FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

[CathyinTexas]

While that might be true, no one witnessed who started the physical confrontation. The girlfriend on the phone can't say who pushed who.
So GZ says he didn't and no one can contradict him. And it appears GZ was the one witness (more than one) saw on the ground.

This is getting more nonsensical. We know that Trayvon was fleeing from a stranger who was pursuing him. We know that he was cornered or confronted by this stranger. This stranger had a gun pointed at him. So would he really push this person? I hope to God reason and logic will rule in this situation. Also, if it is determined that Trayvon was screaming for his life, it will prove GZ was not defending himself but attacking a child.

 

[rossva]

BBM

Neither here nor there. Just because he doesn't own the property, he lives there and owns items on the property. I don't think he was protecting the neighborhood from people stealing the actual property, he was protecting items on the property.

Not to mention the following...

Also of note from this article is this...

<SNIPPED>

and last but certainly not least....
Records show Zimmerman is not the owner of the townhome where he lives in the gated Sanford community.

So it appears that Mr. Zimmerman is protecting a neighborhood in which he doesn't even own the property.

http://www.ky3.com/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-20120320,0,3736784.story?page=1

 

[daisy7]

This is a good point and it definitely seems to be the way LE reads this ordinance, however, I see it differently.

GZ LOST his right to stand his ground when HE became the AGGRESSOR and after LE told him to stop. So really, the only person in this situation that had a right to stand his ground was Trayvon.

Someone mentioned early on that LE was failing to read their own statute with common sense. I think that is true. No where in that statute does it say you may follow and confront an individual and then shoot them if they fail to answer the way you think they should.

LE, and many talking heads, are using this "stand your ground" as an EXCUSE for LE's failure to fully investigate and uphold the laws of the state of Florida. It is just an excuse and in my opinion, it is a really poor excuse.

Salem

PS - I'm not yelling in those caps up there, just passionately stating my opinion.

:clap:

 

[annalia]

Why would anyone feel the need to defend themselves from someone following him? Why not just keep on walking and ignore him? As I stated upthread in my opinion, perhaps Martin thought Zimmerman did make a racial slur, turned around and came after him. becoming the agressor.

Wow, seriously? In other words, Tray had no right to fear for his life by being followed by an unknown adult.

What about when this strange adult comes up right upon him after he thought he stopped following him, did Tray have the right to fear that HIS life might be in danger?

How would Tray have heard GZ make the racial slur? They weren't in that close proximity when he was with 911 and he wasn't speaking that loudly, he was actually mumbling, that's why people are claiming to hear different things. Tray was also on the phone with his girlfriend, it sounds pretty far fetched that Tray overheard that.

JMHO

 

[JeannaT]

This is getting more nonsensical. We know that Trayvon was fleeing from a stranger who was pursuing him. We know that he was cornered or confronted by this stranger. This stranger had a gun pointed at him. So would he really push this person? I hope to God reason and logic will rule in this situation. Also, if it is determined that Trayvon was screaming for his life, it will prove GZ was not defending himself but attacking a child.

We don't know any of those things, actually.

We know that Trayvon was fleeing from a stranger who was within earshot calling LE. I'm quite certain GZ didn't have a gun pointed at him, or a physical confrontation in which GZ was bloodied and on the ground would not have happened. The gun was clearly NOT drawn until well into the physical confrontation - no one in their right mind would engage in a physical battle while holding a loaded gun, and no one would try to fight a man carrying an obvious gun.

 

[rossva]

100 percent plausable as your specualtion a few posts above it. Martin talking on his phone, not really paying attention to what Zimmerman is saying, thinks he hears a racial slur, whips around and attacks him. Prove that didn't happen.

Talk about rampant speculation and leaps of logic....That one has leaped into the bizarre IMO

 

[Sensei]

At one point in George's call, the dispatcher asks him for his condo number, and he refuses to give it because he doesn't want Trayvon to hear it and know where he lives (is how I took it).

So Trayvon was within clear earshot of Zimmerman at that time, and must have been aware he was calling LE.

Does anyone else come to that conclusion? Why would Tray then run, knowing this was a very nosy citizen who was calling LE?

If that idea had any merit, then at the point that GZ says to the dispatcher, "He's running" and then follows it up with the, "these @#$% always get away", he would have been perfectly free to give any information that he needed to since by his own admission, the suspicious black kid had just fled the scene and was in no danger of overhearing so that he could follow GZ home and do any harm.

 

[Marshmallow]

Why is it that when it comes to Tray it's constantly being called an attack?

Would Tray not have the same rights and protection to defend himself against an unknown adult who was following him? That unknown adult who took it upon himself and made the choice to pursue and innocent kid? Any bumps or bruises on GZ somehow proves that Tray was the aggressor?

How many bruises and injuries did Tray have on him?

JMHO

well there was the gunshot wound...

 

[rossva]

That is your opinion, not a fact. No one knows when the weapon was "unconcealed" by Zimmerman.

This is getting more nonsensical. We know that Trayvon was fleeing from a stranger who was pursuing him. We know that he was cornered or confronted by this stranger. This stranger had a gun pointed at him. So would he really push this person? I hope to God reason and logic will rule in this situation. Also, if it is determined that Trayvon was screaming for his life, it will prove GZ was not defending himself but attacking a child.

 

[Velouria]

If Trayvon has a record we will never see it because he is a juvenile.

As previously stated more than once in this thread:

Trayvon had no criminal record.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html?_r=1

 

[mikeysmommom]

I would say that the Grand Jury should be prepared to state why no charges are brought. If they just meet, decide and keep the basis for the decision from the public - I guarantee it will start riots.

Given what was audible without expert help in the 911 calls, in my opinion, GZ overstepped the boundaries of a neighborhood watch captain and of any "stand your ground" excuse he might come up with. The Grand Jury will need to address how the aggressor can commit murder and get away with it.

Salem

Riots! That is what I have a serious problem with,violence and threats of riots should not even be a factor.GZ should only face charges if it is found he did not act within the law.If threats of rioting is out there then I really feel sorry for GZ.Even if he acted within the law he may be charged just to keep people from rioting,does not seem fair to me. I was only a young child when riots happened in Newark NJ but family members who were older and lived there told us what happened and it was not pretty.Newark never recovered and it really did nothing but get a lot of young black Americans killed.If anyone happened to be outside after curfew the National Guard would shoot to kill and then take pick up trucks filled with dead bodies to the dumps to dispose of them.No one wins when that happens.

 

[JeannaT]

If that idea had any merit, then at the point that GZ says to the dispatcher, "He's running" and then follows it up with the, "these @#$% always get away", he would have been perfectly free to give any information that he needed to since by his own admission, the suspicious black kid had just fled the scene and was in no danger of overhearing so that he could follow GZ home and do any harm.

I think he was within earshot at the time. Considering the tenor of the conversation with the dispatcher, I can't see any other reason whatsoever for him to state he didn't want to give out that information. Surely he doesn't care if the dispatcher has the info. He didn't want Tray to over hear it.

 

[Velouria]

Because innocent people are never arrested?

Sure, why not? Apparently it's okay in Sanford to shoot innocent people in cold blood and claim self defense.

If it matters, GZ was not found innocent of those charges for battery and resisting arrest.

 

[HiHater]

At one point in George's call, the dispatcher asks him for his condo number, and he refuses to give it because he doesn't want Trayvon to hear it and know where he lives (is how I took it).

So Trayvon was within clear earshot of Zimmerman at that time, and must have been aware he was calling LE.

Does anyone else come to that conclusion? Why would Tray then run, knowing this was a very nosy citizen who was calling LE?

GZ specifically says he doesn't want to give it out, because he doesn't know where Trayvon is at.

BUT we do know that GZ later went to FIND him.

 

[HiHater]

We don't know any of those things, actually.

We know that Trayvon was fleeing from a stranger who was within earshot calling LE. I'm quite certain GZ didn't have a gun pointed at him, or a physical confrontation in which GZ was bloodied and on the ground would not have happened. The gun was clearly NOT drawn until well into the physical confrontation - no one in their right mind would engage in a physical battle while holding a loaded gun, and no one would try to fight a man carrying an obvious gun.

No one would engage in battle with a 9mm in their waistband.

 

[raeann]

At one point in George's call, the dispatcher asks him for his condo number, and he refuses to give it because he doesn't want Trayvon to hear it and know where he lives (is how I took it).

So Trayvon was within clear earshot of Zimmerman at that time, and must have been aware he was calling LE.

Does anyone else come to that conclusion? Why would Tray then run, knowing this was a very nosy citizen who was calling LE?

No....not at all....it was that he didn't want it on the 911 recording as he KNEW something was about to happen IMO....and he also didn't want it going out over the radio to LE as it would then be heard on scanners etc. which also can be accessed to be replayed by the public or media.

 

[LambChop]

This is a good point and it definitely seems to be the way LE reads this ordinance, however, I see it differently.

GZ LOST his right to stand his ground when HE became the AGGRESSOR and after LE told him to stop. So really, the only person in this situation that had a right to stand his ground was Trayvon.

Someone mentioned early on that LE was failing to read their own statute with common sense. I think that is true. No where in that statute does it say you may follow and confront an individual and then shoot them if they fail to answer the way you think they should.

LE, and many talking heads, are using this "stand your ground" as an EXCUSE for LE's failure to fully investigate and uphold the laws of the state of Florida. It is just an excuse and in my opinion, it is a really poor excuse.

Salem

PS - I'm not yelling in those caps up there, just passionately stating my opinion.

You have to wonder if GZ had not had the gun would he have listened to LE and waited until they arrived. My husband always said when you carry a handgun it is a potential weapon against you if you ever lost control of it in an altercation. To me that is the best reason for security in a Neighborhood Watch program not to carry guns.

Will this present legal issues between the HOA and their insurance company if the HOA sanctioned this watch service for their community? I would not be surprised to see TM's parents will go for a wrongful death suit. jmo

 

[Marshmallow]

imagine being Mr Martin. You go to the store, walking home you are chit chatting your girl of your phone. you notice a car following you, you do not know who it is. this car continues to follow you. then the person (you do not know but know is not a police officer) gets out of their car, starts following you, may suddenly appear in front of you ..or catches up to you and confronts you, starts ordering you to do something like "stop" or come with them and then when you try to avoid them (remember you do not know this strange man who is trying to force you to do something) this complete stranger then pulls out a weapon and in an instant you cease to live.
how is that not aggressive on Mr Zimmerman's part? this young man only saw stranger following him, chasing him, possibly physically and verbally bullying him. If this young man did fight back, how is that not self defense? Mr Zimmerman made himself the aggressor, Mr Zimmerman had choices and chose to have this all happen.

 

[Sensei]

100 percent plausable as your specualtion a few posts above it. Martin talking on his phone, not really paying attention to what Zimmerman is saying, thinks he hears a racial slur, whips around and attacks him. Prove that didn't happen.

The problem is that GZ is going to have to prove that it DID.

And he's going to have to fight uphill to do it, since by all accounts, his school principle, his friends and others, TM was not a hothead, and did not have a string of violent encounters behind him to indicate that he would physically attack someone because he thought he might have overheard a racial slur....

Where there is no denying that GZ was the one who pushed for a confrontation, being told that police were on their way and that he did NOT need to follow anyone, he did anyway....He admits that he confronted and asked TM what he was doing....and at the time that happened, GZ was NOT on his phone, only TM was....so there is ample evidence that the sudden attack because of a racial slur, real or percieved is unlikely in the extreme.

 

[JeannaT]

So Trayvon's girlfriend has not submitted a statement to LE, and her parents want her ONLY talking to the attorney?

Um hm.

I don't think LE has any way to use her statement as any kind of evidence if they don't even have it - they have what the lawyer is saying she said.

Can she be subpeoned for the grand jury?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/traynor-ma...-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017#.T2oGBXZWAYY