an understatement if you're talking about true brain death. There IS no prognosis for someone who is dead.

Unfortunately, if journalists don't become better educated on the difference in terminology when writing these pieces, this sort of confusion of terms is destined to continue.

 

[seattlechiquita]

Taken from the awesome Donjeta's chock full o'links post a couple of pages back:

Maybe it's just me, but leading these children to think Jahi is ever going to be coming back to school if they just pray hard enough isn't an act of courage, it's an act of cowardice and it's cruel to them.

/rant off

Respectfully snipped by yours truly. WHAT THE F? Really? If I was a parent at that school, they would not hear the end of it. This is collective insanity.

 

[Herat]

Completely agree. Especially about the "opting out" part. I'm just sitting here, shaking my head...

Something about this seems like Uncle O's idea.......

 

[Wolfie]

I would have though a kinder discussion of the man's transitory life on this earth and life everafter in heaven would have been a better lesson.

And grief counselors.

These poor kids. So awful. I thought it was bad enough when I thought about the siblings being pulled into this circus. But now her classmates, and siblings classmates.

I hope that whatever district oversees this charter school lets them know that they can't bring religion into school, or they will loose their charter.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I've been looking to try to figure out if there have been any cases of people who appeared verifiably brain dead, but who recovered. The case of Zack Dunlap seems to be the best example. It has been reported in mainstream media that two scans showed no blood flow to his brain, yet he recovered.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/23768436/...n-recovering-after-atv-accident/#.UtCCzZp8Mmw

http://www.today.com/id/23775873/ns...-dead-man-takes-miraculous-turn/#.UtCDwJLTlUE

Here is a neurologists opinion on what happened with this young man.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brain-dead/

 

[MsSeal]

This is an article from Atul Guwande, MD. For those of you who are not familiar with him he is a surgeon who has written books about medical practice and performance of hospitals.

There is a little more info about the apnea test which I did not know and explains it more in layman's terms. My apologies if this has already been posted.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/health/the-science-behind-brain-death.html?hp&_r=1

The last step is called an apnea test. To perform this, doctors allow the carbon dioxide level to slowly increase in the patient’s blood; once the concentration reaches a certain threshold, anyone with a partly functional brain stem will wheeze for breath. This is the true litmus test for brain death, and it can take about 20 minutes, during which doctors must not leave the room even for a moment, said Dr. Panayiotis N. Varelas, director of the neuroscience intensive care unit at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit.

“If the patient tries to breathe, you abort the test immediately and say the patient is not brain-dead,” Dr. Varelas said.

 

[Donjeta]

I wonder if that is an acceptable excuse when one of the children fails their science test miserably. "Oh, I understand the debate, I just chose spirituality over science."

 

[MsSeal]

After reading the comment that NW feels the hospital would have taken better care of her if she was an organ donor I wonder what she is referring to? Not putting in the feeding tube?