Family wants to keep life support for girl brain dead after tonsil surgery #7

[Minette]

I really hope poor little Jahi's heart gives out soon. I am starting to get a whiff of A Rose for Emily in this situation.

And I, too, wonder how they are going to announce the death, or re-death, or second death. My guess is it will be some variation on "Despite the heroic efforts of the dedicated caregivers at Top Secret Healthcare Facility, Jahi McMath passed away today. Her mother's attorney was quoted as saying 'We just weren't able to get her out of CHO in time, her body was too weak from the prolonged withholding of nutrients.'"
/parody

Anyone want to bet me that is how it will play out??

 

[Softail]

I have a feeling that may be happening now and that is why the family is so quiet.

At this point they have basically painted themselves into a corner regarding turning the machines off so if the body is decomposing and this is becoming an unsavory situation what can they do? Turn the machines off and say "Well NOW we have decided she is really dead" after all of this drama so far? So many folks are "waiting for the miracle" and have sent money etc....it seems like the family can't just quit now and decide to pull the plug, instead they may be suffering through an increasingly gruesome bedside situation.

I totally agree. Especially with the whole "she's improving" nonsense. :doh:

 

[threecrazykids]

I really hope poor little Jahi's heart gives out soon. I am starting to get a whiff of A Rose for Emily in this situation.

And I, too, wonder how they are going to announce the death, or re-death, or second death. My guess is it will be some variation on "Despite the heroic efforts of the dedicated caregivers at Top Secret Healthcare Facility, Jahi McMath passed away today. Her mother's attorney was quoted as saying 'We just weren't able to get her out of CHO in time, her body was too weak from the prolonged withholding of nutrients.'"
/parody

Anyone want to bet me that is how it will play out??

I won't bet you because I agree...and I think once the announcement comes (like you said) it will be VERY clear that CHO will be the "reason" for her death.
I don't know though...they may not (for that ONE announcement) put the focus on anything BUT Jahi in an effort to portray that only SHE mattered and that the hospital was nothing but having to "deal with the aftermath of their neglegence". But I think that announcement of suit will come RIGHT on the heels of her death. I think they may even go as far as say "due to the outrage of all of our supporters we simply have to make a statement in the name of Jahi and ensure this NEVER happens to another child ever again" or something along those lines...that it's not JUST them that is necessarily seeking justice, but for EVERYONE who has been wronged by a brain death misdiagnosis.



I have a feeling this whole court case could get VERY ugly.

 

[Peliman]

I really hope poor little Jahi's heart gives out soon. I am starting to get a whiff of A Rose for Emily in this situation.

And I, too, wonder how they are going to announce the death, or re-death, or second death. My guess is it will be some variation on "Despite the heroic efforts of the dedicated caregivers at Top Secret Healthcare Facility, Jahi McMath passed away today. Her mother's attorney was quoted as saying 'We just weren't able to get her out of CHO in time, her body was too weak from the prolonged withholding of nutrients.'"
/parody

Anyone want to bet me that is how it will play out??

Very good, I'll add a little.

A special fund has been set up to build a memorial in Jahi's name for those children after her who need assistance facing the same treatment in other hospitals like CHS.

 

[nrdsb4]

I really hope poor little Jahi's heart gives out soon. I am starting to get a whiff of A Rose for Emily in this situation.

And I, too, wonder how they are going to announce the death, or re-death, or second death. My guess is it will be some variation on "Despite the heroic efforts of the dedicated caregivers at Top Secret Healthcare Facility, Jahi McMath passed away today. Her mother's attorney was quoted as saying 'We just weren't able to get her out of CHO in time, her body was too weak from the prolonged withholding of nutrients.'"
/parody

Anyone want to bet me that is how it will play out??

Yes, I believe you are absolutely right.

 

[Madeleine74]

If the ventilator is stopped then the heart will stop. It's beating not of its own accord but because it is being forced via mechanical intervention. That doesn't seem to be enough to prevent decomp. I guess it's kind of like if I hook up a slab of meat to a mechanical machine to make it move and force oxygen into it. The meat will move, but it's not alive.

 

[Isabelle]

If anyone is ever tempted to eat a huge breakfast an hour or so before general anesthesia, think twice about withholding that information from your anesthesia provider. Your life may depend on honesty. Really.

Aspiration pneumonitis is, in essence, a chemical burn of the lung tissue from the stomach acid and stomach contents regurgitated into the airway (passively, under anesthesia, often during intubation, and again during extubation). It can kill you. Really.

This is a nice explanation:

Mendelson's syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



http://medicalmalpracticeexplained.com/aspirations_pnumonitis.html

Edited to add-- ANY anesthesia, not just general anesthesia. The most risky anesthetic is a sedation case, because the patient is spontaneously breathing. Just a few seconds of inattention on the part of the anesthesia provider, or failure to comply with preop instructions by the patient, can mean the difference between life and death.

I've had 3 elective surgeries with general anesthesia. I was given pre op instructions that included npo after midnight the night before surgery. I was never given a reason for the npo status and nothing to that effect was included on the computer generated pre op orders. As an RN, I knew the reasons. Education of patients is necessary to insure that they understand what they are instructed to do and not do and it must include information they can understand. I wonder how often written instructions are given to people who cannot read and are too ashamed to admit it. Thanks for letting this R N get on her soapbox!

 

[popsicle]

"What could they be thinking?" Laurence McCullough, a professor at the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told USA Today. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20140113,0,3203320.story#axzz2qIfdrUJI

eta look at the 9am comment by G

 

[Softail]

Keeping Jahi McMath on ventilator is 'crazy,' expert says

Medical ethicists are criticizing the unnamed facility that agreed to keep the body of 13-year-old Jahi McMath on a ventilator after transferring her from an Oakland hospital, saying it will only delay the inevitable while potentially causing long-term financial and emotional harm to her family.

Jahi's case has been widely criticized by medical experts who have emphasized that people who are declared brain-dead are no longer alive. At least three neurologists confirmed Jahi was unable to breathe on her own, had no blood flow to her brain and had no sign of electrical activity three days after she underwent surgery Dec. 9 to remove her tonsils, adenoids and uvula at Children's Hospital Oakland and went into cardiac arrest, causing extensive hemorrhaging in her brain.

After waging a public relations battle with the hospital, Jahi's family members won a court order keeping her on a ventilator, and eventually permission to transfer her to an undisclosed care facility. Medical ethicists are blaming the operators of that facility for perpetuating misconceptions of brain death that have dogged the Jahi case since her family went public.


"What could they be thinking?" Laurence McCullough, a professor at the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told USA Today. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20140113,0,3203320.story#ixzz2qIfhPCUH

That's for sure! :crazy:

 

[kaki]

I really hope poor little Jahi's heart gives out soon. I am starting to get a whiff of A Rose for Emily in this situation.

And I, too, wonder how they are going to announce the death, or re-death, or second death. My guess is it will be some variation on "Despite the heroic efforts of the dedicated caregivers at Top Secret Healthcare Facility, Jahi McMath passed away today. Her mother's attorney was quoted as saying 'We just weren't able to get her out of CHO in time, her body was too weak from the prolonged withholding of nutrients.'"
/parody

Anyone want to bet me that is how it will play out??

I have read that a healthy person can last up to 8 weeks without food..if they are getting hydration. (Especially if they have excess body fat)

Skinny Gandi lasted 21 days fasting and he wasnt getting proper hydration.

Of course none of this will keep family/attorneys from spinning the story to their advantage.

 

[mck16]

Keeping Jahi McMath on ventilator is 'crazy,' expert says

Medical ethicists are criticizing the unnamed facility that agreed to keep the body of 13-year-old Jahi McMath on a ventilator after transferring her from an Oakland hospital, saying it will only delay the inevitable while potentially causing long-term financial and emotional harm to her family.

Jahi's case has been widely criticized by medical experts who have emphasized that people who are declared brain-dead are no longer alive. At least three neurologists confirmed Jahi was unable to breathe on her own, had no blood flow to her brain and had no sign of electrical activity three days after she underwent surgery Dec. 9 to remove her tonsils, adenoids and uvula at Children's Hospital Oakland and went into cardiac arrest, causing extensive hemorrhaging in her brain.

After waging a public relations battle with the hospital, Jahi's family members won a court order keeping her on a ventilator, and eventually permission to transfer her to an undisclosed care facility. Medical ethicists are blaming the operators of that facility for perpetuating misconceptions of brain death that have dogged the Jahi case since her family went public.


"What could they be thinking?" Laurence McCullough, a professor at the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told USA Today. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ilator-20140113,0,3203320.story#ixzz2qIfhPCUH

That's for sure! :crazy:

Is there anything an ethics board could do? Could they step in and take her body? There should be something to stop this. jmo

 

[Frigga]

"What could they be thinking?" Laurence McCullough, a professor at the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told USA Today. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...#ixzz2qIfhPCUH

Is it just me or does it strike anyone else as offensive for a professor at a college to use the term "crazy" when describing this scenario? It just bothers me. Mental illness has enough stigma attached to it, and I do not believe for one moment that Jahi's mother or anyone else caring for her daughter (disagree as I may with the circumstance) IS mentally ill. There is a lot going on here, but mental illness isn't one of them, and it bothers me when individuals use this term so flippantly.

 

[Donjeta]

Somewhat OT, but interesting.

Two-thirds of U.S. adults (66%) say there are sometimes situations when a patient should be allowed to die, while about three-in-ten (31%) say that under all circumstances medical personnel should do everything possible to save a patient’s life. The view that sometimes a patient should be allowed to die has remained the majority position in Pew Research surveys since 1990. However, the share of the public that says there are circumstances in which a patient should be allowed to die has declined slightly over that period. More adults express an opinion today than did so in 1990, and the share of adults who say doctors and nurses always should do everything possible to save a patient’s life has grown.

Compared with 1990, all age groups are now more inclined to say that medical personnel always should do everything possible to save a patient’s life. However, this change over time is especially pronounced among younger generations.6

Overall views about end-of-life medical treatment are strongly associated with religious affiliation as well as race and ethnicity. White Catholics (80%) and white mainline Protestants (76%) are particularly likely to say there are circumstances in which a patient should be allowed to die. A majority of white evangelical Protestants (68%) also hold this view. By contrast, a majority of Hispanic Catholics (66%) and 54% of black Protestants say medical staff should do everything possible to save a patient’s life in all circumstances.

Whites are more inclined than either blacks or Hispanics to say there are some circumstances in which a patient should be allowed to die.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/11/21/views-on-end-of-life-medical-treatments/

 

[Madeleine74]

This case is not about allowing someone to die. This case is about someone who already died and is being delayed burial so their body can be forced to receive mechanical ventilation.

But no matter. There is no way to stop decomposition entirely unless the body is put through a plastination process where special epoxies are injected through every part of the body.

Therefore, Jahi will continue to decompose, regardless of any amount of prayer or faith. The laws of nature can be delayed but ultimately not denied. I'm sure it's a variable amount of time depending on many factors, but at some point the amount of decay will be severe enough that measures will have to be taken for the welfare and safety of the staff attending to the deceased Jahi.

 

[Donjeta]

I have read that a healthy person can last up to 8 weeks without food..if they are getting hydration. (Especially if they have excess body fat)

Skinny Gandi lasted 21 days fasting and he wasnt getting proper hydration.

Of course none of this will keep family/attorneys from spinning the story to their advantage.

Dr Byrne said she was getting sugar water at CHO so her situation was not exactly the same as the people starving and fasting without any nourishment.

Byrne did say, however, that her condition is worsening because she is being fed a diet of "sugar water" at the hospital. He said Jahi needs to receive better nutrition and needs repair on her pituitary and thyroid glands.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/loca...ahi-McMath-Family-Must-Arrange-237554381.html

 

[rob]

"What could they be thinking?" Laurence McCullough, a professor at the Center for Medical Ethics and Health Policy at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, told USA Today. "Their thinking must be disordered, from a medical point of view. ... There is a word for this: crazy."

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...#ixzz2qIfhPCUH

Is it just me or does it strike anyone else as offensive for a professor at a college to use the term "crazy" when describing this scenario? It just bothers me. Mental illness has enough stigma attached to it, and I do not believe for one moment that Jahi's mother or anyone else caring for her daughter (disagree as I may with the circumstance) IS mentally ill. There is a lot going on here, but mental illness isn't one of them, and it bothers me when individuals use this term so flippantly.

I took the 'crazy' to mean the medical personnel, not the family. If I was a Dr or an RN, I feel certain that knowing what brain death means, I would not be able to do surgery on the person.

 

[nrdsb4]

Did attorney Dolan take down his Facebook page? Couldn't find it and wondered if all the negative reviews that he can't take down played a factor. Or maybe I just need more coffee this am.

 

[shana]

I like to know "why" instructions are given. From animal surgeries I learned long ago why you don't feed them for at least 12 hours prior to surgery (thankfully I didn't learn it the hard way). Some things may be "not a good idea" but the food before surgery can be truly catastrophic! They are relaxing on the water the night before though presumably because a little water will leave the stomach quickly and is better than dehydration.

Just to clarify: I did not feed my dog anything after 8 pm as instructed, but someone else in my home apparently did. (He denied it.)

I've shared my life with dogs and cats for many decades and follow all of the vet's instructions to the letter, just as I do with those given to me (3 abdominal surgeries and many procedures under general anesthesia, sleep sedation also, etc).

My point as well is that the NPO instruction needs to be explained clearly with description of its consequences, and preferably outloud in addition to written. (Thanks, Isabelle!)

~jmo~

 

[Donjeta]

Maybe it was used in one of the other senses of the word crazy?

crazy  
Use Crazy in a sentence
cra·zy [krey-zee] Show IPA
adjective, cra·zi·er, cra·zi·est.
1.
mentally deranged; demented; insane.
2.
senseless; impractical; totally unsound: a crazy scheme.
3.
Informal. intensely enthusiastic; passionately excited: crazy about baseball.
4.
Informal. very enamored or infatuated (usually followed by about ): He was crazy about her.
5.
Informal. intensely anxious or eager; impatient: I'm crazy to try those new skis.
6.
Informal. unusual; bizarre; singular: She always wears a crazy hat.
7.
Slang. wonderful; excellent; perfect: That's crazy, man, crazy.
8.
likely to break or fall to pieces.
9.
weak, infirm, or sickly.
10.
having an unusual, unexpected, or random quality, behavior, result, pattern, etc.: a crazy reel that spins in either direction.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crazy

Senseless, impractical, unsound, bizarre might apply.

 

[NevadaMom]

Can someone with legal expertise answer something that's been bothering me about all this ... even if the coroner does an autopsy the chances of finding a definitive cause of death is slim to none due to the body healing while on the vent. If NW is going to pursue malpractice or wrongful death, or anything else she thinks she can file against the hospital), how is the probable lack of answers going to impact the case? They won't honestly find the hospital at fault without rock solid evidence would they?

Or is it more likely that it's being pushed along in hopes that CHO and their insurance take the path of lease resistance (payout to avoid court)?

The longer this goes on, the less chance there is for answers.

I'm not sure anyone will know this, but at what point does the degenerating body become a public health concern?