FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain

[Adrienne37]

Any kind of correct information adds to an understanding of what happened IMO. When there are continual discreptancies, it only tends to muddy the waters. The timeline has been way off from the beginning. Much has been made of GZ's 'cop wannabe' *attitude*. Shouldn't we also be curious as to the *attitude* of TM that night? So far, in what I've read, we don't have knowledge of which of these persons was calling for 'help' before the shooting. At least one of the witnesses first said it was GZ, and that's what GZ himself said to LE. TM's father said the voice wasn't that of his son. GZ, at least in my opinion, didn't sound 'out of control' on the 911 call he made. And he didn't sound like he was *running*, as he was able to maintain a conversation with the 911 operator. I think it would be important to know if TM did leave his home *during the game* simply to get snacks. Or if TM left his home say after an argument with his father, and that's why his father didn't go out to look for him. Why did his father call police to see if he'd been arrested as his only method of 'looking for him'. If GZ 'chased him down and shot him in cold blood' then he should be charged with that crime. But before making a judgement on any of this, I for one, would like to know everything that would/could/might play into the dynamics of that night. :moo:

The fact that TM's father said 'he'd brought TM to this place to 'work out' what ever reason he was suspended from school for, IMO, does play a role. Especially if, as I'd read, TM's mother 'takes him to school each day'. If that is the case, then why is he excessively late enough to get suspended? Does anyone else recall whether TM had just started at this school a number of weeks earlier? I *thought* I'd read that he'd recently changed schools? Something like six weeks earlier. That would have put the change after the xmas holidays? No reason other than it being another piece of the puzzle. Just curious again. Did he just start at this new school and was already suspended? I can't recall for sure, and hopefully I'm not confusing this with another case, but I distinctly recall hearing *some* mother say 'I drove him to school each morning' in an interview on TV. This was early on, when this case was first brought to the attention of the general public. Much like with any case, each piece of information is another puzzle piece IMO. And in order to see the whole picture, we have to have pieces that fit together. :moo:

There is no puzzle in this case. We aren't trying to determine who the shooter is, that's already known. The VICTIM'S actions in the previous 17 years of his life is completely and totally irrelevant. If anything, perhaps people should delve deeper into the background of the MURDERER in this case. Trayvon is a VICTIM, nothing is going to change this fact. GEORGE ZIMMERMAN is a MURDERER who should be locked up and charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER.


~jmo~

 

[Isabelle]

Have 911 tapes been released?

 

[gracielee]

Have 911 tapes been released?

Yes, they were released late Friday night, and I listened to all of them, including GZ's. I found them on a local Florida TV station site.

 

[gracielee]

There is no puzzle in this case. We aren't trying to determine who the shooter is, that's already known. The VICTIM'S actions in the previous 17 years of his life is completely and totally irrelevant. If anything, perhaps people should delve deeper into the background of the MURDERER in this case. Trayvon is a VICTIM, nothing is going to change this fact. GEORGE ZIMMERMAN is a MURDERER who should be locked up and charged with FIRST DEGREE MURDER.


~jmo~

So tell me then, when did TM leave the residence he was staying at that night? Was it, as stated by his father 'during the basketball game' which began at 7:30 pm?

 

[Adrienne37]

So tell me then, when did TM leave the residence he was staying at that night? Was it, as stated by his father 'during the basketball game' which began at 7:30 pm?

He went to get Skittles and iced-tea at the local convenience store. Good grief - can our young teenagers not be allowed to walk to the store now days to get snacks without having to be worried about someone chasing them down with a 9 mm handgun and blowing their brains out?

 

[momshrink]

One of the things I love about WS is the Victim friendly environment. Victims, especially minors, do not ask to be killed. Was Caylee killed because she cried too much or was a bother when her mother wanted to party? Was Trayvon killed because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time or because he was suspended or because a strange adult followed and tried to detain him for purposes unknown to Trayvon? Black males have reason to be alarmed if an unknown white man pursues them, especially in an unfamiliar environment. Trayvon must have been terrified. Let's not blame the victim. JMO

 

[annalia]

Any kind of correct information adds to an understanding of what happened IMO. When there are continual discreptancies, it only tends to muddy the waters. The timeline has been way off from the beginning. Much has been made of GZ's 'cop wannabe' *attitude*. Shouldn't we also be curious as to the *attitude* of TM that night? So far, in what I've read, we don't have knowledge of which of these persons was calling for 'help' before the shooting. At least one of the witnesses first said it was GZ, and that's what GZ himself said to LE. TM's father said the voice wasn't that of his son. GZ, at least in my opinion, didn't sound 'out of control' on the 911 call he made. And he didn't sound like he was *running*, as he was able to maintain a conversation with the 911 operator. I think it would be important to know if TM did leave his home *during the game* simply to get snacks. Or if TM left his home say after an argument with his father, and that's why his father didn't go out to look for him. Why did his father call police to see if he'd been arrested as his only method of 'looking for him'. If GZ 'chased him down and shot him in cold blood' then he should be charged with that crime. But before making a judgement on any of this, I for one, would like to know everything that would/could/might play into the dynamics of that night. :moo:

The fact that TM's father said 'he'd brought TM to this place to 'work out' what ever reason he was suspended from school for, IMO, does play a role. Especially if, as I'd read, TM's mother 'takes him to school each day'. If that is the case, then why is he excessively late enough to get suspended? Does anyone else recall whether TM had just started at this school a number of weeks earlier? I *thought* I'd read that he'd recently changed schools? Something like six weeks earlier. That would have put the change after the xmas holidays? No reason other than it being another piece of the puzzle. Just curious again. Did he just start at this new school and was already suspended? I can't recall for sure, and hopefully I'm not confusing this with another case, but I distinctly recall hearing *some* mother say 'I drove him to school each morning' in an interview on TV. This was early on, when this case was first brought to the attention of the general public. Much like with any case, each piece of information is another puzzle piece IMO. And in order to see the whole picture, we have to have pieces that fit together. :moo:

my bolding

How does that play a role in his murder?
How would that be a piece of the puzzle in his murder?
How does who his father called afterwards play a role in his murder?

Why does it matter if he left the house right before the game or during the game? We know what time he was walking back from the store, we know what time GZ encountered him, we know what time GZ decided all on his own that this was another *advertiser censored****** who looked like he was on drugs and decided all on his own that he needed to get out of his car to pursue him. The important fact is that he was walking back from a store with iced tea and skittles.

It's not uncommon that in the rush to get info out in the very beginning sometimes small details get confused, but what's important are the overall facts. The fact that he was suspended or why he was suspended if his mother was driving him to school doesn't amount to a hill of beans to him getting gunned down.

ETA: GZ's attitude as a wannabe cop is what put everything in motion leading to the death of a 17 year old kid.

JMHO

 

[rossva]

I don't believe anywhere it says he left at halftime, or during the actual game.. The NBA All Star gane was in Orlando, and the local stations had hours and hours of pregame coverage.




"Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said."

That's why I'd like to know the time he left his home, the time he was at the convenience store, etc. Because the stories about 'watching the game' and 'halftime', don't fit the timeframe.

 

[RANCH]

Because it's completely and totally irrelevant. What Trayvon's parents said or didn't say has absolutely no bearing on this case or the fact that George Zimmerman is a murderer!!

I just have to wonder if Trayvon was white, if anyone would be asking these types of questions.

BBM.
If all other things in this hypothetical being equal to this case, I would hope that the same questions would be asked. Otherwise were talking about racism on the parties asking these questions.

 

[SuziQ]

Not that this has anything to do with Tray's death....but my son is on time for school everyday but late for some of his seven classes during the day. He won't admit to it, but I'd bet he's walking a pretty young thing to her classes. Typical teen behavior and kinda cute in a chilvarous way if you ask me. School is not like it was when we were kids when being suspended was indicative of being a bad kid. Kids are forced to behave like robots now and if they stray just a bit they get suspended, I kid you not.

I know we all want to know why GZ shot Tray for no apparent reason. There just has to be a reason there just has to be right? Wrong. There is rarely a reason for murder that makes one think "Ah ok, now I get it". IMO, the reason for GZ's behavior is not going to be found in many areas this discussion is going.

 

[Salem]

Hi peeps. Seems like it's getting a little hot in here... :hot:

Please remember your IMOs and JMOs and :moo: s.

It's entirely possible to disagree with another poster's interpretation in a manner that is respectful and not aggressive. In fact, we expect that out of our sleuthers. And it's absolutely paramount when emotions start running high.

(Please note that disagreeing respectfully does not mean posting "With all due respect," in front of snarky or aggressive comments or questions. Mods have special goggles to see through that kind of thing.)

Sometimes folks just have to agree to disagree. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Everyone take a breath.

Where this post lands is random.

Bumping Ynot's post here. Also, I want to remind everyone that it appears LE is NOT investigating this case. If LE is not going to do an investigation, then it makes even more sense for sleuths to ask the hard questions.

There are several posts that question the importance of Tray's suspension. BUT think about it like a sleuth..... what do we know from the suspension, that we wouldn't have known if no one had asked? We KNOW that Tray WAS NOT violent. His suspension was NOT for violent behavior. He was a GOOD kid. That is darn important.

While asking hard questions may be emotionally upsetting sometimes, it helps to look at it from both sides of the issue - how does it help the investigation? How does it hurt? Where it hurts, what information is needed to correct the hurt? Where can that information be found?

Don't mean to preach here, but just to remind everyone that the more information available, the more we might understand what happened and the more the cry for the justice might be heard.

LE needs to investigate this. If they read here - they might get an understanding of WHY they need to investigate.

Salem

 

[Angelonline]

Slightly off topic, since I do not think it has a darn thing to do with this young mans murder. In regards to school suspensions I have 4 daughters 2 of whom have graduated from our local high school and 1 in the 11th grade. The are all great students. One of the graduates was suspended from school for uniform violations, which IMO was ridiculious. Her violation was forgetting her belt twice and a tiny whole in her shirt sleeve one time. The 11th grade daughter was almost suspended this year for tardies, she first got an in school suspension (ISS) and was threatened with an out of school suspension (OSS) if late again this year. The reason for her lateness? She has 4 minutes to get to classes. 2 of her classes (3rd and 4th period) are all the way across the campus from each other. Running is not allowed, bathroom breaks are only allowed 2 per semester in any one class all others are to be taken between classes. So she has to do a very fast walk from one class to the other, not stopping for any reason, not going to her locker or the bathroom, or else she doesn't make it on time. I have talked to her teacher about it and she says she is sympathetic but rules are rules and she gives out a number of displinary actions every day for tardies.... By the way this daughter is an all A honor student, ranks 22nd out of 364 students and is in the schools gifted program.. Now back to the discussion I just wanted to point this out for those saying "why was he late for school if his mother drove him" or "schools don't normally give out OSS for tardies".

 

[belle3]

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html

Use of Deadly Force for Lawful Self-Defense

Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.

Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

This is just a portion of what is at the link. Very interesting read that i believe will aid in this discussion.

 

[Salem]

belle3 - did it say anything about the use of firearms by LE? I would think that this GZ is being considered LE at this point EVEN THOUGH he was just a SELF-APPOINTED neighborhood watch captain.

It might be good to look at those standards?

Salem

 

[Yoda]

Bumping Ynot's post here. Also, I want to remind everyone that it appears LE is NOT investigating this case. If LE is not going to do an investigation, then it makes even more sense for sleuths to ask the hard questions.

There are several posts that question the importance of Tray's suspension. BUT think about it like a sleuth..... what do we know from the suspension, that we wouldn't have known if no one had asked? We KNOW that Tray WAS NOT violent. His suspension was NOT for violent behavior. He was a GOOD kid. That is darn important.

While asking hard questions may be emotionally upsetting sometimes, it helps to look at it from both sides of the issue - how does it help the investigation? How does it hurt? Where it hurts, what information is needed to correct the hurt? Where can that information be found?

Don't mean to preach here, but just to remind everyone that the more information available, the more we might understand what happened and the more the cry for the justice might be heard.

LE needs to investigate this. If they read here - they might get an understanding of WHY they need to investigate.

Salem

Thank you.

 

[Adrienne37]

belle3 - did it say anything about the use of firearms by LE? I would think that this GZ is being considered LE at this point EVEN THOUGH he was just a SELF-APPOINTED neighborhood watch captain.

It might be good to look at those standards?

Salem

The role of a neighborhood community watch captain is nothing more than a liaison between local law enforcement and the residents of the neighborhoods in which they are volunteering for. Why and how could he be considered law enforcement?

So in essence, if neighborhood watch captains are considered law enforcement, all of these captains across the US will now have the right to chase and murder innocent people who might just be out for a leisurely stroll if they happen to look or act suspicious? Wow, I guess I'm glad I'm not living in a neighborhood.

 

[belle3]

Honestly, I only looked up the self defense statute for.carrying concealed weapons, since gz is claiming self defense. I really believe gz knew all about this if he was licensed to carry a weapon, and, if how some have reported, he was s criminal justice student. At the very least it seems he would be guilty of manslaughter. All imo

 

[Yoda]

I don't believe anywhere it says he left at halftime, or during the actual game.. The NBA All Star gane was in Orlando, and the local stations had hours and hours of pregame coverage.




"Trayvon Martin was shot dead after he took a break from watching NBA All-Star game television coverage to walk 10 minutes to a convenience store to buy snacks including Skittles candy requested by his 13-year-old brother, Chad, the family's lawyer Ben Crump said."

In an earlier post there is a link to one of many msm articles that said half time. There is also a link to the family attorney saying he left during the game. According to when TM was shot and the NBA site, linked earlier, TM was shot before the game began.

 

[Adrienne37]

From the Akron Ohio Neighborhood Watch Program...

http://publicsafety.ci.akron.oh.us/police/pdf/neighborhood_watchblock.pdf

From the Sacromento County Sheriff's Office....

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prevention/documents/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm

From Hillsborough County Florida....

http://www.hillsboroughcounty.org/onr/resources/publications/2011/NWIntrobookletrev610.pdf.pdf

 

[Yoda]

Slightly off topic, since I do not think it has a darn thing to do with this young mans murder. In regards to school suspensions I have 4 daughters 2 of whom have graduated from our local high school and 1 in the 11th grade. The are all great students. One of the graduates was suspended from school for uniform violations, which IMO was ridiculious. Her violation was forgetting her belt twice and a tiny whole in her shirt sleeve one time. The 11th grade daughter was almost suspended this year for tardies, she first got an in school suspension (ISS) and was threatened with an out of school suspension (OSS) if late again this year. The reason for her lateness? She has 4 minutes to get to classes. 2 of her classes (3rd and 4th period) are all the way across the campus from each other. Running is not allowed, bathroom breaks are only allowed 2 per semester in any one class all others are to be taken between classes. So she has to do a very fast walk from one class to the other, not stopping for any reason, not going to her locker or the bathroom, or else she doesn't make it on time. I have talked to her teacher about it and she says she is sympathetic but rules are rules and she gives out a number of displinary actions every day for tardies.... By the way this daughter is an all A honor student, ranks 22nd out of 364 students and is in the schools gifted program.. Now back to the discussion I just wanted to point this out for those saying "why was he late for school if his mother drove him" or "schools don't normally give out OSS for tardies".

I also feel bad for the students punished because their parents could not get them there on time (my son's friend has been in detention twice this semster because his mom is always running late- and he cant ride the bus because he is out of district.)