Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[shana]

I've been on NPO status many times over my adult life. I did not question it, just followed instructions. It wasn't until one of my dogs had eye surgery under a general anesthetic that I had to face the consequences. It was horribly stressful and expensive to have her watched overnight in an emergency vet hospital. Fortunately, she lived!

I did NOT feed her anything, but someone else in my midst did not get the message. :-/

That will never happen again here, and hasn't.

I wonder if the NPO order were better-explained (aspiration pneumonia), perhaps ppl would GET it. Simply explained.

~jmo~

 

[meanmaryjean]

K_Z speaks the truth - you cannot IMAGINE the damage that can be done by this.

We occasionally have to place a breathing tube in a child who has recently eaten for emergency, life-saving purposes. It's a hot mess, and the resulting pneumonia is B.A.D.

Highly NOT recommended!

 

[BeginnersLuck]

The McMaths/attorney brought up religion as a reason for them wanting to keep Jahi on the ventilator. IMO, it was just thrown out there because of the religious exception in law.

The only religion that I am aware of that doesn't believe in brain death is Jewish orthodox and apparently more modern orthodox are accepting it. I found this ethical debate discussion. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1117998/#B2-1

Even though the religion doesn't accept the brain death diagnosis for death, I don't believe that they go to extremes by providing medications, so death is usually within a few days.

If that is the case, then what they are doing with Jahi's body, IMO is different from what any religion would do as they don't typically provide measures to try and sustain the heart for as long as possible.

If anyone has any other knowledge to the contrary please let me know.

This explains why I am seeing in some articles and comments that the heart doesn't typically continue to function for more than a few days after brain death. True ??? if no medications are given??

I wonder why Byrne thinks that a brain dead body should be prolonged by all available means indefinitely. That seems so twisted.

 

[shana]

iirc, religion wasn't even a part of the want to keep Jahi on the vent, in the early days of this case. I think it was added, thanks to the atty and others who then glommed-on.

~jmo~

 

[vlpate]

Rest in Peace angel. I wish they would let this baby go home.

 

[shana]

Ack, here I was, posting about aspiration pneu...not relevant in Jahi's case, imo.

FAR more significant would be if anyone fed Jahi solid food (even just a small bite) post-op. We shall see if that rumor/report turns-out to be verified by onlookers or staff, or if it is even in the least bit accurate at all.

More so, the allegations about suctioning...far more consequential if proven true.

Or finally, perhaps Jahi just died from complications having nothing to do with anyone's actions or 'blame'.

Cut to chase...I've been reading here all along...sometimes it seems much ado when the case boils-down simply to a mother in denial and some persons who support her for whatever reasons including their own. That is their personal business, beliefs included, but I surely don't want laws to change as a result.

~jmo~

 

[shana]

Somewhat O/T, about wikipedia:

I've been a longtime supporter. Of course, I realize that an entry of interest is not definitive on the subject. I read the Article then click the Talk tab. I look further into the History if I want to learn more about how the topic has been developed over time.

Oftentimes the links provided on the Article or Talk tabs can be helpful too.

I think of wiki as a start to my research.

I read Jahi's Article a few days ago...it is evolving, as it should be.

~jmo~

 

[Elley Mae]

]iirc, religion wasn't even a part of the want to keep Jahi on the vent, in the early days of this case.[/B] I think it was added, thanks to the atty and others who then glommed-on.

~jmo~

bbm,
Right, iirc it was extended for three days for family to say goodbye. Or that's what I remember anyway.

 

[dh109977]

After a busy weekend of working I check in and am saddened to see that this is still going on. Poor baby has been gone a month. Let her rest already. As for the people in this family's town. OMG are they pumping the koolaid right into the houses. How is it an entire town is ok with this?

 

[threecrazykids]

<modsnip>

IMO it's been fairly evident that Jahi's mother shows her expression of love via food. There has seemed to almost be a mini "obsession" with the entire food aspect of this case.

The fact that Jahi was obese PRIOR to the surgery is the first indication. And I understand others don't want to be mean and call her that, but medically speaking I would tend to believe that obesity DOES play a factor in several facets of care - otherwise doctors wouldn't find it necessary to factor that in. Doctors don't call a child "thick" or "chubby" - they call it what it is because I believe obesity in and of itself requires extra attention.

THEN we have the fact that the mother giving her food because oh my gosh she's STARVING. No, she wasn't starving. Plain and simple - Jahi wasn't a breastfeeding infant - she was old enough to know that when doctors orders say NO FOOD you have NO FOOD. Let ALONE the fact that the mother blatantly ignored orders and so did the GM who KNEW BETTER. AGAIN, it's about providing FOOD as a source of comfort and express love towards her.

Then, the obsession has continued with the incessant requests that a feeding tube be inserted because they honestly believed that if she could just get her food and nutrients she'd be happy and pull out of this. She had to "rest" due to her lack of nutrition by the big bad wolf CHO and of course now that she's got her food back she's "improving" or "stable", etc.

Her mother seems to equate food as Jahi's "lifeline" of happiness and survival.

I would like to think they told her that the feeding tube isn't going to change the status of her brain - however she's not going to believe it. Jahi and her connection (even before she was born) was her supplying nutrients and food to her body - so that is how she associates with Jahi by showing her "love".

 

[Harmony 2]

Rumors are not allowed! Therefore, discussion about the rumors is not allowed.

eta: Please stay on topic... There are a lot of unrelated topics being discussed...Thanks

 

[oceanblueeyes]

<modsnip>.

So, "if" (when) the family files lawsuit/s, such as negligence (malpractice), the patient records of the PICU nurses will be evidence. Whatever happened, or not, will be supported in the records. And IF there are witnesses, such as nurses, or other families of patients, they will be investigated and potentially deposed as witnesses.

I have every confidence that the nurse's notes will reflect what happened.

The situation, at present, calls for patience of curiosity. It will all unfold in due time, IMO.

I have been continuously reading all the thought provoking posts about this sad case but haven't posted.

But let me ask you a question please.

Wouldn't the nurse have to see these things occurring with their own eyes to document it in the records? Why would a nurse standby and allow this to happen in the first place? Are you saying that the family was left alone and no nurse was there tending to Jahi at the time?

As far as the rumors that is exactly what I consider they are. When my son had his tonsils and adenoids removed plus tubes put in his ears he didn't want anything to eat at all. We had to coax him even later on when they had moved him to his room to even eat some ice cream and then he would cry and complain he didn't want it because it hurt to swallow.

Rumors are commonplace in many cases and in the end they turned out to be just that a lot of times.

While I do not agree with Jahi's family continuing to push back what has already happened, I don't have any valid basis to believe the rumor mill either. I just find them farfetched in various ways. First, that they were feeding her a hamburger, and she really ate it, and secondly. that the nurses allowed this to happen or weren't even in the room with Jahi and if they weren't then how do they know what happened.

imo

 

[Wolfie]

How is it an entire town is ok with this?

Pretty sure that most of the town isn't okay with this.

 

[Donjeta]

http://christiannews.net/2014/01/01...een-claims-hospital-is-starving-her-daughter/

&#8220;When she got moved to ICU, there was a 30-minute wait until any family member could go see her,&#8221; her grandmother, Sandy Chapman, told reporters. &#8220;Upon entry, they saw that there was way too much blood.&#8221;

&#8220;She had to have four blood transfusions. She had two liters of blood pumped out of her lungs, not including what was in her stomach,&#8221; she continued. &#8220;There was an enormous amount of blood, and we kept asking, &#8216;Is this normal?&#8217; Some nurses said, &#8216;I don&#8217;t know,&#8217; and some said, &#8216;Yes.&#8217; There was a lot of uncertainty and a lack of urgency.&#8221;

If they pumped blood out of her stomach they would presumably also have noticed if there were bits of food in it.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

<modsnip>

IMO it's been fairly evident that Jahi's mother shows her expression of love via food. There has seemed to almost be a mini "obsession" with the entire food aspect of this case.

The fact that Jahi was obese PRIOR to the surgery is the first indication. And I understand others don't want to be mean and call her that, but medically speaking I would tend to believe that obesity DOES play a factor in several facets of care - otherwise doctors wouldn't find it necessary to factor that in. Doctors don't call a child "thick" or "chubby" - they call it what it is because I believe obesity in and of itself requires extra attention.

THEN we have the fact that the mother giving her food because oh my gosh she's STARVING. No, she wasn't starving. Plain and simple - Jahi wasn't a breastfeeding infant - she was old enough to know that when doctors orders say NO FOOD you have NO FOOD. Let ALONE the fact that the mother blatantly ignored orders and so did the GM who KNEW BETTER. AGAIN, it's about providing FOOD as a source of comfort and express love towards her.

Then, the obsession has continued with the incessant requests that a feeding tube be inserted because they honestly believed that if she could just get her food and nutrients she'd be happy and pull out of this. She had to "rest" due to her lack of nutrition by the big bad wolf CHO and of course now that she's got her food back she's "improving" or "stable", etc.

Her mother seems to equate food as Jahi's "lifeline" of happiness and survival.

I would like to think they told her that the feeding tube isn't going to change the status of her brain - however she's not going to believe it. Jahi and her connection (even before she was born) was her supplying nutrients and food to her body - so that is how she associates with Jahi by showing her "love".

I have a question about the obesity issue. Was the weight gain caused by her sleep apnea problems and if her tonsils were greatly enlarged? I have read countless articles now by medical professionals that state those with sleep apnea have weight gain due to fluid retention build up. I have even seen some posters say once their sleep apnea was in control they lost up to 40 pounds that was caused by fluid retention.

I do think Jahi's family is clinging to false hope and her mom needs intervention to bring her back to the stark reality that Jahi is gone from this earth and only her body remains. But I think every mother thinks about feeding their children. Or at least caring mothers do. It fits with her delusional thinking because she still sees Jahi as a child in need. So I don't hold it against her when she thinks her child has been starved and needs to be fed. This is a woman who is not thinking with her brain but with her heart instead and the love she has for her daughter.

It is such an unreality to all of us looking in with clearer minds and not having the emotional connection to Jahi that her mother has. A mother's bond with her child is like no other, imo.

My wish for Jahi and her family is for Jahi's heart to stop beating and end all of the false hope that the family clings to. Most everyone knows the end result is going to be the same and Jahi is never coming back to be with them here on earth again.

If her heart stops beating then they can let her go in peace but until that happens they will continue to cling to false hope.

IMO

 

[Sonya610]

I've been on NPO status many times over my adult life. I did not question it, just followed instructions. It wasn't until one of my dogs had eye surgery under a general anesthetic that I had to face the consequences. It was horribly stressful and expensive to have her watched overnight in an emergency vet hospital. Fortunately, she lived!

I like to know "why" instructions are given. From animal surgeries I learned long ago why you don't feed them for at least 12 hours prior to surgery (thankfully I didn't learn it the hard way). Some things may be "not a good idea" but the food before surgery can be truly catastrophic! They are relaxing on the water the night before though presumably because a little water will leave the stomach quickly and is better than dehydration.

 

[Madeleine74]

At some point the family will have to face reality because it sounds like Jahi's body is decomposing and eventually she will get to to a point where it's obvious that she really is deceased. I imagine that healthcare workers will not want to be around a body that gets to a moderate decomposed state.

 

[kaki]

I like to know "why" instructions are given. From animal surgeries I learned long ago why you don't feed them for at least 12 hours prior to surgery (thankfully I didn't learn it the hard way). Some things may be "not a good idea" but the food before surgery can be truly catastrophic! They are relaxing on the water the night before though presumably because a little water will leave the stomach quickly and is better than dehydration.

I have had surgery several times in my lifetime and took the instructions very seriously...especially the do not eat/drink after midnight the night before. Another instruction i remember is to stop taking any medication, supplements, or foods even that could have a blood thinning effect. Cant remember all..but fish oil, ginger....etc. you have to stop these days before surgery.

 

[Sonya610]

At some point the family will have to face reality because it sounds like Jahi's body is decomposing and eventually she will get to to a point where it's obvious that she really is deceased. I imagine that healthcare workers will not want to be around a body that gets to a moderate decomposed state.

I have a feeling that may be happening now and that is why the family is so quiet.

At this point they have basically painted themselves into a corner regarding turning the machines off so if the body is decomposing and this is becoming an unsavory situation what can they do? Turn the machines off and say "Well NOW we have decided she is really dead" after all of this drama so far? So many folks are "waiting for the miracle" and have sent money etc....it seems like the family can't just quit now and decide to pull the plug, instead they may be suffering through an increasingly gruesome bedside situation.

 

[mck16]

http://christiannews.net/2014/01/01...een-claims-hospital-is-starving-her-daughter/



If they pumped blood out of her stomach they would presumably also have noticed if there were bits of food in it.

I cannot imagine them letting anyone other than medical be in the area while they are pumping blood. Or even allow them in the area if there was evidence of blood anywhere. I can imagine Jahi's mother making a scene if she was asked to leave. jmo