Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[threecrazykids]

That looks like an in-patient hospice of some sort. I can't imagine jahi would be taken there....I'm not sure hospice would allow feeding tubes, etc...I don't think they do unless they are in place before being admitted. But in this case, WHO knows!

So maybe she's at a private residence? I would LIKE to assume that SOMEONE other than her family/attorney know where she is being cared for. Maybe not?! So the location wasn't disclosed on the court order, but does that necessarily mean that the courts don't know where she is, it's just not on the public documents?

Please tell me that SOMEONE in some sort of official capacity knows where she's been taken and is checking in to make sure she's still alive.

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

More nonsensical quoting:

An East Coast Catholic group is using the "tragic situation" of Jahi McMath to give the organization a chance to say that faith and science are not at odds here, and in this case, the 13-year-old Oakland girl is dead.

"This is a very tragic case but in the face of death, the Church proclaims that Jesus Christ has won the victory over death," the National Catholic Bioethics Center said Tuesday on its website. "And [Jahi's mother] has the obligation to comfort those who mourn with the sure and certain hope of the resurrection of the dead. We offer our prayers for all who have been so profoundly affected by this tragic event."

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...-Jahi-McMath-With-Jesus-Christ-239314591.html

The bit about Jahi's mother didn't really make sense to me.
http://www.ncbcenter.org/resources/jahi-mcmath-and-catholic-teaching-on-the-determination-of-death
The original article here doesn't say anything about Jahi's mother, they use "she" to refer to the Catholic church (as in the bride of Christ) imo.

This quote, if instead of [Jahi's mother] you substitute back the original word "she" (for the Church), is the Catholic position--at least that I've read elsewhere. I took from this that the organization was saying Jahi's mother should concentrate on comforting those who mourn (Jahi's death) with the tenet of the Church that says our comfort is in the hope of our future resurrection (the resurrection of all the saints when Christ returns for them, as discussed in the comfort-in-mourning passage in 2 Corinthians 5). I think that's why the church does consider Jahi dead, here--so there is no conflict between science and the Catholic church in this case, as he asserts.

Let me know if I've been interpreting this official statement wrong, though. (Not that I'm Catholic, but maybe I'm reading something into it that isn't there?)

 

[threecrazykids]

Great video for us who are "medical terminology challenged".

[video=youtube;Ffqz-vKZO5Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffqz-vKZO5Q[/video]

 

[dh109977]

So maybe she's at a private residence? I would LIKE to assume that SOMEONE other than her family/attorney know where she is being cared for. Maybe not?! So the location wasn't disclosed on the court order, but does that necessarily mean that the courts don't know where she is, it's just not on the public documents?

Please tell me that SOMEONE in some sort of official capacity knows where she's been taken and is checking in to make sure she's still alive.

I really really believed she was in a private residence til they announced the feeding tube. I don't know how that would have happened. But I would hope when they released the body to her mother there was more conditons then just returning the body to the coroner. I hope to god there has to be some kind of communication with the courts and accurate updates.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I really really believed she was in a private residence til they announced the feeding tube. I don't know how that would have happened. But I would hope when they released the body to her mother there was more conditons then just returning the body to the coroner. I hope to god there has to be some kind of communication with the courts and accurate updates.

If I remember correctly, the mother is solely responsible for care if the body after release,which makes me think they are not in contact with the court. I could very well be wrong.

 

[mck16]

Jahi is not my child, nor anyone else's on this forum. What is going to be will be and quite franlkly I am tired of the debate. It matters not what we discuss or what we think. Let the family be and let what happens to her be. I feel she should have been let go long ago, but it really isn't my business and it isn't hurting me whatever the outcome.

I feel sorry for them all, but Jahi is with her father in Heaven and nothing will change that. If He decides to send her back that would be wonderful and I believe he could. I don't expect it to happen, but what a testimony if He did.

Children's Hospital has enough attorneys to handle what ever they need and they can figure it out. Let's just pray for the family to get through this awful tradgedy they are dealing with. jmo

 

[dh109977]

If I remember correctly, the mother is solely responsible for care if the body after release,which makes me think they are not in contact with the court. I could very well be wrong.

That scares me. like..... alot.

 

[ArianeEmory]

So maybe she's at a private residence? I would LIKE to assume that SOMEONE other than her family/attorney know where she is being cared for. Maybe not?! So the location wasn't disclosed on the court order, but does that necessarily mean that the courts don't know where she is, it's just not on the public documents?

Please tell me that SOMEONE in some sort of official capacity knows where she's been taken and is checking in to make sure she's still alive.

Maybe I missed earlier conversation on this, but it's something I've been wondering about: she's considered legally (by the government) to be dead. I would assume that means she is no longer subject to things like child protective services or investigations of abuse. (And I'm ok with that: I believe that if she is brain dead, then there is no brain to feel pain or suffering, so the idea of abuse is moot.)

But what legal footing does that leave the courts with? And what responsibility do the parents have in terms of observing the law? If I follow this chain logically, it seems to me the only thing it can fall under now is laws dealing with the disposition of human remains.

I'd love to hear some legal folks weigh in on whether my logic is sound.

 

[21merc7]

-----------
Movement caused by reflex /gases..could be maybe. Maybe not reflex. I read the report from Heidi again. (forgot last name). She said in report there is malodorous coming with secretions.my words not hers, this means odors I would think from inside.

Movement.

When I worked in the nursing home, and, being young and never actually there when someone died, the first death I witnessed, I did not believe the patient was dead.

There were twitches. Of course urine and bowel release. THEN, there was breath, loud exhale. Very loud. It was all signs of life to me, but it was not life. I'll stop there.

The very bad odor with secretions is the back up that the body, even if alive, but lying still, backs up. Many enemas given to bedridden patients. However, if it is worse than bad adult poo smell (and especially since no spicy or smelly foods are involved), then her body is going slowly from the inside out, which we already know.

 

[dh109977]

Maybe I missed earlier conversation on this, but it's something I've been wondering about: she's considered legally (by the government) to be dead. I would assume that means she is no longer subject to things like child protective services or investigations of abuse. (And I'm ok with that: I believe that if she is brain dead, then there is no brain to feel pain or suffering, so the idea of abuse is moot.)

But what legal footing does that leave the courts with? And what responsibility do the parents have in terms of observing the law? If I follow this chain logically, it seems to me the only thing it can fall under now is laws dealing with the disposition of human remains.

I'd love to hear some legal folks weigh in on whether my logic is sound.

At this point I know she is not able to feel pain so she can't be subject to abuse. But I am worried with how far they will take this. When her heart gives out will they turn her over to the coroner? Will they keep this going. Right now my main concern is the siblings. If she is in a residence are they there or in another residence. This case has so many twists and turns that the unknown makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[ArianeEmory]

At this point I know she is not able to feel pain so she can't be subject to abuse. But I am worried with how far they will take this. When her heart gives out will they turn her over to the coroner? Will they keep this going. Right now my main concern is the siblings. If she is in a residence are they there or in another residence. This case has so many twists and turns that the unknown makes me sick to my stomach.

I agree it is very concerning and disturbing. And it IS affecting other people, such as those kids we read about earlier. The family and their lawyer are keeping it in the news every day.

 

[dh109977]

Just had a thought. If the courts find out she is in a private residence Could they send child protective services to check on the siblings. Would their well being be a concern. I am not saying the family would ever intentionally harm these children but the situation can harm them mentally.

 

[21merc7]

At this point I know she is not able to feel pain so she can't be subject to abuse. But I am worried with how far they will take this. When her heart gives out will they turn her over to the coroner? Will they keep this going. Right now my main concern is the siblings. If she is in a residence are they there or in another residence. This case has so many twists and turns that the unknown makes me sick to my stomach.

Please don't feel ill.

This is a family in denial, and getting Country Wide attention for it, most likely World Wide since it is on the internet.

The only thing I can feel is sorrow for them.

The media should not be involved, and will turn blame eventually. They already carry enough guilt, but making it public will make it worse.

Media and the lawyer and whomever else is supporting the idea that this child will be okay one day are enabling. It only continues false hope, and it all really should be extremely private and family only. They cannot come to terms with the inevitable as long as any one person gives a glimmer of hope. I can understand that. I would not give up either until it became impossible not to if it were my child.

Giving false hope, conversation, donations, long term ideas of failed law suits, only enables them to continue in denial.

If they were alone with her, and watched her until the end, they would be better.

I have no problems with them taking her to another place, be it home, or hospice, or hospital, if they can afford it, and if they are doing so to have some days of peace with her before the end.

I just think that may not be what is happening with all of the hype.

 

[dh109977]

Please don't feel ill.

This is a family in denial, and getting Country Wide attention for it, most likely World Wide since it is on the internet.

The only thing I can feel is sorrow for them.

The media should not be involved, and will turn blame eventually. They already carry enough guilt, but making it public will make it worse.

Media and the lawyer and whomever else is supporting the idea that this child will be okay one day are enabling. It only continues false hope, and it all really should be extremely private and family only. They cannot come to terms with the inevitable as long as any one person gives a glimmer of hope. I can understand that. I would not give up either until it became impossible not to if it were my child.

Giving false hope, conversation, donations, long term ideas of failed law suits, only enables them to continue in denial.

If they were alone with her, and watched her until the end, they would be better.

I have no problems with them taking her to another place, be it home, or hospice, or hospital, if they can afford it, and if they are doing so to have some days of peace with her before the end.

I just think that may not be what is happening with all of the hype.

I am a horrible person. At first I felt so horrible I have a 12 almost 13 year old and I couldn't imagine the pain of losing my child. I will still feel terrible when this is over. But right now I am just so fustrated. In the last few weeks I have learned that Jahi wet the bed, I have heard over and over that she is overweight. I have heard so much more but forgive me I have had a long day. Anyway my daughter won't even discuss the impending time of the month without blushing and telling me she doesn't want to talk about it. SHe would lose her mind if she wet the bed and I ever told anyone. Also she is a tad bit on the chubby side. She is ultra sensitive about that. So I feel this needs to end. Jahi should be the beautiful happy child that we see in the pics. Not the overweight bedwetter that is being kept alive by the machines. Does that make sense. I have this anger that has surpassed any compassion I had for this family.

 

[Trino]

So maybe she's at a private residence? I would LIKE to assume that SOMEONE other than her family/attorney know where she is being cared for. Maybe not?! So the location wasn't disclosed on the court order, but does that necessarily mean that the courts don't know where she is, it's just not on the public documents?

Please tell me that SOMEONE in some sort of official capacity knows where she's been taken and is checking in to make sure she's still alive.

It seems to me that any journalist worth his/her salt would be able to easily find out. The truth IMO is the public is not to be informed of where she is. Why this is so I don't know, except perhaps for the family's safety since there are some who might wish to harm the family. I'm sure there must be security where the girl is located.

 

[21merc7]

I am a horrible person. At first I felt so horrible I have a 12 almost 13 year old and I couldn't imagine the pain of losing my child. I will still feel terrible when this is over. But right now I am just so fustrated. In the last few weeks I have learned that Jahi wet the bed, I have heard over and over that she is overweight. I have heard so much more but forgive me I have had a long day. Anyway my daughter won't even discuss the impending time of the month without blushing and telling me she doesn't want to talk about it. SHe would lose her mind if she wet the bed and I ever told anyone. Also she is a tad bit on the chubby side. She is ultra sensitive about that. So I feel this needs to end. Jahi should be the beautiful happy child that we see in the pics. Not the overweight bedwetter that is being kept alive by the machines. Does that make sense. I have this anger that has surpassed any compassion I had for this family.

Please do not ask for forgiveness. I understand completely! Thank you for sharing about your daughter. My entire family is overweight, my sister got the worst of it, when she passed she was 569 lbs. She did not eat a lot, she had something undiagnosed, imo. So, I understand what you are saying. She always was extremely self conscious and I was aware and sensitive to that.

I know this matter should stop, just for Jahi's soul to move ahead. We can't do that. Her soul may already have moved ahead, we don't know. She is a beautiful girl OUTSIDE and in. At least the world knows that much.

The machines keeping her alive is because she is loved so much. It is not easy to let go, especially when it is a child. That is why I mentioned working in the nursing home, it is not easy to let go when someone is very old and lived a long a full life, it is hard when they are young too.

I hope you know your daughter is okay. My sister lived a full life, but went too young at 48. She went through many surgeries and came out just fine, she just liked alcohol, smoking, and not going to doctors to check on her heart. If she went to doctors she did not listen, and she chose to continue knowing it was not going to be okay to drink all day, every day, not eat, and smoke. She still made it through surgeries for hysterectomy, leg, arm, and face, over the years. Face was bad car crash.

ETA: Bedwetting shouldn't have had anything to do with Jahi's weight. She was not huge. That may have been emotional, and I'll leave speculation at that.

 

[Shecky]

It seems to me that any journalist worth his/her salt would be able to easily find out. The truth IMO is the public is not to be informed of where she is. Why this is so I don't know, except perhaps for the family's safety since there are some who might wish to harm the family. I'm sure there must be security where the girl is located.

I'm honestly surprised that TMZ hasn't jumped on board with all of this, I'd give them no time at all to track info down if they were. Look at their tactics when pursuing any kind of celebrity news.

 

[Minette]

Jahi is not my child, nor anyone else's on this forum. What is going to be will be and quite franlkly I am tired of the debate. It matters not what we discuss or what we think. Let the family be and let what happens to her be. I feel she should have been let go long ago, but it really isn't my business and it isn't hurting me whatever the outcome.

I feel sorry for them all, but Jahi is with her father in Heaven and nothing will change that. If He decides to send her back that would be wonderful and I believe he could. I don't expect it to happen, but what a testimony if He did.

Children's Hospital has enough attorneys to handle what ever they need and they can figure it out. Let's just pray for the family to get through this awful tradgedy they are dealing with. jmo

mck16, I do understand how you feel about this, I really do. I just find that this case has legal/ethical/societal repercussions that go beyond just Jahi's family and their dispute with CHO and as such it is all of our business. Ordinarily I would say no, this is between the family and their deceased child, they deserve their privacy, but they through their attorney, the charitable and activist organizations who have piggy-backed their causes onto Jahi's case they have actively courted publicity, raised overarching legal issues involving definitions of brain death, right to privacy of legally deceased persons, etc., involved hundreds of school children in their cause.... I would say they have made it everyone's business.

Because if you are talking about legal & ethical standards for defining brain death and 'treating' brain dead patients it IS our business. It isn't just about their daughter any longer due to how they have invoked the questions in their legal pleadings. Now it affects all of us, potentially.

I wouldn't have handled it that way, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle.

 

[21merc7]

mck16, I do understand how you feel about this, I really do. I just find that this case has legal/ethical/societal repercussions that go beyond just Jahi's family and their dispute with CHO and as such it is all of our business. Ordinarily I would say no, this is between the family and their deceased child, they deserve their privacy, but they through their attorney, the charitable and activist organizations who have piggy-backed their causes onto Jahi's case they have actively courted publicity, raised overarching legal issues involving definitions of brain death, right to privacy of legally deceased persons, etc., involved hundreds of school children in their cause.... I would say they have made it everyone's business.

Because if you are talking about legal & ethical standards for defining brain death and 'treating' brain dead patients it IS our business. It isn't just about their daughter any longer due to how they have invoked the questions in their legal pleadings. Now it affects all of us, potentially.

I wouldn't have handled it that way, but you can't put the genie back into the bottle.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to convey, but trying to be all politically correct in a society that can't even say hello and thank you anymore.

 

[Herat]

I am wondering if maybe a place like this is where they've taken her - **please note, there is NO indication that this is where she really is**

http://www.georgemark.org/index.php

.

It's licensing does fit with her status. It does bring up the question of where the tracheostomy and feeding tube were placed, because it would be outside of the license of this facility to do those procedures.

Also they are staffed by "skilled nurses". Sounds like an RN in charge with LVN care. Quite a bit different from the care level she was receiving at CHO.

http://law.onecle.com/california/welfare/14132.25.html